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Russ The Red

Out of Battery Discharge. Suggestion for repair.

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I had a great weekend shooting Cowboy Iron Man at Border Vigilantes, Briggsdale County Shootists, and Wildcat Ridge. On the final day in the 3rd Stage, I had an Out of Battery Discharge in my 1873 Uberti. The OFB occurred on the ninth round. Fortunately no one was hurt, including the shooter (me) and the TO. I received immediate attention from the TO, the spotters, and the Posse Marshal. We set the gun down and followed safe practices and I was allowed to a reshoot with a different rifle. Here is the current status with my rifle and need for advice:

  1. The rifle is a Uberti (through Taylor's and Company) in caliber 357 mag/38 Special. Serial Number W76710.
  2. I purchased the rifle through Pioneer Gun Works last year (2018) and had it fully tuned.
  3. It was functioning perfectly well until today's OFB.
  4. The safety has not been removed.
  5. I reload using Trail Boss @ 3.5 grains, using 38 Special Brass, Federal Primers, and a 125 grain cast lead bullet (TCFP) from Chey-Cast, with HI-TEK Supercoat coating. I have probably put 2000 rounds through the rifle with the reloads. The OAL is 1.45" minimum to about 1.47" maximum.
  6. There are three pictures below that show the current status of the OFB.
  7. The TO said he believed the bullet from the OFB did go down range.

I am asking for advice about the best way to proceed to get the spent brass out of the lifter and chamber, and handling any bullet that may not have gone down range. My plan is to use a wooden dowel to tap out any bullet and casing. I have given thought to using needle-nose pliers to work on the brass as well.

 

Thank you for any advice.

Russ The Red

 

Bolt Forward Closeup.jpg

Closeup of Bolt in OFB.jpg

20190707_161841_Burst01 (2).jpg

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Needs to be stripped down completely to be cleaned. Also any parts that may have bent, like the finger lever need to  checked. It would really be best to let a professional gunsmith handle this.

 

Now my question. Why did he club award a reshoot for a gun malfunction that wasn't on the first shot?

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I was the Match Director and I was at the loading table. As soon as I heard the OBD I set my pistols on the loading table, and moved forward to access the event and I shut everyone down. Yes, the shooter could have moved to the next shooting position and shot the rest of the stage. However, the shooter was a little confused as were the rest of the posse members including myself. Rather than risk more confusion on the stage I made the determination to allow the reshoot because I shut him down to insure the safety of everyone on the posse. It was a learning experience.

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Well done Assassin, safety of the shooter and posse comes first.  Also the reshoot is finem as the shooters' progress was impeded.  

 

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FULL tear down and remove the case.

If need be-pound the bullet out.

Reassemble, and with 10 dummy rnds do a function test.

Take a sized empty case and put a .010 shim on the back of the casehead.

If the bolt doesn't want to close, you're OK.

If it does close-DON'T FIRE IT:excl:

Good luck,

OLG

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fwiw,,  most out of battery discharges have nothing to do with the lever safety,, but either the cartridge not entering the chamber completely and stopping and the firing pin's inertia overcoming the spring and striking the primer,  or a jam where the shooter starts jerking the lever and the firing pin doing the same thing as afore mentioned action

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Posted (edited)

First, you will need to get the case out of the gun.  You know it has fired, so the case is empty.  But it swelled so the case can neither be pushed into the chamber, nor back into the lifter.   To let you get a spot started where you can bend the brass of the case to clear the lifter, I would carefully drill (or mill, or even fine-point grind) the case where it is bulged to put as large a hole in the case as you can without touching (gouging) either the lifter or the receiver metal with your tools.  If you don't have the skill for this, see a good cowboy gunsmith.   This "relief" hole will give you more room to mash the expanded brass wall of the case back toward the  center of the case, without having to pound hard enough to perhaps further damage the lifter.  

 

Then a brass punch can be used to start shrinking the case down to close to .38 special diameter, so it clears the lifter channel.   Rotating the case carefully with a flat blade may be needed to let you reduce diameter all the way around the case.  When the case is small enough to move through the channel, then the bolt will be able to pull the case out of chamber, or a brass pry tool can pull it out, or a brass squib rod can drive the case out of the chamber.  It won't take a lot of force to mash the thin wall of the case back down to proper size.

