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44w.c.f. bullet recommendations for BP


Idaho Bob

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I’m looking for a good bullet to use with black powder 44-40.  I’ve used badman bullets in the past for 45-70 and 45colt with good results, but they are a hard cast bullet. I’m curious if there is a better option out there. The 44-40 is a new endeavor and the firearms in question all have .430” bores (I have loaded about 100 rounds of 44wcf in the past, so I’m familiar with the issues with these cases, for the most part).  I’m thinking a softer alloy with SPG might be the answer as I believe the .427” bullet would bump up a little better than a hard cast.  But I could be mistaken.   I really don’t want to mess with using an oversized expander die for the 44’s if I don’t have to, as I’ve been warned that the soft cases may not take the abuse? I haven’t tried it.   The firearms in question haven’t made it to my hands yet, so this is info Ive acquired from the sellers. I have no idea if the chambers are as large as the bites, but I’m assuming not. 

What are your favorite bullets for BP 44-40’s? 

And I’m all ears if anybody wants to offer loading tips and advice for the 44-40.  Best dies? I’ve read that my usual favorite, Lee, isn’t the best choice for this particular cartridge. 

I appreciate the help. I’m sure there are more than a few who have gone down this road before me. 

-Idaho Bob 

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An alternative I've seen people do is get boolits from Desperado Bullets, and before loading them into the rifle, dip the tips into bp friendly loob.  But yes, you'll be getting that loob all inside the mag tube.  People deal with it to shoot on the dark side.

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27 minutes ago, Idaho Bob said:

Best dies? I’ve read that my usual favorite, Lee, isn’t the best choice for this particular cartridge. 

 

Triple Tap.

 

I've been using my Lee Dies for 44.40 since 2010 with no problems.

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Vote #3 for Springfield Slim/Whyte Leatherworks Big Lube.

 

 

2nd choice Missouri Bullet BP lubed works well in a short barrel(<= 20")

 

3rd Choice - Any bullet with Lizard Litter filler and a dab of Crisco(unsalted).

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Cemetery said:

 

Triple Tap.

 

I've been using my Lee Dies for 44.40 since 2010 with no problems.

Thank you!  I’ve used lee dies for everything I’ve loaded in the past with excellent results. I do have a couple sets of rcbs dies for my bolt guns, but even those get finished with a Lee FCD. 

I’ll go checkout the Big Lube bullets. 

Thank you for the help! 

And thank you to El Hombre as well! 

I appreciate it! 

-Idaho Bob 

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Just now, Tyrel Cody said:

Vote #3 for Springfield Slim/Whyte Leatherworks Big Lube.

 

 

2nd choice Missouri Bullet BP lubed works well in a short barrel(<= 20")

 

3rd Choice - Any bullet with Lizard Litter filler and a dab of Crisco(unsalted).

 

 

Thank you! 

-IB

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6 minutes ago, Idaho Bob said:

Thank you!  I’ve used lee dies for everything I’ve loaded in the past with excellent results. I do have a couple sets of rcbs dies for my bolt guns, but even those get finished with a Lee FCD. 

I’ll go checkout the Big Lube bullets. 

Thank you for the help! 

And thank you to El Hombre as well! 

I appreciate it! 

-Idaho Bob 

Lee dies should be fine. I prefer the rcbs cowboy dies myself. A little more cost but they seem to work so much better than any other dies I’ve tried. 

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It's all about the lube.

Springfield Slim has been casting & selling the BigLube MAV Dutchman boolit for a long time & they carry so much lube, that they are as accurate at the end of the match as they were at the beginning.

In the image, it is on the left.

I get mine sized to 428 or 429 for Rossi or Uberti rifles

The other two are the Snakebite Greasewagon (38) and the El Paso Pete Ultimate Gamer (45)

biglubes.jpg

--Dawg

 

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5 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

It's all about the lube.

Springfield Slim has been casting & selling the BigLube MAV Dutchman boolit for a long time & they carry so much lube, that they are as accurate at the end of the match as they were at the beginning.

In the image, it is on the left.

