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Clay Thornton

Posse Marshall

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What are your opinions on who qualifies to be a good Posse Marshall for State and above matches.   Not complaining about any of the Posse Marshalls that I have ever had, just curious as to if their are formal requirements?

 

The Posse Marshalls that I have had in the past have done a great job of keeping the posse moving, knowing the rules, making sure that everyone had fun, etc. Again no complaints just curious?

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Imagine that I referenced the Shooters manual and found it!  Classic!

 

Ok what are the intangibles that make for a good Posse Marshall?

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- Keeps things moving without being a hardass

- Explains stages well without confusing shooters

- Ensures people get relief from job duties

- Passing off the timer when there is confusion about a call while they work it out so things do not screech to a halt

- Patient with newer or physically challenged shooters

 

There are more, but that are the big ones

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Stirrup Trouble did hit the "big ones".  Most of the ones we use for our state match have a great reputation of being posse marshals at many shoots.  That's always a big plus.  They should be pretty current on their RO training and re-certification.  I've been setting up posses for years and have learned what type of shooter needs what type of marshal as all shooters and PM have their own personality, preferences, etc.  

 

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Posted (edited)

I think the "RO" requirement to be way overrated.

 

Some of the best PM's were old school SASS folks that never even took an RO course... And I've encountered many that think they are awesome and ready to go cuz they got their pin.

 

:o

 

PM's should of course know the rules... But they need to also focus on respecting each shooters desires and goals for the match.

 

Phantom

 

PS: They should also be ready to work their butts off!! Some just volunteer to be PM's for the little trinkets they get and off load most of their responsibilities to other posse members.

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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The really good ones bring ice cream for the posse between stages on hot days and "beverages" for after the shoot.:lol:

 

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Humility.  Anyone who doesn’t recognize the important responsibility shouldn’t have the job.

 

Focus first on safety, then on giving each competitor every advantage the rules allow (another way of saying don’t be a hard ass.)

 

Allow the Posse Members to help as much as possible— running the timer, consulting on questions.  The best ones are managers, not dictators.

 

 I don’t like being a Posse Marshal because it is hard to do well and I tend to worry a lot.  It is much easier to shoot and spot and pick up brass.  Bless the good ones, they are a gift to our sport.

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What makes a good RO...Hmm

 

Knowing the rules, being honest and fair, anticipate the unexpected, stay attentive, make sure that the posse is in a flow with the other posse's, know when to hand the timer off, be lighthearted but firm and most of all.....keep it fun for everyone.

 

There's more to it obviously, a good personality helps.

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I’ve been fortunate to have some very good PM. I’ve never done it at a state shoot, did do a 2 day annual. It’s a tough job. I appreciate every one of them! 

 

One PM who I had never shot with before said that his job was to give his posse the best chance at success, within the rules. I thought that was a good job description. 

 

My “pet peave” is PMs who roll their eyes if they don’t agree with your miss count. I take spotting seriously. I try to remain focused and make sure of my call. If I’m not SURE it’s a miss, I call it a hit (per the rules). I heard a PM make a comment that “the buddy system” is alive here because of a split call. 2 spotted had clean, 1 had a miss. The PM was sure it was a miss, and he could have been right, but I can only call what I see. After his second comment about it to another posse member I told him I called what I saw, and did not appreciate his hinting that I was helping a pard. My best friend or a total stranger, I call what I see. And if my pard has a miss, I call it, just as I expect him to call it on me. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

off load most of their responsibilities to other posse members.

I'm gonna disagree with you here, Phantom.  Management is all about delegation to competent people.  I hate it when a PosseM leaves it to the Range Gods (or me, the designated scorekeeper) to find replacement workers.  That being said, Oklahoma Charlie and I can flat run a posse.

1 hour ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

The best ones are managers, not dictators.

 

Engrave this in stone.