 

That will let you disassemble the gun and start checking for damage.   Comparison to known-good parts is an excellent way to spot what has been damaged.  An experienced cowboy gunsmith has pictures in his head of what undamaged parts look like.    Parts which need to be checked for sure are:

* lifter block

* lifter arm

* lever

* lever and lifter springs

* bolt, including extractor and cartridge support tab

* firing pin and spring

* firing pin extension and the connecting hardware the fastens FPE to the bolt

* toggle links

* barrel (for bulges, chamber damage, or even a squib bullet stuck in barrel - yes, I know the TO told you he THOUGHT the bullet left the barrel - but he may be wrong)

 

The Out Of Battery discharge occurred with 3/8" of the case not in the chamber.   Most of these happen because the failing round jammed into something (a previous squibbed bullet stuck in the throat of the rifle is common, as is part of a case broken off from previous round fired that stuck in the front of the chamber) while the case was being chambered, and the free-floating firing pin of the 73 slammed into the primer of the jammed round causing it to fire before being fully chambered.   Usually the case ruptures and makes it pretty easy to get the gun apart.  Your light load just swelled the case rather than rupturing it.   So you get to do a little more work before you (or your smith) can start checking for damage.

 

All this speaks loudly for getting an experienced cowboy gunsmith to perform most of this extraction and inspection.

 

A gunsmith I would trust to check this rifle out is in northwest NM, Ken Griner of Griner Gunworks in the Farmington NM area, but you should have a few that are closer to you - ask fellow club members!  Another - Jared at LongHunter Shooting Supply in Amarillo Texas.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

First, you will need to get the case out of the gun.  You know it has fired, so the case is empty.  But it swelled so the case can neither be pushed into the chamber, nor back into the lifter.   To let you get a spot started where you can bend the brass of the case to clear the lifter, I would carefully drill (or mill, or even fine-point grind) the case where it is bulged to put as large a hole in the case as you can without touching (gouging) either the lifter or the receiver metal with your tools.  If you don't have the skill for this, see a good cowboy gunsmith.   This "relief" hole will give you more room to mash the expanded brass wall of the case back toward the  center of the case, without having to pound hard enough to perhaps further damage the lifter.  

 

Then a brass punch can be used to start shrinking the case down to close to .38 special diameter, so it clears the lifter channel.   Rotating the case carefully with a flat blade may be needed to let you reduce diameter all the way around the case.  When the case is small enough to move through the channel, then the bolt will be able to pull the case out of chamber, or a brass pry tool can pull it out, or a brass squib rod can drive the case out of the chamber.  It won't take a lot of force to mash the thin wall of the case back down to proper size.

 

That will let you disassemble the gun and start checking for damage.   Comparison to known-good parts is an excellent way to spot what has been damaged.  An experienced cowboy gunsmith has pictures in his head of what undamaged parts look like.    Parts which need to be checked for sure are:

* lifter block

* lifter arm

* lever

* lever and lifter springs

* bolt, including extractor and cartridge support tab

* firing pin and spring

* firing pin extension and the connecting hardware the fastens FPE to the bolt

* toggle links

* barrel (for bulges, chamber damage, or even a squib bullet stuck in barrel - yes, I know the TO told you he THOUGHT the bullet left the barrel - but he may be wrong)

 

The Out Of Battery discharge occurred with 3/8" of the case not in the chamber.   Most of these happen because the failing round jammed into something (a previous squibbed bullet stuck in the throat of the rifle is common, as is part of a case broken off from previous round fired that stuck in the front of the chamber) while the case was being chambered, and the free-floating firing pin of the 73 slammed into the primer of the jammed round causing it to fire before being fully chambered.   Usually the case ruptures and makes it pretty easy to get the gun apart.  Your light load just swelled the case rather than rupturing it.   So you get to do a little more work before you (or your smith) can start checking for damage.

 

All this speaks loudly for getting an experienced cowboy gunsmith to perform most of this extraction and inspection.

 

A gunsmith I would trust to check this rifle out is in northwest NM, Ken Griner of Griner Gunworks in the Farmington NM area, but you should have a few that are closer to you - ask fellow club members!  Another - Jared at LongHunter Shooting Supply in Amarillo Texas.