I get mine sized to 428 or 429 for Rossi or Uberti rifles

The other two are the Snakebite Greasewagon (38) and the El Paso Pete Ultimate Gamer (45)

biglubes.jpg

--Dawg

 

Thank you!  I was just looking at his site. I’ll be ordering a batch here to give a try. Are the Mav Dutchman’s a little better than the standard 44-40? 

I will be shooting ubertis and a Rossi. 

Thank you! 

-IB 

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1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

I personally don't like the Lee Factory Crimp for 44WCF. Prefer RCBS Cowboy or Redding Profile crimp die.

 

I'm with you Tyrel, Lee Factory crimp is fine for BP, not so with smokeless..I have just ordered the Redding profile crimp die.

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Mav Dutchman's are THE BULLET to shoot in a black powder 44-40 round.

--Dawg

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7 hours ago, Idaho Bob said:

Thank you!  I was just looking at his site. I’ll be ordering a batch here to give a try. Are the Mav Dutchman’s a little better than the standard 44-40? 

I will be shooting ubertis and a Rossi. 

Thank you! 

-IB 

 

Yes, but myself I prefer the 180gr Mini Mav. If you know for certain your bores are .430 then there's no need to have them sized to .427. I have to use .428 in my Uberti rifles, but they're a little older guns. Current production are supposed to be able to handle .430.

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As all have already said....Sprinfield Slim!!!

For CAS - Bug Lube Mav Dutchman.
If using a full case of BP where the bullet sits on top of the powder....Slim also casts the Lyman 427098 crim on or just above the driving band.!!!

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I thought I might add. 

I used the Big Lube cast by Springfield Slim for the following shots.

Smokeless Powder
6.4gr Trail Boss (CAS LOADS)

1/2" group @ 25 yards
2 1/8" Group @ 100 yards
Others @ 100 yards (scope front mount set screw got loose)
Yellow Target - after new front mount block installed - 4"x4" target (each block is 1") @ 100 yards

265 yard shots VIDEO:  265 Yard Target ("thud/pop" sound)
What I did not do was get a sight photo of the 265 yard "sight picture".

Target "sight picture" is close to the bottom of the scope (max adjustment).

Gonna have to get some more bullets Springfield Slim!!

65599931_1206258989554682_5253329728445612032_n.jpg

UBERTI Winchester 73' with Malcolm scope by Hi-Lux

 

 

66751638_1216875738493007_7896403742856052736_n.jpg

Scope Photo: 100 yard target in scope sight while compared to 25 yard target to left! 

 

 

 

66420980_360371958009858_7587162872023613440_n.jpg

1/2" Group @ 25 yards

 

 

 

66736831_1541907572607517_6149979025650483200_n.jpg

2 1/8" Group @ 100 yards

 

 

 

66192968_425135041422625_5394968769091076096_n.jpg

Front mount set screw and poor sized block, see story here: Malcolm Scope Blog

 

 

 

67088140_1216875625159685_6181460792332779520_n.jpg

Final results with Biglube Bullets, 6.4gr of Trail Boss and a scope 16 shots @ 100 yards!!!

Yellow Target - after new front mount block installed - 4"x4" target (each block is 1") @ 100 yards

15 of 16 shots are inside a 4 1/16" circle.

 

 

 

66720087_1218410951672819_6111091584298647552_n.jpg

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Howdy

 

I will jump on the 200 grain Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bandwagon. I have been using it exclusively in all my 44-40 and 44 Russian rounds for years now.

 

That huge lube groove carries enough lube to keep the bore of a rifle lubed with soft lube for its entire length. Years ago I used to pan lube regular hard cast bullets with beeswax/Crisco, but the skimpy lube grooves did not carry enough lube to keep a rifle bore lubed its entire length. The last six inches or so of the bore would be starved for lube and a hard crusty build up of fouling would affect accuracy. I tried a few other brands of 'BP bullets' back then, but none carried enough lube to keep a rifle barrel lubed the entire length.

 

Once I discovered the Big Lube family of bullets I never looked back. I used to cast my own, but these days I too buy them from Springfield Slim.

