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Bart Slade

New Shooters / Short Weapons

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Greetings all!

 

I'll preface by saying I'm a total greenhorn - so won't take offence to being told I don't know shine from sh*tnola...but -

 

I've been considering the cost of getting into this sport (I've paid the price, but some can't)....

 

Has it been considered to let people into a match when they're short on weapons, and just have a penalty for being short?  For example, if all a person had was two pistols, let them shoot just the pistol portion of a stage, and assess a 5-second-per target / 10-second per section time (plus maybe some other addition) for their missing weapons?

 

It would mean they wouldn't be competitive, but they could at least join in during the local matches (and hopefully become interested enough to purchase the additional weapons) - and have a little fun.  

 

I realize some local clubs may already allow this, but perhaps advertising it as generally allowed would get more shooters in.

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I've found that there is usually no shortage of pards that are more than willing to let a new shooter use one of their shotguns or rifle to round out the arsenal.  Besides, that way the new shooter gets exposed to a wider variety of long guns and can make a better choice when it comes time to buy them.

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The local clubs have a lot of flexibility in what they allow.  Remember that rules are generally "a guideline".  (That line being taken from one of the Jack Sparrow movies.) That being said - more than likely someone is going to step-up and offer the shooter a loaner rifle and/or shotgun with ammo to shoot the match.

 

BS

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Marshal is right, there are more than enough pards to offer up a rifle... or whatever.

But sure, you could take misses for what you don't shoot. Yer option.

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I've mentioned this before but I think S.A.S.S. could create a few categories that would be official at monthlies and/or below state level annuals(at the MD discretion) and add them to the Handbook. 

 

For example:

 

Rifleman - Rifle and Shotgun

Pistolero - Revolvers and Shotgun

Working Cowboy - Rifle, Shotgun, 1 Revolver.

 

These classes wouldn't be at state and above matches and wouldn't be considered for overall, but it might get more folks to the monthlies.

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I didn't address what was going to be the obvious response - the community is very generous and willing to let other people try their guns.

 

But my thinking (and maybe this is just me) is that borrowing firearms from people they don't yet know is uncomfortable for some people.  Speaking for myself, I didn't go for the idea of coming to a match hoping I could borrow a bunch of guns.  

 

I'm just trying (as a new guy - so kind of 'outside looking in') to crack the "how do you get younger people involved" nut.   I've got a 27 and a 30 year old son, trying to figure out how to get them motivated (they are interested in coming to matches and using my guns).  If they had to borrow an unknown persons guns, I'm sure they wouldn't come.  But if they could get in for $200-$300.00 (the cost of one used pistol), they might go for that.

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6 minutes ago, Bart Slade said:

If they had to borrow an unknown persons guns, I'm sure they wouldn't come.

 

I really have never understood this. Speaking for me only, for 3 or so matches I'd borrow whatever I could(actually borrowed a shotgun for 4 matches when I started).  I've heard of cowboys in the same category loaning a rifle to another at a state level match; don't think they'd met before. 

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Posted (edited)

We have a couple of people a year start out short of stuff.  We always try to fill in as needed.  We had one guy that shot short rather than borrow. His choice. 

 

We have a guy now trying to Cowboy Up. He came and watched at our last match.  I got him to running the loading table. It is the best way to meet everytone on the posse and see all kinds of guns, etc.  He's excited!   He's trying to not only buy a set of guns but two sets so he'll have baxkups.  Last I talked to him he had a Rugged Gear cart ordered and got a nice cowboy hat.  He may borrow my leather if he doesn't come up with any before next match. 

 

We let people stage their handguns and shotgun shells if they don't have leather. 

Edited by Warden Callaway

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Posted (edited)

I was fortunate enough to have all of my guns and gear when I shot my first match.  What I didn't have was a gun cart!  I didn't even have to ask!!  Someone grabbed my guns and said, "Bring yer ammo!  I got room right here!"  I'd never been on the wire and had no idea what the etiquette was until that first match!  I learned quickly that most cowboys will share ALMOST everything!!  I hadn't brought enough shotgun shells. The president of the club saw this and just walked by and dropped a box of AAs in my bag.  He winked and grinned and walked away. I was wearing a vest with big pockets so that I could grab shells for my shotgun.  A well known leather maker handed me a six loop slide on the second stage, "Use this!" he said.

 

After the match, I went to find the cowboy who'd loaned me the shells so I could pay him for them. I still owe him for those shells and I hope that I've done enough around the range to repay him for that kindness. I tried to return that shotgun shell slide.  I was told to keep it 'til i got my shotgun belt......... and then give it to someone else when they needed one.  I bought the cowboy that shared his gun cart a couple of beverages a time or two.

