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Trail Boss Loads for 105 grain 38 Caliber


bgavin

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I picked up some 38 caliber, 105 grain LTCFP from Desperado Bullets.
These are BHN=8~9 soft cast specifically for bunny-fart loads, because Wrongway says this sounds cuter than mouse-fart loads.

I've come up with 3.0 to 4.5 grains of Trail Boss in 38SP cases.
This is 753 fps / 11,600 psi  and  952 fps / 13,400 psi respectively.

Recoil in a NM Vaquero is 0.98 / 1.76 pounds.
This is very kind to noob shooters and anybody with broken hands.
On-paper trajectory looks very good for CAS targets distances.

Q: I'm just curious if anybody has already experimented with this load.

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That is my understanding as well.
I've read that Trail Boss is "sooty" at the lower pressure points.

3.5 grains calculates to approximately 796 fps and 11, 992 psi.
This is a very close match for the soft cast 105 gr bullet.

I have a thousand count of these, so my wife should have an ample supply of "trainers" as she comes up to speed.

 

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I fully agree...
But I have yet to meet the sprinter who didn't learn to walk first.  ;)

My neighbor has a chrono, so we will take a sample out for seat of the pants testing.

OLG, as always, much obliged.

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Just now, bgavin said:

I fully agree...
But I have yet to meet the sprinter who didn't learn to walk first.  ;)

My neighbor has a chrono, so we will take a sample out for seat of the pants testing.

 

Make sure that crono has fresh batteries. ;)

OLG

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2 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

I got better consistency with 3.5 grains with my powder measure.  And the little hotter loads seemed to give a better burn.

We have found this to be true also, particularly in our cold winter's.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I contacted Ringer Bullets, and he is making a run of 38 caliber 105gr LTCFP at BHN=9 and Hi-Tek coating for me.
This is the best of all worlds for me... Trail Boss, light recoil, Hi-Tek coated and appropriate BHN.

I didn't ask him, but he will probably do the same for 45 shooters with Trail Boss who want soft cast Hi-Tek bullets.

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On 7/7/2019 at 4:17 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Go with 3.5 so you don't have issues in the cold.

TB don't like cold weather with low end loads.

Use a firm roll crimp......

OLG

 

I shoot 125 gr Poly-coated hard cast lead, with 3.5 Trail Boss and agree 100% with OLG, the roll crimp is extremely important. It can cause more problems than I first realized. In the rifles we use, the chambering of a round can get messed up if there isn't a roll crimp. Plus in the revolver the roll crimp helps prevent any forward movement of the bullet in the casing because of recoil while still in the cylinder. Our low powder loads may not create any bullet movement, but it's a good habit to form for the revolver. 

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I have been loading 3.5 grains of trailboss with a 110 grain truncated flat point in 38 spcl cases with a magnum primer. 

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I load 3.5 grains of Trail Boss topped with a tightly crimped at groove Cimarron Hi Tech Coated 105 for my wife and she loves them. Good solid burn, they all go bang, minimal recoil in both pistol and rifle. 

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On 7/7/2019 at 5:18 PM, bgavin said:

I fully agree...
But I have yet to meet the sprinter who didn't learn to walk first.  ;)

My neighbor has a chrono, so we will take a sample out for seat of the pants testing.

OLG, as always, much obliged.

 

As alluded to, light loads of TB tend to be "erratic". Seat of the pants testing followed by some chrono work is the way I do it. Sometimes' something simple as a primer change can make a big difference. A great way to fine tune a load. 

 

To my way of thinking, the components pretty much cost the same, why not use the best combination you can. Same amount of labor, same cost, why not test.

 

When I've chrono'd Trail Boss loads I've found that the max loads are more consistent than the starting load. Because the powder does not fill the case, there is a void. When the primer explodes, the turbulence sends the rather large flakes flying with bit of distance between each flake. The primer ignites most of the flakes, the rest are ignited by adjustment flakes. Not all primers are created equal, some do a better job of igniting the flying flakes. A chrono will tell you which primers are doing a better job. 

 

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm is a good read on cowboy loads for rifles.

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  • 1 month later...

I have never used 105gr bullets in a match - for that matter, I havent reloaded with Trail Boss either but it sounds like using them with Trail Boss would produce some pretty soft shooting loads.

 

I have only been in the game for a year so I have only shot about a dozen matches so far - I try to see what others are doing and I am always learning.  My ammo habits have changed quickly:  I did my first couple of matches with store bought 158 LSWC in my pistols and revolvers - then I went to bulk purchasing 125 grain cowboy loads from on-line suppliers - and then I started reloading my own.  I have shot two matches with my own reloads using 125's and just loaded up a small batch of 105's (sample pack - so not even enough for a whole match) so I am wondering - of those that are shooting 105's now - do you think it makes a noticeable difference?   I test fired a few form the first batch and they seemed to do well - feeding was smooth and grouping seemed pretty good - I just didn't feel like there was a big difference in felt recoil dropping down to the 105's.

