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44-40 taper crimp or factory crimp?


Stopsign32v

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3 hours ago, Stopsign32v said:

So does this look right for a Redding profile crimp? I called Redding and CS told me to run an EMPTY case up and screw down the die until it contacts then adjust it to my like. I asked for clarification of EMPTY case and they said yes. I did that and ruined a case. Kinda mad about that.

 

Then I tried it with a finished case and came up with this. Does this look right?

 

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I think you got it.:D.

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18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OH-BTW--Don't cry over a crunched case.

You'll loose a few at every shoot........Just the way it is. -_-

OLG

With a good crimp, nothing should be "loose"

 

Yes I lose a lot more 44-40 to getting stepped on than I do all other cases combined. Just another part of the expense that is shooting sass with black powder.

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I've used the Lee FCD for all my 44-40, smokeless and BP, .427 and .429, pistol and rifle.  This is using normal bullets with a crimp groove.  Never a problem of any sort.  I've heard some folks say the Lee FCD "damages" the brass.  I think Savvy Jack alluded to that.  I guess they are talking about the little ring it puts around the brass at the case mouth.  I've reloaded my brass a lot of times without problem from that "damage" but then I'm not loading it hot.

 

I HAVE had some problems with .429 bullets occasionally not seating perfectly straight (Lee dies - yes I'm using the .44 mag expander die) which can cause a bulge on one side and chambering problems.  So I went to .427 (easy to buy locally) and no problem.  I may look for a new seater so I can go back to .429.  But crimp has never been an issue.

 

YMMV

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10 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

Sorry, I did not mean to come off like a jerk. I was referring to the 1/16" dimension. Maybe I misunderstood you. I should have added a smiley face to my statement. Hope you will not hold it against me.

 

Regarding bullets telescoping in when slammed by the follower in a rifle magazine, yes the crimps I make with the Lee Factory Crimp Die are not very strong. Sometimes I make up some dummy 44-40 rounds without primers or powder to check for function. I can generally only cycle them through a rifle once or twice before the bullets start to telescope into the case. Not a problem with my BP rounds, but if I ever decide to make up some Smokeless rounds again, maybe I will look into the Redding die.

 

Pretty much all my 44-40s are for rifles. The only 44-40 revolver I have that gets shot is an antique Merwin Hulbert. So far, so good, I have not noticed bullets creeping out from recoil.

 

 

Sorry Driftwood, I was having a bad day when I read your mis quote reply, I could have been clearer in that the 1/16” was a figurative number and that it was my way of saying a slight gap not a quote from you. 

I enjoy your posts and get good info from them. Keep em coming.

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8 hours ago, Stopsign32v said:

So does this look right for a Redding profile crimp? I called Redding and CS told me to run an EMPTY case up and screw down the die until it contacts then adjust it to my like. I asked for clarification of EMPTY case and they said yes. I did that and ruined a case. Kinda mad about that.

 

Then I tried it with a finished case and came up with this. Does this look right?

 

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Something looks odd. I took the photo and zoomed in. I might just need glasses but I think see two things of interest. 1. The lead looks to be pushed over the case mouth (arrow). It looks like the die resized the forward driving band, 2. The circle shows a "bubble" that I don't recall my Redding die leaving behind. This will cause a weak area and could result in split cases.....but lightly loaded cas loads should not affect case longevity.

 

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When I crimped it hard those raised areas showed up. It is the area where the crimp is split up. It makes if I recall 4 of those marks. I tried the Lee factory crimp die and it does the same. What is also interesting to me is when you buy the Lee 4 die set the factory crimp die comes with a center screw in part which seems to eliminate these marks.

 

Either way, I backed off the Redding crimp and these marks went away.

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5 minutes ago, Stopsign32v said:

When I crimped it hard those raised areas showed up. It is the area where the crimp is split up. It makes if I recall 4 of those marks. I tried the Lee factory crimp die and it does the same. What is also interesting to me is when you buy the Lee 4 die set the factory crimp die comes with a center screw in part which seems to eliminate these marks.