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Well, since you asked;

 

Posse Marshal Code of Chivalry - The Song of Roland


A Posse Marshal Code of Chivalry was documented in an epic poem called 'The Song of Roland'. The 'Song of Roland' describes the 8th century Posse Marshals of the Dark Ages and the battles fought by the Emperor Charlemagne. The code has since been described as Charlemagne's Posse Marshal Code of Chivalry. The Song of Roland was written between 1098-1100 and described the betrayal of Count Roland at the hand of Ganelon (who was not a very good PM and frequently received Spirit of the Game). Roland was a loyal defender of his liege Lord Charlemagne and his code of conduct became understood as a Posse Marshal code of chivalry. The Posse Marshal Code of Chivalry described in the Song of Roland and an excellent representation of the Posse Marshals Codes of Chivalry are as follows:

 

To fear God and maintain His Church
To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
To protect the weak and defenceless
To give succour to widows and orphans
To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
To live by honour and for glory
To despise pecuniary reward
To fight for the welfare of all (all shooters)
To obey those placed in authority (The Match Director)
To guard the honour of fellow Posse Marshals
To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
To keep faith 
At all times to speak the truth (and follow the SHB)
To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
To respect the honour of women
Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
Never to turn the back upon a foe
 

What?.......It could be real....you don't know.

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12 minutes ago, MizPete said:

I'm gonna disagree with you here, Phantom.  Management is all about delegation to competent people.  I hate it when a PosseM leaves it to the Range Gods (or me, the designated scorekeeper) to find replacement workers.  That being said, Oklahoma Charlie and I can flat run a posse.

Engrave this in stone.

We'll just disagree here...or perhaps my wording is not precise.

 

PM's that simply read the stage instructions and then go to their cart and focus on THEIR game are lousy PM's and perhaps lousy managers...besides, as "management", the further down one goes in the chain of management command, the more hands on management becomes...do we really want to stick with this analogy???

 

Phantom

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Yeah, well, what you're talking about is people not doing their job.  That's different.  I have only once in my life ratted out an incompetent PosseM to a match director, but this would do it.

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Just now, MizPete said:

Yeah, well, what you're talking about is people not doing their job.  That's different.  I have only once in my life ratted out an incompetent PosseM to a match director, but this would do it.

I know of a fellow that regularly PM's for WR and EOT...

 

He has a good group of folks that do a good job of running the posse...but he's a minimalist...that's a nice way of describing his participation.

 

;)

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm gonna disagree with you here, Phantom.  Management is all about delegation to competent people.  I hate it when a PosseM leaves it to the Range Gods (or me, the designated scorekeeper) to find replacement workers.  That being said, Oklahoma Charlie and I can flat run a posse.

Engrave this in stone.

Lead from the front, set the tone and lead the Posse! 

 

Have to agree with Phantom, read the instructions and disappear into the masses not a good way to go.  PM should be in my humble opinion be setting the mood and tone for the posse. One thing your right management is a delegating and that's why management has no business being in around the term leading, and your leading a posse to safely shoot 12 stages.

 

 

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I have found most Posse Marshals to be significant contributors to a successful, safe, and fun day. I do think it would improve participation if at the first stage the PM explains his/her approach for the Posse. This gives them a chance to "briefly" explain the need for participation, any unique range safety rules, introduction of new shooters, etc. Sometimes I find the PM and the Posse to assume everyone knows the range/club rules and how to be a participant.

 

Again, I have had really good PMs but not all have taken the 5 minutes at the first stage to give the Posse a heads up.  I have had Phantom as a PM at HoL and it was, as I said after the match, one of the best posses I have ever been with. Everyone participated, followed rules, asked questions, helped others, and asked about people's hydration as we went along.

 

It may sound corny, but I want to be the kind of PM that adds to the posse's experience in a positive manner. So I am carefully reading the comments on this topic. Keep them coming. 

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4 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

There's more to it obviously, a good personality helps.

One other thing is to know in advance exactly what to do in case of an emergency, and immediately, solidly take charge. 

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A good PM doesn't get personally invested in the outcome of calls. 

 

When I PM I'm satisfied if I observed what happened, reported it, and made a call in accordance with the rules.  At that point I don't care what the final resolution is, I've done the best I could.

 

I think SASS requires at least RO1 for State and above matches and I think they're right to do so, even though we know that rule is rarely followed.  I've seen plenty of 'experienced' SASS shooters who are way out of date in their understanding of the rules.