 

Here is the Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bullet stripped of lube, filled with lube, and loaded into a 44 Russian and 44-40. The green lube is Slim's homemade stuff, it works fine.

 

44%20Russian%2044-40%20and%20Mav-Dutchma

 

 

 

 

The standard diameters Slim sizes his Mav-Dutchmans to are .427 and .429. My rifles (five of them at last count) all slug to either .427 or .429. Nothing in between. Are you sure your rifling grooves are .430? Did you slug it? Standard for Uberti rifles these days is .429.

 

Anyway, I compromised on .428 for all my 44-40 and 44 Russian cartridges. Seems to work fine. Is the bullet actually bumping up in the bore? Who knows, but accuracy is always fine out of my .429 Uberti Henry. I always ask Slim to size my bullets to .428 and he always obliges. Just got a batch a couple of months ago along with a batch of PRS 250 grain .452 for 45 Colt.

 

Dies? Hell, I've been using a standard RCBS set of dies for years, before the Cowboy dies existed. Yes, I use the Lee factory crimp die only on my 44-40 and 38-40 loads because standard seating/crimp die does not squeeze the crimp enough to squeeze any errant bullet lube out of the crimp. The FCD does that. I only use it with 44-40 and 38-40.

 

Tips?

 

Before setting up your dies, set aside a few bullets and pieces of brass to make up some dummy 'try' rounds. Don't bother trimming your brass, I have never trimmed any in almost 20 years. Go through your collection of 44-40 brass and measure a few. Select a few of the longest pieces to use as your 'try' rounds. Set up your dies so there is just a hair, a few thousandths, of space between the tippy top of the case mouth and the underside of the top of the crimp groove.

 

Like this.

 

4440crimpwitharrow.jpg

 

 

 

 

That round was not crimped with the Lee FCD, but you get the idea. The hairline of space will go a long way to keep from crumpling the necks. By setting up using your longest brass, any that are shorter will automatically have a teeny bit more space.

 

 

Since you are going to be using Black Powder, don't sweat the crimp too much. The solid plug of BP in the case will prevent the bullet from telescoping into the case every time the follower slams the whole column back.

 

Smokeless rounds with air inside are a different story. You need as firm a crimp as you can get with them.

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1 hour ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

 

I will jump on the 200 grain Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bandwagon. 

Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.  I just purchased these guns, but don’t have them yet as my FFL was in a fishing trip.  My stated Bore diameters are what was passed along to me from the sellers. I’ll be sure to slug them myself when I get my grubby paws on the guns.  I will be ordering the Mav Dutchman’s but decided to wait until I know for sure what size I need.  I sure appreciate the advice. Thank you! 

-IB 

 

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5 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

I thought I might add. 

I used the Big Lube cast by Springfield Slim for the following shots.

Smokeless Powder
6.4gr Trail Boss (CAS LOADS)

1/2" group @ 25 yards
2 1/8" Group @ 100 yards
Others @ 100 yards (scope front mount set screw got loose)
Yellow Target - after new front mount block installed - 4"x4" target (each block is 1") @ 100 yards

265 yard shots VIDEO:  265 Yard Target ("thud/pop" sound)
What I did not do was get a sight photo of the 265 yard "sight picture".

Target "sight picture" is close to the bottom of the scope (max adjustment).

Gonna have to get some more bullets Springfield Slim!!

65599931_1206258989554682_5253329728445612032_n.jpg

UBERTI Winchester 73' with Malcolm scope by Hi-Lux

 

 

66751638_1216875738493007_7896403742856052736_n.jpg

Scope Photo: 100 yard target in scope sight while compared to 25 yard target to left! 

 

 

 

66420980_360371958009858_7587162872023613440_n.jpg

1/2" Group @ 25 yards

 

 

 

66736831_1541907572607517_6149979025650483200_n.jpg

2 1/8" Group @ 100 yards

 

 

 

66192968_425135041422625_5394968769091076096_n.jpg

Front mount set screw and poor sized block, see story here: Malcolm Scope Blog

 

 

 

67088140_1216875625159685_6181460792332779520_n.jpg

Final results with Biglube Bullets, 6.4gr of Trail Boss and a scope 16 shots @ 100 yards!!!