 

Either way, I backed off the Redding crimp and these marks went away.

Ah, okay good. Too tight of a crimp will cause chamber pressure to increase BUT again, light loads shouldnt be a problem either way.

Take a look at the Buffalo Bore factory load photo. That should be a Magma bullet and a factory crimp......but I could be wrong ;-)  there is a reason I never gamble with money!!!

Buffalo Bore Crimp



 

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3 minutes ago, Savvy Jack said:

Ah, okay good. Too tight of a crimp will cause chamber pressure to increase BUT again, light loads shouldnt be a problem either way.

Take a look at the Buffalo Bore factory load photo. That should be a Magma bullet and a factory crimp......but I could be wrong ;-)  there is a reason I never gamble with money!!!

Buffalo Bore Crimp 87.22 kB · 0 downloads



 

 

That looks like too much crimp to me. I don't like to overdo it and cause unneeded stress on the brass. Here is a pulled load that is a representation of what the others are like once I 'got the hang' of the Redding die.

 

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What is happening is that you are using a 44-40 Redding Profile die on a 44 Magnum/Special bullet diameter. The 44-40 Redding profile crimp is designed for a .427 diameter and a shallow ogive from the tip of the bullet to the crimp...namely the Winchester 44-40 JSP bullet. The Magma bullet profile is not a 44-40 profile even though it is called a 44-40 bullet. It is not a problem, just causes confusion.  When you crimp the Magma bullet (is that a Magma bullet?), you in turn "cold form" the forward driving band that does not exsist on a true 44-40 bullet. That's why it is (appears to be) pushing lead "shavings" down onto the outside of the crimp in the photos.

I am stuck in a hotel all week, I can try to better explain with photos when I get home if needed.

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This is a photo of a variety of crimps used on a 43-215C bullet. This bullet was designed after the Lyman 427098, a true 44-40 bullet with a profile that will  not touch the lands when chambered in older tight chamber rifles such as Marlin's 1889...even if the diameter is sized/cast to .428
I use the Lyman 427098 bullet with powders that fill the case so the bullet sits firmly on top of the powder thus aiding in the prevention of "telescoping" of the bullet down into the case from the pressure of the mag tube spring when loaded into a rifle magtube. The 43-215C is a 427098 design but a crimp grove is added so it can be used with less powder. The LFCD and the Redding can be used if crimped on the driving band rather than above it.

 

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This is a photo of crimps used on the Winchester 200grJSP, with Redding's Profile die being an option... which it was designed for. This bullet has the small .4255 diameter. The Redding Profile die makes a good crimp BUT the case needs to be resized and expanded with the smaller plug offered in Lee's dies, not necessarily RCBS' larger plug Cowboy die.
 

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The below photo is of the widely used "Magma" bullet cast by commercial casters using the 200-RNF-BB from Magma Engineering

Commercial casters stamp their own name on it like Oregon Trails "Laser Cast" 200gr 44-40 .427. Although the bullet can be purchased in .427, .428 up to .431, the diameter is not the problem with the Redding Profile crimp. The problem is with the exposed forward driving band diameter extending too far forward for the for the Redding Profile crimp die to be used without "cold forming" that driving band. If you will look again at the 43-215C (Lyman 427098 type design) and Winchester's JSP, there is no exposed forward driving band. The purpose, again, of not having the exposed driving band is to have the small diameter Ogive so it will not hit the lands on tight chamber rifles.

Also can be seen in the photos is the indentations on the exposed driving band caused by the bullet pushing into the rifling lands. The difference in the "dents" is mainly due to the different hardness' of each bullet rather than one being of a smaller diameter.

The die used for the below crimps is the RCBS "Cowboy" die using only the bullet seating AND roll crimp all in ONE STEP!

Also can be seen is the "small gap" left between the case mouth and the top portion, underside of the crimp groove that helps prevent crushing of the case. (die is adjusted for the longest case, the shorter the case, the larger the gap).

 

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On 7/3/2019 at 1:32 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

One should seat and crimp in two separate operations, for the best results.

