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New Shooters / Short Weapons


Bart Slade

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14 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Do your reload?

Everydangbody here, was new at one time to SASS. :D

I have never had an issue loaning my guns to a new shooter(set's the 'hook'^_^).

My only demand, is that they use my ammo in my guns..........

It's also a good way to find the guns that 'fit' you.

OLG

Well, I plan to reload.  I don't currently - but I'm planning to start this weekend with some used gear (and some basic tools) I picked up.  I'm starting with a bunch of hand tools (other than a Lee Load's All II that I picked up for $10.00), I want to see the nuts and bolts of it before I decide on any kind of bench press.  Using BP of course!

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1 minute ago, Bart Slade said:

Well, I plan to reload.  I don't currently - but I'm planning to start this weekend with some used gear (and some basic tools) I picked up.  I'm starting with a bunch of hand tools (other than a Lee Load's All II that I picked up for $10.00), I want to see the nuts and bolts of it before I decide on any kind of bench press.  Using BP of course!

Get a case gauge, so you know your rnds will chamber.

https://www.dillonprecision.com/dillon-handgun-case-gages_8_3_25548.html

 

Don't go the cheap on a scale either.........

OLG

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14 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

 lol that's not gonna happen my friend. When I was gathering up my gear it would have been nice on my wallet to allow just 1 pistol or even if they allowed .22's for the adults but that's not how the game is played. It's a trade off IMO. if you want to shoot 1 pistol and either shotgun or rifle maybe try NCOWS. but then you're gonna spend a lot more on costuming. I cant see the point in changing the rules to accommodate a handful of people that maybe to bashful to borrow an item to get started. I've only been a SASS member since 2018 so i'm fairly new too. Keep in mind that there's a lot of monthly matches at clubs that allow a lot of different unofficial categories also. If it's not available maybe talk to the match director about making a working cowboy category just for these types of situations. Lots of approaches to take besides changing the rules.  

You make excellent points there, you're right that most local clubs would accommodate a person who was short guns.  And once the person got to a shoot, they'd certainly be loaned guns.

 

What I'm driving at though is getting younger people in the door.  We need to look at this from the perspective of the younger crowd we're trying to attract.  The question being - how do you get them to a match?  My assumption there being, once you get them to a match - somebody will loan them guns, they'll be hooked...just like everyone is saying.  But you have to get them there first.

 

So the accommodation I'm floating is, what if  SASS made it clear you could join a match if you only had one pistol?  The rules are set up so that you take a penalty that would ensure you're not competitive (even if you're awesome with that pistol), so no harm to any of the other people at the match.  And, odds are, that person that shows up with one pistol is going to be loaned everything else they need for the match.  So the "rule change" (If you can even call it that - I'd say it's more of a "clarification" that you can take a bunch of misses for weapons you don't have, and more importantly advertising that) is more about getting the first timer to come to a match than it is an actually functioning rule.

 

But, maybe a better solution is to just make it clear that a person can show up with one pistol (or one shotgun, or one rifle) and join in the fun.   

 

 

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14 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Bart-When SASS started, it was a 1 handgun deal.

They went to 2 HG's, because the majority of shooters wanted to shoot more rnds per stage.

SASS will never go back to just 1 handgun........;)

OLG

You're absolutely right, and I don't mean to be suggesting going back to a 1 handgun deal.  My suggestion is that it be explicitly OK to use just one handgun at a local match - and then either reload on the clock or take a time penalty - 5 misses and a procedural, plus maybe a "no gun" penalty of 15-30 seconds.

 

This way, there's no impact to any of the people with the proper equipment - they're going to do far better timewise (unless they take a SDQ or something) so no effect on the people who are trying to compete.

 

I can certainly accept that my idea seems to be falling flat; but most of the feedback I'm seeing highlights the generous nature of the SASS community - my suggestion is aimed at drawing people in to experience that community.  Where I'm from (Seattle suburbs - in an area far more urban than rural), people aren't used to that kind of generosity.  Even having spent a few months reading blogs and watching youtube videos and such about how great the community is, I was STILL surprised.  