 

Good luck, GJ

Excellent advice here and above, I will second Jared at Long Hunters, excellent gun smith!!   SCJ

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Let me be very clear:  Assassin, the TO, and the nearby Spotter acted in an exemplary manner to ensure my safety and the safety of others in the Posse. Their response was for all intents and purposes instantaneous in stopping my further shooting, assessing any injuries, securing the scene, and taking corrective actions.  They reacted with the utmost attention to safely resolve a very serious set of circumstances with absolutely no lack of attention to medical needs, compliance with rules and guidelines, and standards of practice. While they do not need me to affirm their skills and credibility, I feel a gratitude to show them profound respect.

 

I find the advice and information from Tracker Jack, OLG, and Garrison Joe extremely helpful. I am not a expert gunsmith, and their cautions confirm to me the need for an expert. Maybe I could have cleared the barrel and the chamber and potentially left an unsafe gun behind, waiting for another 2000 rounds before causing the same thing. I want to thank the 3 of you for taking the time to read through the details and providing me a course of action that is safe and prudent. I will let you know what happens.

 

As Assassin said - Lessons Learned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        

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3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

If need be-pound the bullet out.

Sometimes a tightly stuck case can be pressed out through the breech with a long wooden dowl or bronze rod pressed hard against a tree or other immobile object.  I personally don't like trying to hammer them out.  Be sure the carrier will clear the bulged case's rearward travel path.  It probably cannot be easily removed without cutting away the bulged case.  First, I would definitely disassemble the action and suspect that the carrier could be damaged, and lifter arm and/or lever bent.  Also check the toggles and pivot pins for looseness or deformation.   If the breech is cut/eroded by hot gasses, a competent gunsmith needs to repair and verify it.  

Very glad that you and others were uninjured.  An OBD is a serious event.  

 

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4 hours ago, Russ The Red said:

Let me be very clear:  Assassin, the TO, and the nearby Spotter acted in an exemplary manner to ensure my safety and the safety of others in the Posse. Their response was for all intents and purposes instantaneous in stopping my further shooting, assessing any injuries, securing the scene, and taking corrective actions.  They reacted with the utmost attention to safely resolve a very serious set of circumstances with absolutely no lack of attention to medical needs, compliance with rules and guidelines, and standards of practice. While they do not need me to affirm their skills and credibility, I feel a gratitude to show them profound respect.

 

I find the advice and information from Tracker Jack, OLG, and Garrison Joe extremely helpful. I am not a expert gunsmith, and their cautions confirm to me the need for an expert. Maybe I could have cleared the barrel and the chamber and potentially left an unsafe gun behind, waiting for another 2000 rounds before causing the same thing. I want to thank the 3 of you for taking the time to read through the details and providing me a course of action that is safe and prudent. I will let you know what happens.

 

As Assassin said - Lessons Learned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        

With what you said-

You should be on the phone to the outfit that did the work and bought it from come Monday morning.

Let us know, what they say.

OLG

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I always have a model to compare my parts to. I have traced them copied them on a printer or have new parts that are NOT bent to compare the old parts to. 

 

That way when something happens you have a gage to go by. It's a bit over the top but use to bend a lot of parts...…..lol

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13 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Needs to be stripped down completely to be cleaned. Also any parts that may have bent, like the finger lever need to  checked. It would really be best to let a professional gunsmith handle this.

 

Now my question. Why did he club award a reshoot for a gun malfunction that wasn't on the first shot?

I saw exactly this 4 years ago or so.  The shooter had an OOBD, scared all of us pretty good.  The TO didn't know whether the gun was safe, or whether the shooter was uninjured so he called out STOP, which was the right thing to do.  It turned out the gun appeared to be operational and the shooter was able to continue, so she was offered a reshoot and took it.  I thought it was a good call. 

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Posted (edited)

 

Good time to share again

 

PS:  Cypress Sam’s major injury was an ear piercing from a piece of brass

Edited by Wyatt
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Had it happen a couple weeks ago. Kinda startling and not much fun.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Smokey Dave said:

Had it happen a couple weeks ago. Kinda startling and not much fun.