OLG

I beg to differ... on should seat and crimp with the greatest attention to proper crimp.  Whether one does it with one or two dies.  Two dies do make it "easier"... not necessarily "better".  Certainly not "best".:P

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5 hours ago, Griff said:

I beg to differ... on should seat and crimp with the greatest attention to proper crimp.  Whether one does it with one or two dies.  Two dies do make it "easier"... not necessarily "better".  Certainly not "best".:P

 

 +++++1! 

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9 hours ago, Griff said:

I beg to differ... on should seat and crimp with the greatest attention to proper crimp.  Whether one does it with one or two dies.  Two dies do make it "easier"... not necessarily "better".  Certainly not "best".:P

The two step process does give a more consistent and uniform result.

Even more so, with mixed brass.

Look how commercial loaders do it.;)

OLG

 

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Stopsign, here are a few I loaded up this afternoon trying to show examples of a roll crimp vs the profile crimp. To be clear, both applications are perfectly fine and is simply the choice of the handloader. As you can see in the photo, the Redding profile crimp  "slims up the neck" and flattens out any roll crimp bulge as can be seen in the case next to it.  This helps chamber in that ever so slight tighter revolver chamber. Also can be seen is the prominent flat exposed driving band that enables the lands to touch the bullet in older tight chamber rifles. The band is more prominent because the Redding die "cold formed" it, or "sized it down" in the crimp process.

The first two on the left and the last one on the right are true 44-40 profile bullets...no external driving band. Note the rifling mark locations that would be just barely not touching on the Winchester JSP and other 44-40 true profile bullets.

The three Bear Creek bullets are swaged bullets with a "magma" profile similarity.


You already said you backed off on the crimp...and that's awesome!! Sorry for bombarding your topic but I hope this helps.

 

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On 7/5/2019 at 9:33 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The two step process does give a more consistent and uniform result.

Even more so, with mixed brass.

Look how commercial loaders do it.;)

OLG

I'll agree.. the 2-step process gives a more consistent & uniform result if you use mixed brass and don't trim to length... Otherwise, properly prepared uniform brass is no more difficult to seat & crimp in one step than any other method.  The one-step method requires a more meticulous die adjustment & case preparation cycle than the 2-step method.  As far as commercial loaders...  Well, let's just say that, I started reloading to make BETTER ammo than that available commercially.  And still strive to do so, even in my CAS ammo.  

 

I will agree that for our distances and velocities ammo loaded to looser tolerances is just fine, and makes for faster reloading in bulk, (less preparation)...  a major goal for the commercial reloader...  But, I am one those shooters that shoots to reload... ;)

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My gun needs .430 bullets, so I do well with the RCBS Cowboy dies (need to lube cases).  The bullets are shared with 44 Special. The issues I had with chambering or gauging were solved by trimming cases. I would say that picking a die will require an awareness of bullet diameter. The .427-.428 bullets probably would not fare well with the Cowboy dies. It depends what you mean by 44-40, by the book or the actual gun in hand. Mine is a Uberti Outlaw with throats that allow a .430 bullet to pass with mild coaxing.

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On 7/3/2019 at 1:32 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

One should seat and crimp in two separate operations, for the best results.

OLG

 

My experience would mirror that.

 

Occasionally, sometimes, the operation can be combined with satisfactory results, but more often separating the steps, does a better job. IIRC, I used a Redding die to seat and crimp, in one operation, for this ammo. The "fragile", (actually thin and soft brass in the neck), crimps rather easily. I don't own a 44-40 at the present time, but I didn't mind shooting or loading the caliber. I found that the LEE 200 gr bullet sized 429 to be a good fit for all my 44-40 rifles. I never owned a 44-40 hipgun, unfortunately, but a nice hipgun in 44-40 is on the bucket list. I've kept all my ammo, brass, dies and such, for the day I find a nice "44". My Lyman 427666 mold did cast a nice bullet, but being undersize for my rifles, it did not shoot as good.