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14 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

As an aside we generally don't refer to our match firearms as "weapons".

I offer you a sincere "Thank You!" for calling me out on that.

 

Having lurked these subs for a few months, I'm aware (intellectually) that we don't refer to our firearms as "weapons" in this community, but habitually I'm having a hard time fixing that.   I'll get it sooner or later.

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19 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

Greetings all!

 

 

Howdy Bart, and welcome!

A lot of clubs handle this in different ways, and it would be up to the individual club to advertise or advise you on what they do.  It is way too diverse for SASS itself to take this on.  There are also a great many clubs out there that are not-SASS affiliated, that are run by SASS rules.

 

Different clubs handle this in different ways.  For instance, some clubs let new folks bring out their .22s to round out their outfits.  Some let you use a modern shotgun, that you just load 2, until you get your "cowboy" shotgun.  Some let you use your double-action revolver, (loaded with "cowboy loads), until you can get your cowboy guns.  Some clubs have loaner guns just for this purpose, and you use the club's guns and ammo, (you buy the ammo).

Still, other clubs have "sodbuster categories" one pistol and one rifle, until you can get your other guns... 

 

The best way to start is by talking to the contact person at the club, the one who has published their name, number, and e-mail address just for that purpose.  Talk over the situation, and see what that club does.  Personally, I've loaned revolvers, shotguns, and rifles, along with the ammo for folks to shoot, or when they had malfunctions.  I don't mind a bit.  Getting in touch beforehand will let you know what your options are.

 

Good luck and good shootin'!

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35 minutes ago, Bart Slade said:

I offer you a sincere "Thank You!" for calling me out on that.

 

Having lurked these subs for a few months, I'm aware (intellectually) that we don't refer to our firearms as "weapons" in this community, but habitually I'm having a hard time fixing that.   I'll get it sooner or later.

 

I'll continue to refer to all of my firearms as "weapons", regardless of the opinions of some of our members.  They have their semantics, I have mine.

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4 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

Well, I plan to reload.   I want to see the nuts and bolts of it before I decide on any kind of bench press.  Using BP of course!

BP is the best BANG for your buck lol. An inexpensive single stage is the way to go for learning and for loading BP IMO. But if you think you'll load smokeless at some point you may want to start with a torret press. functions like a single stage but you can have all of your dies installed and rotate the head to the next die. I only load BP for cas. If and when youre ready start loading feel free to pm me with any questions. I'm always happy to help. 

 

 

4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Don't go the cheap on a scale either.........

totally not needed for loading black powder or subs. not really needed to load smokeless for our game either. we arent shooting precision or anywhere near max loads. 

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As another noob I get what Bart is saying. 

 

The folks at my local clubs were extremely generous in allowing my to try their gear till I had my own.  I'd stalked here enough to know folks were usually okay with it.  I borrowed gear long enough to figure out what worked for me (which I really appreciated).  But...  I can't say I was super comfortable with it.  I wasn't made to feel that way by any means.  It was just a personal thing for me, like I was mooching I guess even when told it was no issue at all and I brought my own ammo.  Then there's the 'what if I break it' anxiety.  It was entirely my own hang up.  It's hard to explain.  I was fortunate enough to be able to shell out for gear once I decided on what I wanted.  A 25 - 30 year old version of me would not have been able to do that.  It would have taken me a while to gear up, maybe a long while.  Not sure I would have been able to endure borrowing another shooters gear for that long.  It's funny, if it was the clubs "loaner set" I would have been a lot better with it haha.  Like I said, my own hang up for sure...

 

How long is too long to use other peoples gear anyway?

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4 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

What I'm driving at though is getting younger people in the door.  We need to look at this from the perspective of the younger crowd we're trying to attract.  The question being - how do you get them to a match?  My assumption there being, once you get them to a match - somebody will loan them guns, they'll be hooked...just like everyone is saying.  But you have to get them there first.

