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Long Hunter SASS #20389L

My take on EOT and SASS

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Posted (edited)

Long Hunter,

Although we've never met, your reputation is impeccable.   Here in the South, you are a much

admired man, not only for your accomplishments in SASS but also thru your business ethics

and reputation.

 

But I gotta admit I'm missing something about the law suit topic.

Some of SASS strongest sponsors and best gunsmiths have grown their business on firearms mods.

Without their efforts, SASS and its membership might not be where it is today.

 

And I really don't understand how making a Ruger function like a Colt becomes a safety issue.

Many shooters love their older Colt's..... with half cock and no transfer bar.

Many shooters lover their Rugers..... with half cock and no transfer bar.

I don't understand how that particular design (or modification) is a liability with SASS.

 

As for Short Strokes, no comment.   I shoot a Marlin in .32, which already has a shorter stroke from the

factory than their other caliber 1894 rifles.

 

And as for target placements, history repeats itself.    When the targets started getting closer, folks

were happy because they were shooting faster and cleaner.

Folks get a little tired of the 'to close' stuff and want to move em back a little again.   In a couple

more years, folks will want them moved closer again.   Its just our nature of change.

 

It might not be a good analogy, but in reference to the firearms mods allowed, SASS has already

allowed the Peach Cobbler to be served and few care to eat the cold banana pudding. 

 

Hope you are doing well.   Your participation and leadership in SASS/CAS is missed.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

 SASS, some gun mods have reached the point of dangerous for the sake of a few milliseconds in time saved. In my opinion, these have come about due to extremely close targets that requires the shooter only to have the ability to operate the firearm as fast as possible. Sight picture and trigger control were thrown out the window. If SASS intends to continue this trend of moving targets back out and make it a shooting match instead of an operating match, you’ll see me back at the major cowboy matches. And it’s not just me. I’ve visited with many old friends that left SASS for this very reason.

Thank you for being honest LH. 

I truly wish you had participated in another EOT stage related thread here a couple days ago.   Reality seemed to get exchanged for popular rhetoric in a few of the posts there.  Thank you for properly (I believe) pinning the tail back on the donkey.  

 

I will offer another point of view on categories, however.  I'm fast approaching 70.  I'm a relative newbie, but I closely associate with some very good CAS shooters who have been regulars in the winners circle over many years.  They are still avidly competitive, but age creeps up on all of us.  We simply cannot physically move as fast as we once could, but we still like to play the game competitively.  

If there is only a single category or two or three, my older friends and I have no physical way to compete against young fellows like Matt Black or Bobcat Tyler, who still are in the part of their life where they have the capability, coordination and eyesight to shoot at light speed.  Absent some kind of contest geared for those of us who are half-blind with arthritis, hip replacements, and multiple other age related failings, there would be little point in spending the high cost of travel to go and shoot at EOT, Winter Range, or elsewhere.  We might as well just attend to help out and visit friends and leave our guns at home. 

 

To some degree, the "close, big and fast" issue also relates to this.  We could still be very competitive, if the targets were 12" and 35 yards out, and the arrays were fairly complex.  Nobody would be moving as fast, so the ranking differences would be affected by skills other than just speed.

But what I read here on the Wire is that nobody would want to shoot more challenging target arrays, even at a World Championship match.  So a reasonable array of categories seems the best way to make happy as many people as possible.  - - - - But I will agree that there are now a LOT of categories.  Possibly some recombining would be realistic.  

Thank you again for an excellent post. 

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Thank you for being honest LH. 

I truly wish you had participated in another EOT stage related thread here a couple days ago.   Reality seemed to get exchanged for popular rhetoric in a few of the posts there.  Thank you for properly (I believe) pinning the tail back on the donkey.  

 

I will offer another point of view on categories, however.  I'm fast approaching 70.  I'm a relative newbie, but I closely associate with some very good CAS shooters who have BEEN regulars in the winners circle over many years.  They are still avidly competitive, but age creeps up on all of us.  We simply cannot physically move as fast as we once could, but we still like to play the game competitively.  