Yellow Target - after new front mount block installed - 4"x4" target (each block is 1") @ 100 yards

15 of 16 shots are inside a 4 1/16" circle.

 

 

 

66720087_1218410951672819_6111091584298647552_n.jpg

 Jack, 

Nice shootin!   Thank you for the information .  That is the first ‘73 I’ve seen with a scope on it.  I like it!  

-IB 

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Bob, the bullet choice is yours but my recommendation is not the Big Lube Mav Dutchman

Back in history, I bought every Big Lube bullet mold ( including the 44WCF) because for SASS they carried a ton of lube.  I shoot every Big Lube caliber not for lube capacity but for accuracy the furthest distance the bullet caliber was designed for using black powder.  And I sold every Big Lube Bullet mold because of the design weakness for accuracy at at long distances, up to 1000yds

During this hiatus, John Kort (w30wcf) Jack Christian was working on a 44-40 bullet design starting with the original.  His design was the Accurate 43-215C mold which is detailed in the following 4 page post on Cast Boolits.  John Kort convinced me he had perfected a 44WCF bullet that was far superior to the Mav Dutchman and the original 44-40 for lube carrying and accuracy to 300 METERS.  John's scoped groups exceed my iron sights groups to 300 meters but I have pushed it 500 meters with many sighters.  In your best interest for the bullet, after reading John's  My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey ... make up our own mind "the best 44-40 bullet being the Accurate 43-215C or the Big Lube 44-40

 

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey

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22 hours ago, Idaho Bob said:

Excellent article. Thank you Sir!!!! 

-IB 

 

Bob,

If shooting distances for accuracy with BP at long distances is your goal, John Boy hit the nail on the head. The Lyman 42798 and 427098 is superseded by John Kort's 43-215C

Below is a photo of my cast 43-215C bullet compared to some others with the normal two lube grooves. The 43-214C is one I came up with and Tom sent me just today. I will use it with a case load of Reloder 7 (may not be safe in Group I rifles and Revolvers) but will try it with BP later on down the road. I hope the 43-214A shoots as good as it looks. The 43-214A is crimped with the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp die and the bullet, @ an AOL of 1,600, does not touch the rifling on my Marlin 1889 and was the sole reason I designed it. It is nothing more than the nose of the 43-215C and the base of the Lyman 427098, minus the crimp groove and added a little more "meat" on the nose. Dimensions can be seen in the drawing list at the link down below.

If you cast and desire to shoot 30 consecutive shots, or shoot all day with BP without cleaning between shots....again....the 43-215C is superior but for CAS distances and if you choose to purchase your lead, the Big Lube bullet will be fine.

Accurate Mold's 44-40 Bullet Molds

 

64994888_1219083838272197_7536701773709312000_n.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

Today's results with the 43-214A
I plan on testing these with black powder in the future.
I shot 50 rounds @ 100 yards.
CAUTION: Loads could reach 12,000psi/14,000CUP with the posted smokeless powder load.

Aside from the information on each target...over-all shots are as follows...

Shots 1-10, (Target 8-17-19-1, not shown) used to adjust the scope...first adjustment

Shots 11-20 (Target 8-17-19-2, not shown BUT implemented on shown target as black dots) first shots after first scope adjustment.

Shots 21-50, (Target 8-17-19-3) (30 shots to replicate Doc Pardee's 1875 110 yard black powder shots using smokeless powder) labeled as shots 1-30...below photo...and incorrectly shown as "Technically Shots 20-40" which should be 21-50,  first shots after second and last scope adjustment. 

I can't even get through 50 shots without getting confused!!!

 

Recommended bullets for BP;

 

1. 200gr, Big Lube for CAS (crimp grove)

2. 217gr, 43-215C -  (large lube groove)  for long distance (crimp grove)

3. 217gr to 220gr, 43-214A - MAYBE, not tested yet with Black Powder (no crimp grove)
 

8_17_19_2AND3_MEASURED.png

69358814_1242814759232438_8102704637129261056_n.jpg

68895447_1242712742575973_7476840267589353472_n.jpg

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