 

So the accommodation I'm floating is, what if  SASS made it clear you could join a match if you only had one pistol?  The rules are set up so that you take a penalty that would ensure you're not competitive (even if you're awesome with that pistol), so no harm to any of the other people at the match.  And, odds are, that person that shows up with one pistol is going to be loaned everything else they need for the match.  So the "rule change" (If you can even call it that - I'd say it's more of a "clarification" that you can take a bunch of misses for weapons you don't have, and more importantly advertising that) is more about getting the first timer to come to a match than it is an actually functioning rule.

 

But, maybe a better solution is to just make it clear that a person can show up with one pistol (or one shotgun, or one rifle) and join in the fun.   

 

 

 

I'm not really seeing this as much of an issue to get new shooters to a match. I'd say a vast majority of new shooters that show up to watch a match doesnt have a clue as to what they do or do not need to start. I honestly feel like those of us that are interested/enjoy this game are the ones that grew up watching westerns on tv and idolized cowboys. Todays younger generations are more geared towards characters like John Wick and that's not this sport. Antique weapons are a niche market and cowboy gear is an even smaller part of that niche. Come for the shooting, stay for the people is 1000% correct IMO. Dont get me wrong I love the era that we represent at our matches but if the people had the attitude that i've seen at other shooting disciplines matches I wouldnt have stayed long. We (SASS) could certainly use some more marketing if they want to up attendance and memberships, but individual clubs have to do their part. I think my home club does an excellent job at getting the word out to our community. 

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1 hour ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

 

totally not needed for loading black powder or subs. not really needed to load smokeless for our game either. we arent shooting precision or anywhere near max loads. 

 

You can't be serious :wacko:

Then, how do you confirm, the charge that your powder measure throws is within specs? 

OLG

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14 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

You can't be serious :wacko:

Then, how do you confirm, the charge that your powder measure throws is within specs? 

OLG

Simple. If your gun looks like this, there's too much powder

image.png.84804e104566e68aa38306f293aa2a1b.png

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26 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Simple. If your gun looks like this, there's too much powder

image.png.84804e104566e68aa38306f293aa2a1b.png

 

I think the smithy screwed up the directions when you told him you wanted your revolver "ported", El Hombre.

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47 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

I think the smithy screwed up the directions when you told him you wanted your revolver "ported", El Hombre.

Haha that could be it. Come one now, you know this isn't mine. Like I would own a Ruger

3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Can you tell us the story behind this? :huh:

OLG

No I can't. I just did a simple google image search to find it. You'd be surprised how many other pictures there are of blown up guns. I didn't see any with black powder though. That's all I shoot these days.

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

You can't be serious :wacko:

Then, how do you confirm, the charge that your powder measure throws is within specs? 

OLG

Easy enough. you dont measure black powder by weight. It's by volume. there's only a couple throwers on the market geared for black powder. Which I dont use. I use a powder measure designed for black powder that measures volume. As for smokeless, I use conversion charts and check my lee auto disk powder measure with a lee dipper maybe once every 10-15 rounds. Like I said we arent shooting anything close to the max end of pressures that our modern guns are designed to handle. If you are loading for precision shooting or trying to do long range shooting etc then my all means you would certainly want a good scale. Is it necessary for cowboy loads? No. There's other ways to check your powder throw. Is a scale more accurate than checking against dippers? More than likely but 1 or 2 tenths of a grain isnt gonna make or break a gun when you're loading in the lower end of the suggested powder charges. 

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1 hour ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Haha that could be it. Come one now, you know this isn't mine. Like I would own a Ruger

 

 

Good point. :P

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17 minutes ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Easy enough. you dont measure black powder by weight. It's by volume. there's only a couple throwers on the market geared for black powder. Which I dont use. I use a powder measure designed for black powder that measures volume. As for smokeless, I use conversion charts and check my lee auto disk powder measure with a lee dipper maybe once every 10-15 rounds. Like I said we arent shooting anything close to the max end of pressures that our modern guns are designed to handle. If you are loading for precision shooting or trying to do long range shooting etc then my all means you would certainly want a good scale. Is it necessary for cowboy loads? No. There's other ways to check your powder throw. Is a scale more accurate than checking against dippers? More than likely but 1 or 2 tenths of a grain isnt gonna make or break a gun when you're loading in the lower end of the suggested powder charges. 