If there is only a single category or two or three, my older friends and I have no physical way to compete against young fellows like Matt Black or Bobcat Tyler, who still are in the part of their life where they have the capability, coordination and eyesight to shoot at light speed.  Absent some kind of contest geared for those of us who are half-blind with arthritis, hip replacements, and multiple other age related failings, there would be little point in spending the high cost of travel to go and shoot at EOT, Winter Range, or elsewhere. 

 

To some degree, the "close, big and fast" issue also relates to this.  We could still be very competitive, if the targets were 12" and 35 yards out, and the arrays were fairly complex.  Nobody would be moving as fast, so the ranking differences would be affected by skills other than just speed.

But what I read here on the Wire is that nobody would want to shoot more challenging target arrays, even at a World Championship match.  So a reasonable array of categories seems the best way to make happy as many people as possible.  - - - - But I will agree that there are now a LOT of categories.  Possibly some recombining would be realistic.  

Thank you again for an excellent post. 

 

Sass keeps adding categories to the top, but not to the younger end or the new shooter end and then wonders why it’s so hard to get/keep the younger shooters. 

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1 minute ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Sass keeps adding categories to the top, but not to the younger end or the new shooter end and then wonders why it’s so hard to get/keep the younger shooters. 

Valid point.  What might be added, in your opinion? 

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Valid point.  What might be added, in your opinion? 

I think a junior who shoots duelist or gunfighter has a harder time finding a category to be competitive in than a silver senior does. 

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Two quick points. For folks that want further targets and more prohibitions on equipment there is always NCOWS

 

As far as too many categories. I agree. St some matches some awards are more like a participation trophy since only three or four ( sometimes less ) folks are in a category. Another option might be Time Based categories....matters not how you shoot it, you would compete with other that shoot at your speed.....

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7 hours ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

Howdy,

It’s been several years since I’ve posted on the SASS wire even though I’ve followed it all along. Always like to keep up with old friends and see how they’re doing.

 

Now to the point of posting now. This years EOT sounded like it would have been fun to shoot since they’re finally moving the targets back out and making people use a little brain power to work their way through a stage. The dumbfounding thing that changed over the last few years is saying a stage was unfair because there was a missable target on it. Or it took too much thinking. Remember visiting with Hipshot around 2001 and he stated at that time a World Champion should be diverse in all skills. That means close, far, up and down, movement, reloading on the clock, hit a bird from flippers and launched plus transitions.

 

Most think the multitude of categories is a good thing. I disagree. The reason is, it puts pressure on everyone to place as high as possible so they’re not embarrassed by placing last or towards the bottom of their very small category. In the older days with fewer categories there were always at least 10 in the bulk of them, so the bottom didn’t have to go up front and divulge their finish. They could simply have fun and learn from the experience and try for a top ten at the next match. It used to be a win to even get to the top 10 in a category.

 

Years ago, the top shooters in SASS were well respected by the other shooting sports and manufactures due to the diverse skills it took to be successful. I realize a lot of people here don’t care, but you should. Advertising dollars comes with this respect which means a healthy prosperous SASS and more shooters in our game.

 

In today’s SASS, some gun mods have reached the point of dangerous for the sake of a few milliseconds in time saved. In my opinion, these have come about due to extremely close targets that requires the shooter only to have the ability to operate the firearm as fast as possible. Sight picture and trigger control were thrown out the window. If SASS intends to continue this trend of moving targets back out and make it a shooting match instead of an operating match, you’ll see me back at the major cowboy matches. And it’s not just me. I’ve visited with many old friends that left SASS for this very reason.