 

 

 

I find two things interesting about that video.  One, the hammer is already cocked at the beginning of the video.  No big deal, maybe he cocked it before the video starts, but after he staged it (or maybe he started with it cocked).  The other is the gun fired without the hammer falling.  It looks like it's still back after the OOBD.  I went pretty much frame by frame from the .07 mark and never saw it fall.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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You are correct Captian Bill, I had already levered the rifle before this video begins. The rifle was staged on the table, empty chamber and hammer down. I just shortened the video to show the OOBD. 

 

I originally thought that I had inadvertently hit the trigger, but I don't think I did. I believe the same thing happened as in the video above that Wyatt posted.

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12 minutes ago, Smokey Dave said:

You are correct Captian Bill, I had already levered the rifle before this video begins. The rifle was staged on the table, empty chamber and hammer down. I just shortened the video to show the OOBD. 

 

I originally thought that I had inadvertently hit the trigger, but I don't think I did. I believe the same thing happened as in the video above that Wyatt posted.

That's what I thought.  Something kept the round from chambering properly then inertia took over as you tried to close the lever.  Glad you're OK.

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18 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That's what I thought.  Something kept the round from chambering properly then inertia took over as you tried to close the lever.  Glad you're OK.

 

Yes Sir. Thank you very much.

 

I hope I didn't hijack the thread. That was not my intention. I only posted the video of my own misfortune, hoping that it may help someone else avoid it. I only sustained a slight cut on my forehead and the rifle has since been repaired.

 

The episode has taught me a valuable lesson. If I ever experience another jam, STOP immediately and find out why. Don't crank that lever trying to clear it and keep going. My safety and well being, and the people around me, is more important than completing a stage.

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Smokey Dave; Thank you for the second video. I showed them both to my son and he felt your actions were the better way to go, and he would try to remember to just stop when things go wrong. 

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4 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Smokey Dave; Thank you for the second video. I showed them both to my son and he felt your actions were the better way to go, and he would try to remember to just stop when things go wrong. 

 

You're quite welcome. If someone can learn from it, then it was worth posting.

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20 hours ago, Russ The Red said:

I had a great weekend shooting Cowboy Iron Man at Border Vigilantes, Briggsdale County Shootists, and Wildcat Ridge. On the final day in the 3rd Stage, I had an Out of Battery Discharge in my 1873 Uberti. The OFB occurred on the ninth round. Fortunately no one was hurt, including the shooter (me) and the TO. I received immediate attention from the TO, the spotters, and the Posse Marshal. We set the gun down and followed safe practices and I was allowed to a reshoot with a different rifle. Here is the current status with my rifle and need for advice:

  1. The rifle is a Uberti (through Taylor's and Company) in caliber 357 mag/38 Special. Serial Number W76710.
  2. I purchased the rifle through Pioneer Gun Works last year (2018) and had it fully tuned.
  3. It was functioning perfectly well until today's OFB.
  4. The safety has not been removed.
  5. I reload using Trail Boss @ 3.5 grains, using 38 Special Brass, Federal Primers, and a 125 grain cast lead bullet (TCFP) from Chey-Cast, with HI-TEK Supercoat coating. I have probably put 2000 rounds through the rifle with the reloads. The OAL is 1.45" minimum to about 1.47" maximum.
  6. There are three pictures below that show the current status of the OFB.
  7. The TO said he believed the bullet from the OFB did go down range.

I am asking for advice about the best way to proceed to get the spent brass out of the lifter and chamber, and handling any bullet that may not have gone down range. My plan is to use a wooden dowel to tap out any bullet and casing. I have given thought to using needle-nose pliers to work on the brass as well.

 

Thank you for any advice.

Russ The Red

 

Bolt Forward Closeup.jpg

Closeup of Bolt in OFB.jpg

20190707_161841_Burst01 (2).jpg

 

Have you made contact with Pioneer Gun Works yet?

OLG

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6 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Smokey Dave; Thank you for the second video. I showed them both to my son and he felt your actions were the better way to go, and he would try to remember to just stop when things go wrong. 