I have been using Clay's for all of my reloads so far because it was available locally at a good price - I get good results and when this bottle is empty, I am going to try some Trail Boss to see if it is worth the change...

 

I'll get a better feel when I shoot them in my next match - I am wondering if there are some old-timer secrets to getting better CAS performance out of the 105's -

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I went the 38SP 105 grain route entirely to ease my wife into her Vaqueros.
She is recoil-averse after bad experiences as a kid with her Dad's 10-gauge and 30-06...

Light loads, light charges and fast burning powder go nicely together in a revolver.
In order of charge density, Trail Boss, IMR Red, IMR Target and Clays will give you less than 2 ft-lbs of recoil in a Vaquero.

These light loads produce less than 15,000 PSI, so you can expect them to be dirtier than a high pressure load.
This light charge necessitates soft cast lead in the BHN=9 to 10 range.
All load are Power Factor 79 and higher, and under 1,000 fps.

I had Ringer Bullets make me a run of 105gr LTCFP with Hi-Tek coating for this load.
This load probably won't have enough Moxie for rifle knock-down targets.

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1 hour ago, bgavin said:

This load probably won't have enough Moxie for rifle knock-down targets.

 

I am actually planning to hold back on a handful of 125's just in case.  I'll give the 105's a fair chance because even factory loads will leave one standing every now and again if it is not a good hit.

If I see a pattern developing when even after a GOOD hit, all I get is disappointment from an anemic 105 round - I'll go back to just shooting all 125's.   My initial impressions with the 105 load I am using is that there isn't enough recoil reduction to justify the risk of a failure on a reactive target or the need to produce multiple match loads to successfully engage all of the targets.

 

Seems promising- we will see.

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Many of the shooters in my group standardized on 158gr.
Clays is a common powder.

Our particular location does not use long distance like the events in Montana, etc.
After I get through this load of bullets, I want to try 158 grains for the rifle.

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Lighter bullets does not always equate to lighter recoil.

You need a heavier charge for proper bullet consistency. There is more space in the cartridge (more blow-by). There is less bearing surface between the bullet and bbl. There is less energy for reactive targets. There is less room for a good crimp with correct OAL needed in some guns.

 

Modifying a load for the sake of recoil rather than accurate, consistent performance seems to be a poor choice to me. Poor bullet performance causes poor gun performance. Backed out primers, Unburnt powder residue issues from blow by. Improper OAL. After all, these are only .38 cal. in large heavy guns (for the most part), which is another recoil consideration.

 

 

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If they go ding, it's a hit.  Just make sure they meet the minimum power factor!!!  3.5 puts you safely in there.  Just remember, if you think it is a ding it is a hit. 

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An easy rule of thumb to ballpark relative recoil is by using the calculated Power Factor.
SASS rules require a PF>=60.
This is a basic calculation that does not factor in the powder charge or the gun weight.
PF = (Grains * FPS) / 1000

Using standard published loads in a 2.8 lb Vaquero,  you can ballpark a PF up to 119 before you exceed 2.0 ft-lbs of recoil.
Shooters wanting to calculate actual recoil using recoil velocity and recoil momentum are encouraged to set it up in a spread sheet to do the heavy lifting.
This method takes into account all the factors of bullet weight, charge weight, muzzle velocity and gun weight.
JBM Ballistics has a comprehensive tutorial on the calculations.

Trail Boss is specifically designed for maximum filling of the cartridge, i.e. the "load density".
The intent is choosing a published load that produces minimal recoil, SASS legal velocity and PF, optimal load density and a PSI match for the hardness of the lead bullet.

There is a big difference between modifying an existing load vs choosing a published load that meets recoil specs.

Blow-by is external to the cartridge.  It is caused by low pressure which fails to fully seal the cartridge or bullet in the chamber or barrel.



 

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I certainly do agree that consistent bullet performance is more important that chasing lighter felt recoil simply for the sake of lower felt recoil.  It is one of the reasons I only bought a sample-pack of the 105's - just to see if the juice is worth the squeeze.  Bullets going bang when I pull the trigger and impacting where the gun was aiming when I dented the primer is far more important to me than felt recoil or trigger weight.  Most of my shooting over my life has been with service grade ammo or reloads that are intentionally hot enough to "make major" so loading for less recoil is a really new concept for me.  My current curiosity is mostly a by-product of listening to others talk about what cowboy shooting should "look like."  So I am just testing the water right now - first with the 105's and when I run out of Clays, I'll try it again with Trail Boss.     