 

Some of the well-known mods are removing the transfer bar from Rugers and the lever assist links put in the 73’s. It doesn’t take but one accident with the Ruger or a blown up 73 to bankrupt SASS. If someone gets hurt or even killed by these mods, a family member can sue not only the gunsmith and the person that owns the gun, but also SASS for knowingly allowing these mods in their game and on their range. The signed waiver by the shooters will not be worth the paper it’s written on. It’s a long story, but I sat on a witness stand 35 years ago for 6+ hours and the company I worked for lost millions. They supplied power to a county fair facility but didn’t owned anything behind the primary metering. Two county employees were killed. The reason they lost was because they knowingly provided power to an unsafe facility. SASS is knowingly providing a venue for guns the manufactures have deemed unsafe.

 

For the good of SASS, my hope is they will move the targets out and stagger a few. Most of these mods would not help a competitor and would go away if they do.

 

Long Hunter

SASS #20389

 

 

Jim, I agree with you 100%. Thanks!

 

Assassin

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When you tune a Ruger you are not altering its function. But, when you take the transfer bar out you are altering its mechanics and the lawyers will have a field day suing everybody involved if someone gets hurt by that altered firearm. JUST SAYIN’!

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Long Hunter, good you see you around. You one of the guys that the game needs around.

 

There are general discussions and then specific discussions.

 

With regards to EOT/SASS, they need to figure out what will bring in the most revenue... What formula works for their venue. What worked in Norco will not work in Edgewood.

 

Regarding categories, CAS probably has by far the largest population of elderly men and women shooters participation. I think we would jeopardize that by removing categories.

 

Phantom

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I will be 76 in Aug.I have had a complete knee replacement.I have had my shoulder completely redone.I have had my eyes redone.Just my opinion if you move the targets out to 17 yards for pistols and 50 yards for rifle then Possum,and Crosscut and Texas Gator will still beat me the same as they did when they were  right on top of the shooters.I have not gotten to go shoot sense Harvey and the knee replacement.I will go and have as much fun if they are way out or on top of me.My  pistols have a little done to them that I did myself.My rifle has a little done to it.My shotgun is slicked up.I love to see fast guys shoot.The only pistol I have seen blowup was just lighter springs.Shooter,reloader screw up.Put the target out as far as you want and I will still have a ball.Pit

 

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I've long felt SASS has too many categories.  I was talking to one of our faster shooters here in the Southeast yesterday and he said (paraphrase as I can't recall exact words) that you wouldn't expect a group of people like the ones we shoot with would have expectations of bringing home a ribbon, or plaque, or something simply for showing up, similar to preschool kids playing soccer, but many do.  Any half way decent shooter in SASS is going to quickly accumulate a stack of stuff to the point where you have nowhere on the walls to put it.  Why do we have the saying 'choose your category wisely."  We have it because choosing your category can often be what determines whether you 'win' something. 

 

I had a lot of fun yesterday, shot OK, but not great.  I may have won my category (49er) probably did, but I'm a lot happier with 3rd overall (1st would have been better, but I wasn't up to it) than 1st place 49er.

 

With respect to this comment:

 

7 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

To some degree, the "close, big and fast" issue also relates to this.  We could still be very competitive, if the targets were 12" and 35 yards out, and the arrays were fairly complex.  Nobody would be moving as fast, so the ranking differences would be affected by skills other than just speed.

 

We've been on opposite sides a few times DDD, and as in the past I'm not trying to offend you, but once again you're way off the mark and your comment reveals inexperience with respect to what it takes to be a top shooter in SASS.   I've said this to you before:  Making matches more complex will NOT narrow the gap between an average shooter and a top shooter, quite the opposite.  Move them back, make the array more complex, make the targets smaller, I'm OK with that. I intentionally drive a fairly long distance once every month or so just to shoot at a match where the targets are extremely small and quite far away.  The first time I went there I had 7 misses, but I won overall.  The last time I went there I was clean, and won overall, and I'm definitely not a top shooter, B+ at best.  What you'll get will be a bigger gap between the top people and everyone else.  Try it sometime.  Find the best shooter you know, someone really good.  Both of you shoot a 10-10-4 stand and deliver double tap Nevada sweep, big and close. Note the difference in your times.  Then shoot whatever complex stage you want, whatever sizes and distances you want, but nice and difficult.  Note the difference in your times, it will be bigger.  Sure smaller targets and longer distances require more accuracy, which top shooter have plenty of.  Big and close places a premium on transitions and running the guns, not the same as accuracy, but a skill nonetheless, a skill that top shooters have in abundance.   That's why, in my view, a good match has a mix, not all big and close, and not all small and far or complex.  