 

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Now, to stay on topic, I like and use the LEE FCD in a fair number of calibers, but never got around to buying one for the 44-40. I don't usually fix stuff that ain't broke. 

 

BB 

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10 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Doing combined is counter productive as you are still seat'n the bullet, as the crimp squeezes the bullet as it's still moving to the COAL setting.

I'll stick with the 2 stage process.

OLG

I shoot my 265 yard shots with a one step crimp. No matter if the claim is more uniform or not, the outcome is what counts! My results prove the two step is not needed. However, to throw a wrench into the gears, sometimes I seat/roll crimp THEN run a step through the Redding Profile to knock the roll crimp bulge off in order to chamber in some weapons.

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49 minutes ago, Stopsign32v said:

Yes I need to definitely start trimming my brass. I noticed this when seating the bullets, the consistency isn't always there.

Trimming brass is certainly not a bad thing. For CAS non of this is necessary for those close proximity targets. In trying to get the tightest groups nI could at 100 yards, I have tried every combination I could think of. Although I didn't find it necessary to trim cases for my 11,000psi and under loads (cowboy farts being 8,000psi), any loads in the 18,000psi range will certain stretch the cases every so many shots. I have a box of 50 that I keep for my long distance shots. I keep them trimmed to 1.300". About every 4th or 5th load, some can reach 1.304".

Nevertheless, to prevent case crushing with roll crimping, trimming can be done or just set the die to crimp for the longest case being loaded. 

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Let's think about the 2 step seat/crimp. If the bullet has a roll crimp groove, there should be no problem at all crimping in one step. As the bullet is seated, it simultaneously begins the roll and pushed the case into the roll crimp "voided" area of the bullet. If there is a roll crimp groove, there should be nothing to prevent a clean roll into the groove. The roll crimp is more of a "floater" with no, or very little retention anywhere. The retention to prevent bullet, forward or aft movement, should come from the bullet/case neck retention much like a 45 ACP(but uses an added taper crimp) cartridge. The roll crimp prevents the bullet from moving forward, in a revolver, from heavy recoil. The mag tube plug/spring retention prevents the bullet from moving forward in a rifle. The roll crimp, inside a roll crimp grove on the bullet, prevents telescoping of the bullet inside a rifle mag tube from the mag tube spring retention. If there is a shallow roll crimp groove, or even just a detent...a a hint of a groove, then you could run into a problem. If using soft lead, using the one/step rolls the crimp into the soft lead creating it's own crimp groove. If there is only a canular groove or no groove at all, then a two step may be in order to prevent case crumpling with harder lead bullets.

Using jacketed bullets, a "factory crimp" as is used with Winchester's factory loads....works better than a roll crimp. The Redding Profile die is far superior and easier on the case mouth than the LFCD. Redding Profile die should be used on .427/428 bullets.  For larger bullets, one may be forced to use the LFCD or the Redding Profile die will cold form the larger diameter of the exposed driving band. The reason is that the exposed driving band does not match the "profile" of the Redding "Profile" die.

The LFCD can be used in all methods/bullet designs to eliminate confusion but can weaken the case mouth and cause splits with higher pressure loads other than the low pressure CAS loads. The LFCD "cuts" into the brass and also leaves several design "humps" around the case that can weaken the case.

In the below photos, one can see what the case outline looks like using each step. 
1. Case neck expansion using an RCBS "M" die. Prevents neck bulges that prevents chambering in revolvers. Also prevents "shaving of lead and buckling" due to close tolerances on other expander designs.
2. Bullet seating step just shy of the bottom of the forward driving band
3. Roll Crimp, but notice the slight bulge of what I call the "roll hump" just below the crimp curve. This also hinders chambering in some revolver chambers and is what I thought to be the original poster's problem.
4. Running the cartridge through the Redding Profile Crimp...go easy.... (after the roll crimp) will knock the hump back down. Or one can just use the Redding Profile crimp altogether, I prefer the roll crimp method for my high pressure hard cast lead loads.