 

 

My first time at a major event, another shooter blowup his rifle on the first stage.  I didn't know him from Adam's housecat, but I loaned him my backup for the rest of the match!!

 

My third monthly match. One of the founding members of the club was without his shotgun.  I loaned him a (new to me) '97 that I'd just bought and had tuned by a gunsmith.  I'd only shot it to make sure it worked.

 

The list goes on and on in both directions!!

 

I've made a point of trying to pay back/forward whenever the opportunity presents itself.  I've surely received more than I've given.  That's as good as it gets!!

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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4 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I really have never understood this. Speaking for me only, for 3 or so matches I'd borrow whatever I could(actually borrowed a shotgun for 4 matches when I started).  

 

Well, first - I'm talking about a first timer, a person who doesn't appreciate the SASS culture.

 

And second, I don't think we need to understand it - but we do need to recognize it.  

 

Maybe.  Like I said, "what do I know?"

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When I started the club I shot at (Panhandle Cowboys of NWFL) had a category called "Working Cowboy".  You used only one pistol and reloaded on the clock.  It was a lot of fun shooting that and at the time I couldn't afford 2 pistols, but I did get a 45ACP cylinder for my 1873 so I just swapped on the clock.

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It can be a problem in Aust due to our licencing.

 

We often have shooters start while still getting their pistol licence and they cant buy or handle a pistol (nope not allowed to use a loaner)

 

We let them shoot the rifle and SG and just note it on the score.

 

Makes for impressive begginer scores if you dont notice the "no pistol" mark:rolleyes:

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Most  people will lend firearms.  However, ammo is expensive and other peoples handloads almost always cause problems.  For Cowboy shooting, the loads are very light for the most part.   Even commercial 38 special lead loads are way too hot for what we shoot.  If you let the Match Director know you'll be there and could use an extra firearm, AND, have brought ammo from a reputable Cowboy source like Ten-X or Scarlett, you won't have a problem getting having people lend you a firearm and won't have problems shooting it.  Getting Low Noise, Low Recoil AA ammo from Winchester will work in any shotgun and any Cowboy/girl will not worry about damaging the firearm.

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1 hour ago, Bart Slade said:

Greetings all!

 

I'll preface by saying I'm a total greenhorn - so won't take offence to being told I don't know shine from sh*tnola...but -

 

I've been considering the cost of getting into this sport (I've paid the price, but some can't)....

 

Has it been considered to let people into a match when they're short on weapons, and just have a penalty for being short?  For example, if all a person had was two pistols, let them shoot just the pistol portion of a stage, and assess a 5-second-per target / 10-second per section time (plus maybe some other addition) for their missing weapons?

 

It would mean they wouldn't be competitive, but they could at least join in during the local matches (and hopefully become interested enough to purchase the additional weapons) - and have a little fun.  

 

I realize some local clubs may already allow this, but perhaps advertising it as generally allowed would get more shooters in.

Don't over think this.......:huh:

Have you even attended a SASS shoot yet?

OLG

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Posted (edited)

As a match director, I've allowed the approach of " misses for unfired rounds" for guns not fired, for many reasons.

 

Several other examples I've encountered/allowed:

 

-Experienced competitor with medical condition or shoulder surgery can't or doesn't want to shoot any shotgun rounds, but still wants to play.

 

-New shooter unfamiliar with even shooting a shotgun and doesn't want to borrow/try during a match.

 

-Buckaroo that didn't have access to a 410 and all the offered 12 ga shotguns were too heavy to hold up and operate.

 

 

Edited by Col. Cornelius Gilliam, SASS#5875TG
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43 minutes ago, Bart Slade said:

 

Well, first - I'm talking about a first timer, a person who doesn't appreciate the SASS culture.

 

And second, I don't think we need to understand it - but we do need to recognize it.  

 

Maybe.  Like I said, "what do I know?"

 

The first time someone goes bowling, do they start out with their own bowling ball and shoes, or do they rent them?  No problem not being fully equipped there, right.  I can't for the life of me understand why someone would ask that you make an exception to the rules, just for them, rather than accept a generous offer to shoot someone else's guns.  Go figure.

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Bart, please join us RUCAS at the Renton Game and Fish Club.

We shoot the first Sunday of the month and the Saturday preceding it.

Set up is on Friday Afternoon at 3pm.

Check out the web site.

There is no problem with a number of us lending guns and ammo as well as leather.