 

Your statement assumes that speed is just something that happens and is not an acquired skill.  I disagree. 

 

We had a stage a while back where you had to shoot the targets (small, far and irregularly shaped) in the firing pattern of a Chevy small block 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2,  can't remember where the last two rounds went.  Guess what, the same familiar names were at the top of the rankings for that stage, no surprises.  The stage may have added a second or two to their normal times.  Everyone else had Ps, misses, and a lot more time to run the stage. 

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I’ve met Longhunter a couple of times super nice guy and one heck of a shooter, etc.

 

Here is my take I’m out of Florida, every once in awhile we incorporate the world record stage, the fast guys liked it somewhat but the majority of the shooters hated it, so that’s what I think about when sitting up a match, people spend a lot of money to make their rifles fast and they want to be able to make them sing. So I think Phantom’s position holds a lot of water on this thread and the one about EOT stages.

 

Gun mods I’m no lawyer but the transfer bar removal is for dependability not to make the gun faster. Colt Faro said Matt Black’s Ruger’s still have transfer bars in place, Deuce Stevens has said he does care for the short stroke for me personally the splits are about the same, between SS & not for Rugers. The 73 has a lever safety the 66 did not come with one.

 

I don’t like a manipulation match but you can have a happy medium and keep the majority who basically pay for the matches to keep them going.

 

AO

 

 

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7 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

And I really don't understand how making a Ruger function like a Colt becomes a safety issue.

Many shooters love their older Colt's..... with half cock and no transfer bar.

Many shooters lover their Rugers..... with half cock and no transfer bar.

I don't understand how that particular design (or modification) is a liability with SASS.

 

This! 

 

If a Colt SAA without a transfer bar is acceptable then so is a Ruger that's had it's transfer bar removed.  If you get hit in the face with a piece of blown up gun it will be small consolation that the gun was manufactured to work that way as opposed to modified to work that way.  The same is true for lever safeties in an 1873.  If an 1866 without a lever safety is considered safe enough for SASS then an 1873 that has been modified to run the exact same way is also safe enough for SASS.

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9 hours ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

Howdy,

It’s been several years since I’ve posted on the SASS wire even though I’ve followed it all along. Always like to keep up with old friends and see how they’re doing.

 

Now to the point of posting now. This years EOT sounded like it would have been fun to shoot since they’re finally moving the targets back out and making people use a little brain power to work their way through a stage. The dumbfounding thing that changed over the last few years is saying a stage was unfair because there was a missable target on it. Or it took too much thinking. Remember visiting with Hipshot around 2001 and he stated at that time a World Champion should be diverse in all skills. That means close, far, up and down, movement, reloading on the clock, hit a bird from flippers and launched plus transitions.

 

Most think the multitude of categories is a good thing. I disagree. The reason is, it puts pressure on everyone to place as high as possible so they’re not embarrassed by placing last or towards the bottom of their very small category. In the older days with fewer categories there were always at least 10 in the bulk of them, so the bottom didn’t have to go up front and divulge their finish. They could simply have fun and learn from the experience and try for a top ten at the next match. It used to be a win to even get to the top 10 in a category.

 

Years ago, the top shooters in SASS were well respected by the other shooting sports and manufactures due to the diverse skills it took to be successful. I realize a lot of people here don’t care, but you should. Advertising dollars comes with this respect which means a healthy prosperous SASS and more shooters in our game.