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12 hours ago, BootStrap Phil said:

Lead from the front, set the tone and lead the Posse! 

 

Have to agree with Phantom, read the instructions and disappear into the masses not a good way to go.  PM should be in my humble opinion be setting the mood and tone for the posse. One thing your right management is a delegating and that's why management has no business being in around the term leading, and your leading a posse to safely shoot 12 stages.

WAIT!  What?  I'm NOT supposed holler for the "NEXT VICTIM!"  I'm NOT supposed to tell 'em "...now get yer guns & GET OFF MY STAGE!"  I'm crushed...

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51 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

A good PM doesn't get personally invested in the outcome of calls. 

 

When I PM I'm satisfied if I observed what happened, reported it, and made a call in accordance with the rules.  At that point I don't care what the final resolution is, I've done the best I could.

 

I think SASS requires at least RO1 for State and above matches and I think they're right to do so, even though we know that rule is rarely followed.  I've seen plenty of 'experienced' SASS shooters who are way out of date in their understanding of the rules.

And I've seen MANY RO1/RO2 pin wearers that don't know jack!

 

That "Pin", in many cases, is meaningless.

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7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And I've seen MANY RO1/RO2 pin wearers that don't know jack!

 

That "Pin", in many cases, is meaningless.

Well I've seen posts by black pins that made me almost agree with you (shudder), but I think you go wrong with the MANY part of that statement.  If you had said SOME you would be closer to the truth.

 

The pin that I put in a fair amount of effort to earn may be meaningless to you, but since your views are pretty much meaningless to me it kind of balances out. 

 

It's not surprising to me that you would come on here and make an inflammatory statement like that.  One that insults many people who have given freely of their time to try to ensure SASS rules are understood widely and enforced evenly.  To you their effort and time spent for SASS are meaningless.....typical Phantom.  Soon you'll be talking about context....

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image.jpeg.bcf5d0ad4bc229dae2e2a754faa15081.jpeg

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Just like any form of education, theory vs. practical experience. Practical experience always trumps theory. I agree with Phantom, there are many "trained" RO's that are not capable to run a posse. I had the same discussion with Coyote Calhoun and Quick Cal many years ago. All I got was the deer in the headlights look. They didn't want to address the fact that some folks won't ever be able to run the show, they just aren't quick enough and don't have the demeanor. 

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5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

Well I've seen posts by black pins that made me almost agree with you (shudder), but I think you go wrong with the MANY part of that statement.  If you had said SOME you would be closer to the truth.

 

The pin that I put in a fair amount of effort to earn may be meaningless to you, but since your views are pretty much meaningless to me it kind of balances out. 

 

It's not surprising to me that you would come on here and make an inflammatory statement like that.  One that insults many people who have given freely of their time to try to ensure SASS rules are understood widely and enforced evenly.  To you their effort and time spent for SASS are meaningless.....typical Phantom.  Soon you'll be talking about context....

Sometimes facts inflame and insult those that need it.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Just like any form of education, theory vs. practical experience. Practical experience always trumps theory. I agree with Phantom, there are many "trained" RO's that are not capable to run a posse. I had the same discussion with Coyote Calhoun and Quick Cal many years ago. All I got was the deer in the headlights look. They didn't want to address the fact that some folks won't ever be able to run the show, they just aren't quick enough and don't have the demeanor. 

RO Instructors aren't necessarily supposed to be good at running posses.  They're supposed to have a good understanding of the rules and be able to effectively transmit that understanding to RO students.

 

The idea behind RO certification is related more to the concept that if you're going to be the authority on that stage and hold the timer you should probably have a decent understanding of the rules.  Having said that, just because you understand the rules doesn't mean you have all the other qualities that a good PM needs.  The RO certification is a starting point, not a final qualification.


So, since you agree with Phantom you also believe the RO pin is meaningless?

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Yes, the RO1/RO2 classes are not enough to be a good PM, You need the disposition to do it. The desire to be a good PM.

At least the RO1/RO2 pins are an "indication" they know what's going on. The Match Directors will have to determine the rest.

And... PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT"S GOING ON!!! Not just PMs, but ALL match officials.