 

Half Fast Smitty

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We all gotta start somewhere. I understand being odd about borrowing a gun. I dont think I could ever ask to do so but if it's offered I believe that I would if it was a choice of using theirs or not shooting. Either use what's offered or watch and maybe do posse duties while you save up for what you want/need. If i'm not mistaken there's a club somewhere that has a rental rig and cart. Granted not all (or even most) can afford to do that but I thought it was a great idea. I've been offered to use guns just to see how I like them. Cowboys are a generous lot. My first match I didnt have a cart. The match director noticed and asked if anyone on my posse had space on theirs. It didnt take but a second and there was multiple people pushing their carts my way. I didnt know a single one of them at the time. 

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It is my experience that snatch will people who will share gladly. I remember my time err match I didn’t have a shotgun but another member of my posse said I could borrow his. I said great thanks and her is a box of Winchester shells for letting me, the feather lites were only $5 a box back then. He looked at me said thanks but they won’t fit. I replied well then I am screwed because the other box that I plan on shooting are the same. He smiled and then those would fit. I looked at him confused and then it dawned on me he was being nice and didn’t want payment for loaning me his shotgun. I am sure I passed a few similar stories above but telling the story was like saying thank you again to him. 

 

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5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Don't over think this.......:huh:

Have you even attended a SASS shoot yet?

OLG

 

Well, like I said, I'm a greenhorn - I've been to three practices and one matches (well, two matches, but I've only shot in one).

 

I have been lurking these subs for about 8 months (every since I found out about SASS) - and from what I can tell, "THE" big issue is finding new shooters.  Maybe I'm seeing that as a larger issue than it really is, that's certainly entirely possible.  So, speaking for myself, I first got interested last November (long story), and just started shooting this month (June).   What kept me away for so long?  Having to acquire the equipment.  I've read (and later found) that shooters are happy to share, but I didn't want to count on that.  I'd bet there are a LOT of people that don't want to count on that.   

 

Anyway, as inexperienced as I am...I do have a "new guy's" perspective, and I'd like for you guys to be able to take advantage of that while I still have it. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

The first time someone goes bowling, do they start out with their own bowling ball and shoes, or do they rent them?  No problem not being fully equipped there, right.  I can't for the life of me understand why someone would ask that you make an exception to the rules, just for them, rather than accept a generous offer to shoot someone else's guns.  Go figure.

In theory, I agree with you 100%.  In practice though...I'm personally not comfortable borrowing things from people I don't know, and I'm even more uncomfortable counting on borrowing things.  I'm perfectly comfortable going to a business and renting things (such as the bowling example).  Such as, I've been to gun ranges a few times and rented guns to shoot, but I would never go there and ask people if I could borrow their gun to shoot.  And to a new person, I think the gun range example is far more what's on their mind than the bowling example.

 

And as for why you would make an exception to the rules - I'm not saying make an exception, I'm suggesting "change them".  The reason being is that you want to draw in the guy who only has one gun (one pistol for example).  Once that person gets comfortable with borrowing other people's gear, they're likely to start doing so - but before they will you've got to get them in the door.

 

So I'm suggesting maybe forget "understanding" why a person wouldn't want to accept a generous offer, and just recognize that they exist and feel that way - and find a way to draw them in.

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1 hour ago, Half Fast Smitty said:

Bart, please join us RUCAS at the Renton Game and Fish Club.

We shoot the first Sunday of the month and the Saturday preceding it.

Set up is on Friday Afternoon at 3pm.

Check out the web site.

There is no problem with a number of us lending guns and ammo as well as leather.

 

Half Fast Smitty

Hey Smitty!

 

I've been shooting with Cedar County Sheriff the last three weeks (on Fridays) and attended the Cascade Ghostriders shoot a couple of weeks ago, and had a blast (as did my younger son who shot with me)!  I'm unfortunately out of town the first weekend of July - but we'll be around!  I was planning to shoot last weekend in Poulsbo, but was unexpectedly called in to work.

 

My son and I did borrow leather from Jus Dandee when we shot in Ravenesdale.   He (and everyone there) was very generous; shared his cart with us as well.  Everyone gave us tons of advice, it was well worth doing.

 

I just wish I'd have started up earlier when I only had one pistol!

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7 minutes ago, Bart Slade said:

I'm not saying make an exception, I'm suggesting "change them". 

 lol that's not gonna happen my friend. When I was gathering up my gear it would have been nice on my wallet to allow just 1 pistol or even if they allowed .22's for the adults but that's not how the game is played. It's a trade off IMO. if you want to shoot 1 pistol and either shotgun or rifle maybe try NCOWS. but then you're gonna spend a lot more on costuming. I cant see the point in changing the rules to accommodate a handful of people that maybe to bashful to borrow an item to get started. I've only been a SASS member since 2018 so i'm fairly new too. Keep in mind that there's a lot of monthly matches at clubs that allow a lot of different unofficial categories also. If it's not available maybe talk to the match director about making a working cowboy category just for these types of situations. Lots of approaches to take besides changing the rules.  