 

In today’s SASS, some gun mods have reached the point of dangerous for the sake of a few milliseconds in time saved. In my opinion, these have come about due to extremely close targets that requires the shooter only to have the ability to operate the firearm as fast as possible. Sight picture and trigger control were thrown out the window. If SASS intends to continue this trend of moving targets back out and make it a shooting match instead of an operating match, you’ll see me back at the major cowboy matches. And it’s not just me. I’ve visited with many old friends that left SASS for this very reason.

 

Some of the well-known mods are removing the transfer bar from Rugers and the lever assist links put in the 73’s. It doesn’t take but one accident with the Ruger or a blown up 73 to bankrupt SASS. If someone gets hurt or even killed by these mods, a family member can sue not only the gunsmith and the person that owns the gun, but also SASS for knowingly allowing these mods in their game and on their range. The signed waiver by the shooters will not be worth the paper it’s written on. It’s a long story, but I sat on a witness stand 35 years ago for 6+ hours and the company I worked for lost millions. They supplied power to a county fair facility but didn’t owned anything behind the primary metering. Two county employees were killed. The reason they lost was because they knowingly provided power to an unsafe facility. SASS is knowingly providing a venue for guns the manufactures have deemed unsafe.

 

For the good of SASS, my hope is they will move the targets out and stagger a few. Most of these mods would not help a competitor and would go away if they do.

 

Long Hunter

SASS #20389

 

 

Nail meet hammer. 

 

I'm amazed how often I have discussions with people about how much I loved cowboy shooting and roll into a tail of back in the day. I remember my first eot in 2006, there were so many shooters they had to run the main match twice on back to back weekends. At that eot there were considerably less categories, yet it was considerably more successful than in recent years. 

 

Not sure if this is relevant, but I'm going to throw it out there too. When we did away with traditional and modern in favor of age based categories, my now wife and I were in our early twenties. As the new categories we're approved and the numbers for the required amount of shooters for state and higher level matches were set, we started to find issues with it. At that time my wife would have been the only female shooter that fell into the 18-35 age range in the entire Northwest region. It would not be a far stretch to say that at the time, we felt unwanted and slowly started to attend fewer matches.

 

As for target placement, it needs to follow the conventions we have set in the handbook. If someone were to get hurt from splash off of a target closer than our own rules, I have to imagine the club hosting the match would be potentially liable.

 

All that being said, I'll end my $.02 with this. I have not been active in cowboy shooting in over 8 years now. In that time a lot has changed in my life, from trying out several other shooting disciplines to getting married and starting a family. Now I find myself wanting desperately to return to CAS with the same amount of passion and enthusiasm that I had as a young(er) man. This drive falls around my son and the simple fact that the SASS community is full of some of the best people I've ever met and is a great atmosphere for children to grow up in.

 

This post hits close to home because I know that I will always reminisce of the days when I first started shooting that instilled so much passion and excitement in me. CAS is still a wonderful game, it's just different from what I got addicted to it over a decade ago.

 

Shifty

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33 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

This! 

 

If a Colt SAA without a transfer bar is acceptable then so is a Ruger that's had it's transfer bar removed.  If you get hit in the face with a piece of blown up gun it will be small consolation that the gun was manufactured to work that way as opposed to modified to work that way.  The same is true for lever safeties in an 1873.  If an 1866 without a lever safety is considered safe enough for SASS then an 1873 that has been modified to run the exact same way is also safe enough for SASS.

Ruger went to the 'T' bar set-up, after losing a major lawsuit when they still made'em like a Colt.

Think about that....-_-

FWIW- I agree 110% with LH.

Respectfully,

OLG

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2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Ruger went to the 'T' bar set-up, after losing a major lawsuit when they still made'em like a Colt.

Think about that....-_-

FWIW- I agree 110% with LH.