If you can't pay attention to what's happening, don't be an official. Period!!!

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32 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

RO Instructors aren't necessarily supposed to be good at running posses.  They're supposed to have a good understanding of the rules and be able to effectively transmit that understanding to RO students.

 

The idea behind RO certification is related more to the concept that if you're going to be the authority on that stage and hold the timer you should probably have a decent understanding of the rules.  Having said that, just because you understand the rules doesn't mean you have all the other qualities that a good PM needs.  The RO certification is a starting point, not a final qualification.


So, since you agree with Phantom you also believe the RO pin is meaningless?

The RO training can be an integral component of becoming a good Posse Marshall. Some folks have lousy reading comprehension, some don't have good listening comprehension.  We used a type of apprenticeship program before the RO classes.started in 2000. Everyone wasn't on the same page.

To answer your question, not totally meaningless. Considering no one ever fails the test, is it that meaningful?

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How useful the training turns out to be is directly related to how much effort the student puts into it and how good the instructor is, not much different from any other training.  For some people it will be very helpful and they'll be much better TOs for having taken it.  For others it won't do much at all.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And I've seen MANY RO1/RO2 pin wearers that don't know jack!

 

That "Pin", in many cases, is meaningless.

 

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The idea behind RO certification is related more to the concept that if you're going to be the authority on that stage and hold the timer you should probably have a decent understanding of the rules.  Having said that, just because you understand the rules doesn't mean you have all the other qualities that a good PM needs.  The RO certification is a starting point, not a final qualification.

 

Aren't you two saying the same thing, just in different terms? Asking for a friend....

Tully

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11 minutes ago, Tully Mars said:

 

 

Aren't you two saying the same thing, just in different terms? Asking for a friend....

Tully

Hi Tully,

 

I don't think so.  I'm not going to try to restate Phantom's point, it seems clear to me.  My point isn't that the pin is meaningless, my point is that the pin by itself doesn't qualify someone to be a TO or PM.  I don't think that's the point he is making. 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Hi Tully,

 

I don't think so.  I'm not going to try to restate Phantom's point, it seems clear to me.  My point isn't that the pin is meaningless, my point is that the pin by itself doesn't qualify someone to be a TO or PM.  I don't think that's the point he is making. 

 

I see the above bolded portion, as kind of making the "PIN" meaningless, if the only thing the PM or RO brings to the posse is an understanding of the rules. Being a good posse leader is so much more than just knowing the rules. That's no disrespect to an RO or PM in question, but rather a statement that just maybe they're not suited to running a posse above the monthly match level until they are more seasoned. 

 

Not to speak for Phantom, but that's how I interrupted what he was saying as well. Allie told me it would help if I learned Phantomise, but I'm having a hard time with my version of Rosetta Stone. :) 

 

I'm moving on...

 

Tully

Edited by Tully Mars
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Just for the record, can you guys clarify which one is Trump and which one is Pelosi? :huh:

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

Just for the record, can you guys clarify which one is Trump and which one is Pelosi? :huh:

Lol. If my answer counts I’m Trump and he’s Pelosi. He probably thinks I’m deplorable, I feel the same way about him that I do about Pelosi, and I don’t wear dresses or makeup, so it fits.:lol:

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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1
 Advanced issues found
 
 
2
18 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Tell Allie :P, we probably are..

 

It's totally childish...but...hey, it's the world we live in today.

 

:rolleyes:

 

17 hours ago, Tully Mars said:

 

I see the above bolded portion, as kind of making the "PIN" meaningless, if the only thing the PM or RO brings to the posse is an understanding of the rules. Being a good posse leader is so much more than just knowing the rules. That's no disrespect to an RO or PM in question, but rather a statement that just maybe they're not suited to running a posse above the monthly match level until they are more seasoned. 

 

Not to speak for Phantom, but that's how I interrupted what he was saying as well. Allie told me it would help if I learned Phantomise, but I'm having a hard time with my version of Rosetta Stone. :) 

 

I'm moving on...

 

Tully

Hey! I can get into enough trouble on my own without any help. ;) Sheesh, I haven't even posted of this thread.

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