 

Dang-That sounds like a real slow way to go-After 55+ years of reloading. I'm sticking with a calibrated powder scale.

Also-A good scale is more accurate and faster way to check your powder.

A scale also lets you check for bullet weight variance when casting for long range shooting.

OLG

 

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24 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

A good scale is more accurate and faster way to check your powder.

A scale also lets you check for bullet weight variance when casting for long range shooting.

I agree. but that wasnt what was in question from how I understood it. I said it wasnt necessary for our game. Useful, faster, and more accurate most certainly but not needed for this application. 

 

I do not load much in the way of smokeless ammo. maybe 1000 rounds a year vs the 10,000 rounds a year of black powder cartridges. speed of reloading isnt my thing lol

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47 minutes ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

I agree. but that wasnt what was in question from how I understood it. I said it wasnt necessary for our game. Useful, faster, and more accurate most certainly but not needed for this application. 

 

I do not load much in the way of smokeless ammo. maybe 1000 rounds a year vs the 10,000 rounds a year of black powder cartridges. speed of reloading isnt my thing lol

 

Just gonna have to disagree about not using a scale in reloading.

To me-It's a major safety tool.........;)

OLG

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9 hours ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

I'll continue to refer to all of my firearms as "weapons", regardless of the opinions of some of our members.  They have their semantics, I have mine.

But that's not what they are... Sometimes it's the little things that matter...

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6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You really wanna get into this debate?

 

:lol:

It’s not a debate. Words have meaning, the definition of weapon is listed above, now tell me how the 1873 wasn’t designed to inflict physical damage.  Cowboys just used them to shoot steel right? Never to hunt or to shoot people.

 

Of course like the Red Queen you probably believe words mean what YOU want no more no less.

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

It’s not a debate. Words have meaning, the definition of weapon is listed above, now tell me how the 1873 wasn’t designed to inflict physical damage.  Cowboys just used them to shoot steel right? Never to hunt or to shoot people.

Well dang, let's go back to the stone Age and talk about rocks.

 

Life shouldn't be taken out context.

 

How one chose to use their rifle defined it. Would you like to discuss all the various man made objects that have been used to harm/kill??

 

This'll be fun!!!

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11 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

I offer you a sincere "Thank You!" for calling me out on that.

 

Having lurked these subs for a few months, I'm aware (intellectually) that we don't refer to our firearms as "weapons" in this community, but habitually I'm having a hard time fixing that.   I'll get it sooner or later.

Don't bother, this new, enlightened "political correctness" is really double-speak for "Public Cowardice".  Firearms and a number of other things fall into the overall category  generally known as Weapons.  Whatever you do, don't call 'em "guns"... as that's reserved for Naval arms.  Similar in class to the Army's "field pieces"!   For accuracy's sake, what we use are termed "small arms", further sub divided to shoulder- or hand- fired small-arms.  A rose is a rose... whatever others may fantasize about calling it.  Small-arms are simply more efficient weapons than say,  rocks.  Whether used for sporting purposes or not... they're still weapons.

 

As for your suggestion... it's been promulgated at least twice a year since the creation of the first web-based blog about the sport.  Even we only used 3 arms, there were those that wanted a special classification to allow them to use the two they had... The general reaction has been just as presented here... why should the rules be altered to suit the demands of the few, to we'll loan you all that your little heart desires... 

 

As for the why don't people want to borrow someone else's guns... how about this hypothesis:  many folks don't like to loan their belongings... so as a justification, they don't borrow from others.  Let's say I don't have a tool I need for a project I'm doin', but know that my neighbor does... but my neighbor is notoriously tardy in returning things I've loaned him in the past... (who hasn't been burned in this fashion)... so you make it a habit not to borrow from him.    A policy that gets broadened to include "anyone".  

 

And, in the final analysis, since the SASS rules allow for clubs to run their own affairs, why add more confusion to a handbook to seems to stymy otherwise intelligent adults... but children seem to grasp the basic dogma... be safe and have fun!