Here I am using a Magma type desigh bullet but these are swaged bullets with no lube grooves but do have a crimp groove. They are polymer coated.polymer

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When you go to the 2 step process(seat then crimp)you are no longer push'n down on the bullet's nose as you apply the crimp.

This keeps from deforming the bullet's nose, and removes this variable in using mixed brand brass.

And yes-I'm a big fan of the LEE FCD. Never an issue with the loaded rnd fitting my Dillon case gauges. ;)

OLG

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

When you go to the 2 step process(seat then crimp)you are no longer push'n down on the bullet's nose as you apply the crimp.

This keeps from deforming the bullet's nose, and removes this variable in using mixed brand brass.

And yes-I'm a big fan of the LEE FCD. Never an issue with the loaded rnd fitting my Dillon case gauges. ;)

OLG

 

 

 

Only when using soft lead, besides.....are you shooting for 4" groups at 25 yards? The only time I get bullet nose deformation is when loading a full case of black powder and compressing the powder with the soft lead (wheel weights) bullet.

Why build a dragster car if all you are going to do is drive it on the road at 20mph?

Here is the same load as in my above photos but using the LFCD with very little pressure, just enough to give a crimp.

Also re-added the case with the slight roll crimp bulge

Sorry, not trying to tell folks how to load if I am giving that impression. Would be boring if we all loaded the same way. Just trying to give a little insight to behind the purpose of each method and some problems with each method. This is why the 44-40 cartridge is the most multifaceted cartridge on the market!!!
 

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Using the bullet to compress BP is dumb if it's more than 1/8" compression.

I will 2-stage the seat and crimp because every caliber I shoot. I listen to the target.

The target tells me to do this. Especially when the case head-spaces on the case mouth(.45acp)

This is how I've been do'n it, since my NRA Bullseye days some 50+ yrs ago. -_-

It also makes die adjustment far easier. ;)

It's part of the KISS deal.........

OLG

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28 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The target tells me to do this. 

This is how I've been do'n it, since my NRA Bullseye days some 50+ yrs ago. -_-

It also makes die adjustment far easier. ;)

It's part of the KISS deal.........

OLG

Exactly, my 265 yard 44-40, 4" groups tell me that the 2 step is not necessary in my application and is exactly the point I am trying to make. Loading is different for everyone and everyone's application. We are only here to give example as to what might work for someone else when they ask.....and what I am saying is the the two step is not always a must but should always be tried to see if it works best for the loader.

Using a soft lead bullet to compress powder is never a smart thing and is why I use a compression die to compress black powder. When that is the case, there is no need to resize the case because neck retention is no longer needed (which the Lyman 310 hand tool provides) in certain applications. Then the roll or profile crimp is all that's needed to prevent the bullet from walking out of the case during recoil events and whatever application aids in accuracy.

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Here is a good example of the two step process using a LFCD and a Redding Profile crimp die. (ignore the lower crimp groove on the middle bullet)
The bullet is a Hornady 240gr SWC HP I use for hunting. This bullet, far right, has no crimp groove. Rather than roll crimp, I like to use the two step, seat then crimp, with one of the two aforementioned crimp dies. Can you guess which die was used to form each crimp?

Yeah I know, I spend way too much time in the loading room!!!

 

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Most of my split cases resulted just like this one. Cause...hard crimp with LFCD. The LFCD leaves these "humps" in the crimp due to the cut outs in the die body. The "hump" itself is not the problem. The problem is the sharp edge that it leaves on each side of the crimp. Certainly depends on how hard the crimp is applied.

This case was reloaded but this time using the Redding Profile crimp die. The Redding die will not even flatten out the sharpe edges which shows the evident, basically permanent damage. This is why I switched to the Redding Profile die where applicable. These are WW cases (old enough) and reloaded many times using only 6.4gr of trailboss. 6.4gr of Trail Boss gave me consistent 7,000psi pressures unlike my Starline case test loads of 9.3gr (caseload no compression) that produce over 15,000psi.   WARNING: SAAMI MAX 11,000psi

 

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