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Sounds like you've already found some great people up here in the NW to help you get going.

 

For the most part, we (and nearly all clubs) will just do whatever it takes to make sure new shooters have a full set of guns (and leather if possible) to shoot with.  It's not a huge deal, the club just needs to know in advance that someone is showing up who needs everything including ammo... and it'll just happen.

 

Sure someone can shoot just the guns they have and score the misses on the rest, but it's less confusing to just loan them whatever is needed.  About the only time it happens that way is sometimes a new shooter is REALLY new to shotguns and gets beat up or tired of it after a couple of stages.  Better to let them come back to it next match than let them get bruised up or scared of the SG for no reason.  Everyone gets comfortable with it eventually as long as they don't develop a fear of the gun during the process.

 

No better way to get people hooked than to show them the full deal.  And if they need the guns for a few more matches, same thing.  They just need to make arrangements and be sure to let the club know they are coming.  As long as they are actively in the process of getting geared up I don't know many cowboys who won't bend over backwards to help them play in the meantime.

 

Hopefully the gun laws will remain as they are so we can keep loaning during matches.

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37 minutes ago, Bart Slade said:

 

Well, like I said, I'm a greenhorn - I've been to three practices and one matches (well, two matches, but I've only shot in one).

 

I have been lurking these subs for about 8 months (every since I found out about SASS) - and from what I can tell, "THE" big issue is finding new shooters.  Maybe I'm seeing that as a larger issue than it really is, that's certainly entirely possible.  So, speaking for myself, I first got interested last November (long story), and just started shooting this month (June).   What kept me away for so long?  Having to acquire the equipment.  I've read (and later found) that shooters are happy to share, but I didn't want to count on that.  I'd bet there are a LOT of people that don't want to count on that.   

 

Anyway, as inexperienced as I am...I do have a "new guy's" perspective, and I'd like for you guys to be able to take advantage of that while I still have it. 

 

 

 

 

Do your reload?

Everydangbody here, was new at one time to SASS. :D

I have never had an issue loaning my guns to a new shooter(set's the 'hook'^_^).

My only demand, is that they use my ammo in my guns..........

It's also a good way to find the guns that 'fit' you.

OLG

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Bart-When SASS started, it was a 1 handgun deal.

They went to 2 HG's, because the majority of shooters wanted to shoot more rnds per stage.

SASS will never go back to just 1 handgun........;)

OLG

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It’s never come up in terms of new shooters, but when my middle son was starting out the shotgun was too much for him so I had him skip it and take the penalties. We shot at quite a few clubs in the southeast and never had a problem.

 

My youngest is doing the same now and again, no problem.

 

I suspect most clubs would react to what you’re proposing similarly and in a short time the newcomer would either feel more comfortable borrowing guns or have bought his own.

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No rule change is necessary.  If a shooter chose not to shoot a firearm they could take the penalties.

 

As an aside we generally don't refer to our match firearms as "weapons".

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45 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Bart-When SASS started, it was a 1 handgun deal.

They went to 2 HG's, because the majority of shooters wanted to shoot more rnds per stage.

SASS will never go back to just 1 handgun........;)

OLG

That's one thing that I really like about NCOWS. Working Cowboy class is one pistol and one pistol caliber rifle.

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The real reason I have "back ups" for my 92 and Baikal sxs is so new shooters can borrow them. I do carry a back up Remington but that is just in case one of mine craps out (also not likely). I have no problem loaning my old rifle or shotgun to a new shooter, I'll even supply as much ammo as I can.

 

Sorry, but my revolvers are not to be fired by anyone but me.

 

No one else has ever fired one and no one probably ever will, unless I decide to sell them, which is very unlikely to happen since I'd be lucky to get half what I have into them out of them. I built those guns myself, to my liking and it cost me a fortune. Cost me nearly twice what a pair of SASS Rugers cost!

 

Although, I would like to watch one of the top shooters run them, just to see what they can actually do. Trust me, it's not the Remingtons that makes me slow...lol... 

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3 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

 

 

As an aside we generally don't refer to our match firearms as "weapons".

Speak for yourself. As a combat veteran, I will never refer to them as anything else. 

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Club guns would be one approach 

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20 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

I don’t show up to golf short a driver or a putter or irons. If you come to play bring the required equipment. 

 

But you can get a budget set of clubs for the price of 1 gun; not to mention renting clubs is possible at a lot of courses.

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11 hours ago, Will Killya said:

That's one thing that I really like about NCOWS. Working Cowboy class is one pistol and one pistol caliber rifle.

 

There-You found an answer.

PLZ let us know how it works out

BTW-NCOWS doesn't allow guncarts like we use in SASS. ;)

OLG

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