Gentlemen,

These are outstanding videos. This is, to the best of my recollection, is exactly what happened to me. Thank goodness no one was hurt more seriously. This was extremely helpful in understanding what may cause an OBD. I talked with Pioneer Gun Works this morning about my circumstances and Joe from PGW was very helpful and explained what could have caused the problem - and it was exactly what we saw above. Levering in an unusual manner, or trying to force through a loading problem. PGW and I are going to get this fixed in the safest way possible.

 

It is a wonderful feeling knowing this community cares so much about the safety of each other. These are learning experiences which can save lives or prevent serious injury. THANK YOU SMOKEY DAVE, CAPTAIN BILL, SPRINGFIELD SLIM, OLG, ASSASSIN, WYATT, COWBOY JUNKY, DUSTY DEVIL, SILVER CREEK JACK, GARRISON JOE, TRACKER JACK, AND OTHERS WHO HAVE CONTACTED ME THROUGH EMAIL.

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18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Have you made contact with Pioneer Gun Works yet?

OLG

I have OLG and they are being extremely helpful. I appreciate your support and you are always someone I read when serious, or silly conversations come up on the wire.

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12 minutes ago, Russ The Red said:

I have OLG and they are being extremely helpful. I appreciate your support and you are always someone I read when serious, or silly conversations come up on the wire.

 

Please keep us posted on what you have learned from them.

It might be the best to return the rifle to them(Yes-you can ship it yourownself)and let them go over it.

OLG

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Russ, sorry your post got highjacked in a way. Glad everything will work out and no one got hurt. I'm sure that it has been educational for some folks. I was the one filming my Dad, Cypress Sam, when the OBD happened. As soon as Cookie (TO) asked if he was alright, he said no....video ended. He had holes in his hat, flash burn to the face and a good bleeder to the ear. There's a joke about the ear but I won't post it here.

 

Smokey Dave, you may have had a squib on your 5th shot which prevented the 6th round from going in the chamber, pulled the trigger as normal and bam. Shot the squib round out with the OBD round. Just a thought.

 

As my own imposed rule, when I see that a shooter can't chamber the next round in the rifle and is trying to force it, I'll just stop them.....reshoots are much better than an injury or ruined gun. By then, the shooter is usually rattled and needs a little break. YMMV. 

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1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

Russ, sorry your post got highjacked in a way. Glad everything will work out and no one got hurt. I'm sure that it has been educational for some folks. I was the one filming my Dad, Cypress Sam, when the OBD happened. As soon as Cookie (TO) asked if he was alright, he said no....video ended. He had holes in his hat, flash burn to the face and a good bleeder to the ear. There's a joke about the ear but I won't post it here.

 

Smokey Dave, you may have had a squib on your 5th shot which prevented the 6th round from going in the chamber, pulled the trigger as normal and bam. Shot the squib round out with the OBD round. Just a thought.

 

As my own imposed rule, when I see that a shooter can't chamber the next round in the rifle and is trying to force it, I'll just stop them.....reshoots are much better than an injury or ruined gun. By then, the shooter is usually rattled and needs a little break. YMMV. 

Cypress Sun,

 

What you provided was an excellent learning lesson about what an OBD looks like and what safety consideration are important at that time. Stay safe and thank you for the information. 

 

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1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

Russ, sorry your post got highjacked in a way. Glad everything will work out and no one got hurt. I'm sure that it has been educational for some folks. I was the one filming my Dad, Cypress Sam, when the OBD happened. As soon as Cookie (TO) asked if he was alright, he said no....video ended. He had holes in his hat, flash burn to the face and a good bleeder to the ear. There's a joke about the ear but I won't post it here.

 

Smokey Dave, you may have had a squib on your 5th shot which prevented the 6th round from going in the chamber, pulled the trigger as normal and bam. Shot the squib round out with the OBD round. Just a thought.

 

As my own imposed rule, when I see that a shooter can't chamber the next round in the rifle and is trying to force it, I'll just stop them.....reshoots are much better than an injury or ruined gun. By then, the shooter is usually rattled and needs a little break. YMMV. 

This may be a hijack too, but I think what you and your Dad did with your video and follow up when this happened are very helpful to the SASS community. It changed how I react to difficulty chambering a round in an 1873, AND how I react as a TO.