 

I've heard folks bash Trail Boss because its sooo dirty and you only get 9 oz in a one pound jar but I've also heard folk stalk like Trail Boss is the best thing since Nelson King's  loading gate.  I try to take it all with a grain of salt because in the short time that I have been in the sport, I have heard countless folks talking about going outside of published load data to get lighter loadings, using springs so light that the gun becomes dependent on specific reloading components, and the desire to remove or deactivate factory installed safeties in the name of a few tenths of a second faster time on a stage.  I'm sure the truth about Trail Boss and 105's for light recoil CAS loads is somewhere between those two extremes. 

 

If Trail Boss powder provides less recoil and the same or better accuracy at the cost of a little more residue - at the end of the day - I am ok with that as as long as shooting in one CAS match doesn't turn a clean gun into something that looks like a poorly maintained truck-gun.  On the other hand, if recoil is so light that I need to load multiple bullet weights to knock down targets - well, it sort of sinks the whole concept of "one round for multiple guns" and I'll go back to using Clays and 125's.

 

The load that I have worked out for these 105's shows promise - so far the accuracy of the test batch is consistent and they grouped as well as the other loads that I have been shooting.  The proof in the pudding will be seeing how they perform when they are on the clock.

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Q: What are the specifics of your current load with 105?  How many grains of Clays, which primer, FPS, BHN of bullet, etc.

For me, the entire appeal of Trail Boss is it high load density.
TB fills the cartridge more than any other powder and lessens the chance of a double charge.
These are all low pressure loads, and I fully expect them to be dirty.

Our situation is different from yours, as I am loading for low recoil and max case filling, and for revolvers only.
This revolver load is too anemic for the rifle.
A number of guys in our group use a one-for-all Clays + 158gr for revolvers and rifles.
 

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Take a look also a 160 grain bullets cast to provide overall cartridge lengths using a 38 Special case that is closer to a 357 OAL.  Some rifles feed better with these rounds.  I prefer heavier loads in my rifles as some spotters will call a miss unless they see a big bullet splat and see the rifle target wobble.  That's not what the rules call for but its how some spotters spot.

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1 hour ago, bgavin said:

Interesting thought.
This gives you the seated depth of the 38, but the longer bullet brings OAL closer to that of the 357.
Sounds great on paper.

I shot thousands of these through one of my Marlins.  It loved them.  I'll send a link for a current supplier.  (My former supplier left the business.)

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I think Trail Boss is a bit slow in terms of burn rate for very light loads. I prefer faster powders such as Clays, 700x or Red Dot.  Was wondering if anybody had tried the Alliant E3 powder? Looks like a good candidate for our game.  

burn-rate-color.pdf

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105g coated bullets with 2.7g Trail Boss gives me power factor of 640 in varqueo and 125g with 2.7g Trail Boss gives me 768 in rifle. Not clean but not that dirty. 

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A 10 shot group of 38 spl, with 2.7 grains of Clays, Federal #100 primer, 1.43 oal, Dillon roll crimp, and a Missouri Bullet Cowboy #16, (105 grain, TCFP, with Hi-Tek), fired from a 4.75” barrel Vaquero, yields an average velocity of 627, and an average power factor of 65.  

 

While these meet the SASS minimum power factor of 60, and they work just fine on stationary targets, don’t count on them to knock off the points of a Texas Star motion target, or knock down a large plate rack.  

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18 hours ago, Chuck Steak said:

 

I am actually planning to hold back on a handful of 125's just in case.  I'll give the 105's a fair chance because even factory loads will leave one standing every now and again if it is not a good hit.

If I see a pattern developing when even after a GOOD hit, all I get is disappointment from an anemic 105 round - I'll go back to just shooting all 125's.   My initial impressions with the 105 load I am using is that there isn't enough recoil reduction to justify the risk a failure on a reactive target or the need to produce multiple match loads to engage all of the targets.

 

Seems promising- we will see.

We have been shooting 105 grain tfp behind 4.1 grains of trail boss for a couple years.  On a solid hit we have never had one fail to take it down. 

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10 hours ago, Two Shoots said:

A 10 shot group of 38 spl, with 2.7 grains of Clays, Federal #100 primer, 1.43 oal, Dillon roll crimp, and a Missouri Bullet Cowboy #16, (105 grain, TCFP, with Hi-Tek), fired from a 4.75” barrel Vaquero, yields an average velocity of 627, and an average power factor of 65. 


This is as close to "mouse fart" as one can get... ;)

I calculate a recoil of only 0.67 ft-lbs in a Vaquero that measures in at 2.93 lbs loaded.

Q: how is this load for being "dirty?"

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