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12 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I didn't see any with black powder though. That's all I shoot these days.

 

I knew eventually I'd hear my name being called...

 

ASM Walker, 285gn conical, 40 grains of either 3f or 4f, not sure I didn't screw up and put 4f in it and that's what caused it... may have been just cheap ASM steel, who really knows. I know for a fact it wasn't due to smokeless because I wasn't reloading at the time yet and owned no smokeless. Maybe I forgot the lube, maybe I put 4f in it, maybe the 285 was just too much, I'll never know...

 

But yes, I blew up a walker...:unsure:

 

WALKERKILLED_zps61c19a11.jpg

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7 hours ago, Griff said:

Don't bother, this new, enlightened "political correctness" is really double-speak for "Public Cowardice".  Firearms and a number of other things fall into the overall category  generally known as Weapons.  Whatever you do, don't call 'em "guns"... as that's reserved for Naval arms.  Similar in class to the Army's "field pieces"!   For accuracy's sake, what we use are termed "small arms", further sub divided to shoulder- or hand- fired small-arms.  A rose is a rose... whatever others may fantasize about calling it.  Small-arms are simply more efficient weapons than say,  rocks.  Whether used for sporting purposes or not... they're still weapons.

 

As for your suggestion... it's been promulgated at least twice a year since the creation of the first web-based blog about the sport.  Even we only used 3 arms, there were those that wanted a special classification to allow them to use the two they had... The general reaction has been just as presented here... why should the rules be altered to suit the demands of the few, to we'll loan you all that your little heart desires... 

 

As for the why don't people want to borrow someone else's guns... how about this hypothesis:  many folks don't like to loan their belongings... so as a justification, they don't borrow from others.  Let's say I don't have a tool I need for a project I'm doin', but know that my neighbor does... but my neighbor is notoriously tardy in returning things I've loaned him in the past... (who hasn't been burned in this fashion)... so you make it a habit not to borrow from him.    A policy that gets broadened to include "anyone".  

 

And, in the final analysis, since the SASS rules allow for clubs to run their own affairs, why add more confusion to a handbook to seems to stymy otherwise intelligent adults... but children seem to grasp the basic dogma... be safe and have fun!

Public cowardice???

 

Really!?

 

So you're okay with calling semi-autos "assault rifles"??!

 

Please...

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6 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Public cowardice???

 

Really!?

 

So you're okay with calling semi-autos "assault rifles"??!

 

Please...

Well... actually, since you brought it up.... no.  Not all "assault rifles" (whatever they are) are semi-autos, nor are all semi-autos assault rifles.   Any rifle can be used for the purpose of engaging in the act of  an assault.  Any hammer can drive a nail to frame a house, but that doesn't make all hammers "framing hammers".  

 

English can be a very precise language... or it can be extremely imprecise, which our fellow patriots on the other side of the 2nd Amendment interpretation seem to use very well in arguments of fantasy when not called on their very purposeful mis-identification of any firearm.  I am firmly on the side of calling them out on their lies and use of in-accurate terms to just gain a reaction.   But, just because a gun enthusiast used the imprecise term of "weapon" in talking about  firearms in general or his in particular, is no reason to jump all over that particular inaccuracy.  It doesn't come across my screen as an attempt to shock or otherwise scare little children into quivering lumps of molten jello, ready to run out a vote to ban all "weapons"... (As you know an impossible fantasy on the part of those that participant in such)... 

 

Why continue to lend any credence to their suppositions?I have examples of the firearms that were used to "assault" the Little Big Horn, San Juan Hill, Dunkirk, Normandy and Hill # 289... the fact that ones just like them were used to DEFEND other places seems to have escaped everyone's attention.  Assault and defend are very distinct and different verbs describing action... a firearm or any weapon, for that matter is incapable of imparting any action without the involvement of an animate being.  I'd use the term "human", but I'm unsure of just how "human" someone that perpetuates an unprovoked assault on another is.  'Nough said, I've broke my keyboard..

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