Respectfully,

OLG

So then why hasn't Colt?  Why are 1866s still being made without a lever safety?  Did Uberti and Colt not get the memo?

 

Some Iron manufacturers have warnings on their product that says don't iron your clothes while wearing them.  We have warnings on coffee that it's hot.  Ruger stamped those ugly warnings on their barrels, cars now have rollover warnings on their sun-visors.  All these things were brought to us courtesy of stupid lawsuits.  I'm not going to live that way.  

 

Hard cases make bad law.

 

I have a family full of lawyers, so I understand what you're saying, BUT, I don't live my life in fear of a lawsuit.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So then why hasn't Colt?  Why are 1866s still being made without a lever safety?  Did Uberti and Colt not get the memo?

 

Some Iron manufacturers have warnings on their product that says don't iron your clothes while wearing them.  We have warnings on coffee that it's hot.  Ruger stamped those ugly warnings on their barrels, cars now have rollover warnings on their sun-visors.  All these things were brought to us courtesy of stupid lawsuits.  I'm not going to live that way.  

 

Hard cases make bad law.

 

I have a family full of lawyers, so I understand what you're saying, BUT, I don't live my life in fear of a lawsuit.

Don't know about Colt's lawsuit history. Bet those cases were seal or some such.

Colt at one time, had much 'deeper' pockets that Ruger.

I look at the Ruger T/bar like the seat belts in your car.

Good to have, and hope it's never needed............

OLG

 

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I think of them more like ABS for NASCAR.  Yeah, the street versions need them, but for competition they're superfluous, professional drivers can stop more quickly without them. 

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20 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Don't know about Colt's lawsuit history. Bet those cases were seal or some such.

Colt at one time, had much 'deeper' pockets that Ruger.

I look at the Ruger T/bar like the seat belts in your car.

Good to have, and hope it's never needed............

OLG

 

The way we load our guns for SASS , not having a T bar should not be a issue. 

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Just to clarify, the lever safety has nothing to do with the links I mentioned in my post. As far as Colt, their design was based on an 1873 revolver. Ruger's are a modern design. Have no idea but maybe Colts are somehow grandfathered in by law. It will take someone way smarter than me to answer that one.

 

As far as modifications, how far do we go. I can build you an 1873 that will fire when the lever safety in depressed. No need to even put a finger in the trigger guard. Just because I can certainly doesn't mean I should nor would I show anyone else how to do it. Already have seen some SA's with hammer notches ground completely off so no need to pull the trigger.

 

Some say you must remove the transfer bar in a Ruger to short stroke it. That's not the case. They can be short stroked with it left in the gun. Some say it makes them more reliable due to breakage. Every less part in any gun will remove a potential breakage problem but Ruger hasn't had a problem with their transfer bars breaking in over 10 years.

 

Uberti did get the message and now have built in safeties in their SA design.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Try it sometime.  Find the best shooter you know, someone really good.  Both of you shoot a 10-10-4 stand and deliver double tap Nevada sweep, big and close. Note the difference in your times.  Then shoot whatever complex stage you want, whatever sizes and distances you want, but nice and difficult.  Note the difference in your times, it will be bigger.  Sure smaller targets and longer distances require more accuracy, which top shooter have plenty of.  Big and close places a premium on transitions and running the guns, not the same as accuracy, but a skill nonetheless, a skill that top shooters have in abundance.   That's why, in my view, a good match has a mix, not all big and close, and not all small and far or complex.  

Thanks for the good discussion, CBB.  I agree with some parts of your post.  But please distinguish between a "rely good shooter", and a "really fast shooter".   As you posted, they're different skill sets. 

 

I simply don't move/coordinate my hands quickly enough any more to be a top ranking shooter in a really competitive speed contest, regardless of how easy the targets are to hit.   Normally I am lucky to be in the top 10 or 15% even in small local matches.  But I can consistently reach top ranks in any rifle or pistol accuracy contest, where speed is one component, but where targets are set to be challenging, and require slowing down for careful aiming (consciousness of BOTH sights), knowledge of sight image, steady hold,  and good trigger control. 