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I shoot with Russ The Red every couple weeks. He does not operate the rifle at ultra high speed or with too much force. He's a very methodical shooter. It's pretty weird that he had an OBD.  

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12 hours ago, Assassin said:

I shoot with Russ The Red every couple weeks. He does not operate the rifle at ultra high speed or with too much force. He's a very methodical shooter. It's pretty weird that he had an OBD.  

 

Stuff breaks........-_-

I do hope RTR inspects ALL of his ammo for any possible issue, like high primer and such.

RTR-I do hope you use a case gauge to check your ammo.........

OLG

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Posted (edited)

Best guess I have (with this new info) is still that a case split circumferentially, and left the mouth end of a case stuck in the chamber.  Next round that chambered stopped short of full chambering, and the firing pin hit primer through inertia of a quick stop.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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9 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Stuff breaks........-_-

I do hope RTR inspects ALL of his ammo for any possible issue, like high primer and such.

RTR-I do hope you use a case gauge to check your ammo.........

OLG

OLG.

 

Here are the last set of pictures once I got the round out of the carrier, chamber, and barrel. You were correct to caution about the possible location of the bullet, it was part way down the barrel. Everything came out of the barrel with minimum effort. I used a wooden dowel and tapped that with my cleaning rod and everything came out without much force. I had earlier removed the brass from the carrier. The rifle is now on its way to Pioneer Gun Works and I believe everything will return to normal. It is interesting to note that just about 1/2 of the brass made it into the chamber.

 

Thank you for your concern and input. Those videos were the best learning lesson for me about what safe practices need to be in the event of a jammed round or poor cycling. I am going to take the extra time to look into the carrier before taking any further action. but understand the hammer does no need to fall to cause the round to go off.

 

Russ the Red

20190708_170048_Burst01.jpg

20190708_170048_Burst02.jpg

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Posted (edited)

With your case out now, almost certainly this was caused by a squib on the previous round.  Bullet stuck at the throat of barrel.  Failure round went in half-way, then stopped and fired on inertia.  How'd the bullet stick in barrel?  The bullet in the failure case pushed the squibbed bullet out the barrel due to compressed air between the two bullets.  With only part of a light powder charge available to push the "failure" bullet (because some pressure went into bulging the case), the failure bullet coasted to a stop part way down barrel.   There's a  chance of a minor amount of bulging that may have occurred in the barrel, but probably not with your light loads.

 

I see you are using cannelured cases in that rifle.  I would QUIT doing that.  You will split one around the cannelure one of these days, and that ring of brass is tough to pull out.

 

TOs must ALWAYS be ready and able to call a squib and stop the shooter, because major messes like this often follow if another round is fired after the squib!

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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On 7/7/2019 at 5:23 PM, Assassin said:

I was the Match Director and I was at the loading table. As soon as I heard the OBD I set my pistols on the loading table, and moved forward to access the event and I shut everyone down. Yes, the shooter could have moved to the next shooting position and shot the rest of the stage. However, the shooter was a little confused as were the rest of the posse members including myself. Rather than risk more confusion on the stage I made the determination to allow the reshoot because I shut him down to insure the safety of everyone on the posse. It was a learning experience.

So in general, should a T. O., upon seeing someone jacking the '73 hammer to try to drive  a round into the chamber just stop the shooter for general posse safety, then allow a reshoot?  It seems like that benefits everyone on the stage.  What say? 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

So in general, should a T. O., upon seeing someone jacking the '73 hammer to try to drive  a round into the chamber just stop the shooter for general posse safety, then allow a reshoot?  It seems like that benefits everyone on the stage.  What say? 

Absolutely not, it's up to the shooter to manipulate the stage safely. Once an event happens; squib, OBD, etc. It becomes a safety issue that needs to be addressed immediately. Some shooters can just set down the gun and move on. Others get confused or sometimes they are injured. I had an OBD last year, I just sat the gun down and moved on to my next gun. Some would say I'm an experienced shooter having 23 years in the game. Depending on the person, you never know how they will respond to things that happen. I don't get excited over stuff, it doesn't help. It is a game, if folks start getting hurt due to overlooking potential safety concerns we all need to stay home and contemplate what it means to be an upstanding human. 

Edited by Assassin
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