 

Even the best shooters have to slow down to hit golf balls at 8-10 yards.  When they have to slow down, I can usually begin to compete by shooting more accurately, using the other skill sets, above.  So a successful match appears to be about trying to balance the many  participants' abilities and preferences.   Originally, CAS started out to be a test of the full array of shooting skills, using 1800s firearms.  

 

I am personally glad to see an apparent excursion by SASS/EOT  away from extreme "close, big, and fast", and back toward pistol and rifle shooting that requires the WHOLE ARRAY of skills, in order to be a World Champion.  I am sure many of the same people will be at the top ranks, but as occurred this year,  some other folks with broader shooting skill sets will also make it into the winners circle. 

 

There are shooting sports available for every kind of shooter.  Our particular sport started out as a cowboy dress, 1800s single action firearms, difficult (and thematic) target array shooting sport.  As people developed better gun mods and speed skills, they naturally sought to use those to advantage.  So the sport gradually morphed, with targets drifting in closer and closer, arrays becoming simpler, and with the competition focusing more on speed.  That's really a different sport than what CAS started out being, but it is nevertheless very fun, exciting, and it attracts shooters.   I don't have a problem with any of that.  I will continue to shoot CAS, regardless. 

But in reading posts elsewhere on the Wire,  many people apparently did have a problem with targets set with more distance, wide angles, and difficulty, where their personal focus on speed shooting afforded less advantage.  They seemed to believe that shooting difficulty would begin to kill SASS, EOT, and CAS, in general.  That may be true, in fact.  But to me, target variety is traditional CAS.  It's what I personally came to the sport to do.   I will stick to my original posts on this general topic - - I believe variety is what will attract the most shooters and give them the most  fun.  I feel it has to be about balance.  

Just MHO.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Thanks for the good discussion, CBB.  I agree with some parts of your post.  But please distinguish between a "rely good shooter", and a "really fast shooter".   As you posted, they're different skill sets. 

 

 

You're welcome, it's nice to be able to agreeably disagree. 

 

In answer to your statement, they are different skill sets.  Top shooters are both good (accurate) shooters, and really fast shooters.  That's why they're 'top shooters'.  Give it time, you'll notice what I'm talking about, the harder the match, the bigger the gap between the big dogs and everyone else. Dixie's data on the other thread supported that.  Matt Black's time over the three EOTs changed about 2 seconds, the farther down the leaderboard you went, the more the time difference increased.

 

We are in agreement that variety makes matches more fun.

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There have been many threads about the how great the old days were and how target placement and a multitude of categories has ruined the game.  I will offer my $.12 worth as others have.

Phantom has it right, SASS has evolved to meet demand and to keep the "business" of SASS healthy. I remember all the complaints from the people getting older about how they can't compete with the younger shooters. So SASS created expanded age based categories. It allowed 80 year olds to not have to compete with 50 year olds! The categories expanded because more women got into the sport. So SASS added parallel categories to the men shooters. If 5 shooters are in a category and SASS wants to give them some award to make them happy, thats just good business.

 

I would offer that attendance isn't down because of close targets, gun mod's, speed, and so many categories but....our core group born in the golden age of westerns and cowboy culture has gotten old. For health reasons, retirement income, or death they don't attend anymore. The majority of shooters attending EOT and WR are "old". Unless the sport can get the younger generation away fro their X-Boxes and are willing to spend $5k the membership will continue to decline.

 

One of the long time shooters in our club has always said, 'wherever you go be prepared to shoot whatever, targets placement, reloads, movement, difficult scenarios it won't always be stand there and shoot 10-10-4'.

 

And as anyone knows liability wavers, rules, etc, has never and will never prevent someone and a lawyer from suing your ass! You can say modifying a 73 to be like a 66 will protect you. Put didn't Winchester make the mod because of out of battery discharges in the 66?

 

At a recent monthly shoot the stage writer moved all of the targets back with further separation between them. He wanted to bring back the good old days. Well we had a bunch of "P's", not one clean shooter and a whole bunch of people grumping. So not again.

 

Yeah, the good old days were great, but these are now the good old days.

Ike

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Posted (edited)

We have a lot of non-transfer bar Single Actions being used in SASS, (those that never had a Transfer Bar to begin with eg. Colt, USFA, Standard Manufacturing ((my old Blackhawks)). most Piettas, any percussion revolver, and others)... We only load 5, with an empty under the hammer, just for that reason.  The lawsuit against Ruger was due to an inexperienced person loading 6 and mishandling their Blackawk.  As long as we continue to have Loading Table Officers, or at the very least, have the next shooter double-checking the guns, (not the best solution, but on a small shooting group, the best we can do), then we should remain safe.   Those clubs that do not have an LTO or someone double-checking the guns are skating on the thin edge, as we have many lesser-experienced shooters in SASS.

 

As far as stages go, having a mix of types at local matches would take the "shock factor" out of slightly more difficult stages at larger venues.  We had a State match recently where the targets were further out and some of the stages required a bit of thinking...  There were a lot of P's and misses, (I earned a P and had a few misses too). Not because the match was "unfair", everybody had to shoot the same match... but because at the local monthlies, we all got used to big and close.   If we start mixing it up, some big and close, a few a bit more challenging, us middle and lower in the pack shooters would have some reference point and not be gobsmacked when presented with something different.  

 

Yes, I know, some will say, "why don't you write the stages then?"  I have been.  Yes, there have been some grumbles.  Everybody likes to go lickety-split, fast and clean.  But, are we doing the folks any favors?  Some staggered targets, some a little further back, some innovation, not as a steady diet, but a stage or two in the mix, can be a good thing.  This is not to slow down the top shooters, writing stages for that purpose is a recipe for disaster for the rest of us!!  This is to give us all more experience and exposure to a variety of stages.  

 

 

Edited by McCandless
grammer
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For the matches I write,  I'll do a thinking stage, an accuracy stage, three normal stages and one easy.  If it's one posse, I'll start with a normal stage or two to warn up, then do the thinking and accuracy stages, then a normal stage and then the easy stage so we can relax and go to lunch.  I'll have movement on all the stages, more when it's cooler, less when it's very hot or very cold and occasionally put in a stand and deliver stage for the easy stage.

 

I want it to be fun and allow those who want to shoot clean a reasonable chance to do it.  I also want enough of a mix so those who go to a larger match won't be too surprised at longer distances and smaller targets.

 

My general goal is 10 to 20% clean shooters.   I also don't want to see more than one P on a stage for 10 to 20 shooters.

 

YMMV

 

 

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

 You can say modifying a 73 to be like a 66 will protect you. Put didn't Winchester make the mod because of out of battery discharges in the 66?

 

 

 

 

A real ‘66 can not be fired out of battery for obvious reasons so, no, they didn’t. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

A real ‘66 can not be fired out of battery for obvious reasons so, no, they didn’t. 

 

I beg to differ.  Unless you mean the original rimfire couldn't be fired oob. The centerfire can, I have.

Edited by Tyrel Cody

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I beg to differ.

Ok. So how do you set off the primer on a rimfire without having a chamber mouth to back it up, and how do you explain the fact that the early ‘73s did not have a lever safety? 

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9 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Ok. So how do you set off the primer on a rimfire without having a chamber mouth to back it up, and how do you explain the fact that the early ‘73s did not have a lever safety? 

I edited my post accordingly, I wasn't thinking rimfire.

 

Were any of the original 73's rimfire? I'm assuming they added the lever safety as soon as they figured out the centerfire cartridge was a potential out of battery disaster. 

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