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Sinola Kid

Am I missing something - dropped loaded revolver

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I was at a local monthly last weekend.  There were two posse’s.  I was on a stage working the unloading table.  Between shooters I was watching the other posse on the stage next to us.  

 

It it was a weird stage, the old school type, where you started seated in a chair.  Got up and went thru a fairly stable bar door set up.  

The main problem was the the chair was so low and rickety most people had some issues with it.  But the biggest problem was when a shooter sat down and his revolver, one not both, fell out of his holster to the ground.  

The match director had him stand up, In front of the muzzle, then picked up the revolver and reholstered it for him.  I assumed at the time that this was a MDQ.  

 

But then as I continued watching the shooter was not directed to the unloading table.  In fact he was told not to sit down and just shoot the stage anyway starting from a standing position. 

 

I know many of you probably think I should have stepped in and challenged why this was not a MDQ.  But it was the match director that made the call.  

 

I really don’t see where safety is something that should be flexible at any match level. 

Am I missing something??

 

Thoughts?

 

Sinola Kid

 

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Based on your OP, I believe an MDQ would have been the call. Even though the hammer should've been down on an empty chamber. The shooter should have DQ'd himself in my opinion. Saw a shooter DQ himself at a local last month because he discovered upon starting his pistol string, he must of had the hammer down on loaded chamber. No-one noticed or said anything. He admitted the mistake and took the penalty. You can't argue with kind of integrity in my book. He did Posse work for the rest of the match. The incident happened on stage 2.

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Everyone KNOWS that "SASS rules don't apply at local monthly matches."...Right?

 

<_<

 

 

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You are correct in your assessment.

 

The proper thing for the shooters should do to avoid the situation is to refuse to shoot the stage as written. If not allowed to engage the stage from an alternate position then walking away would be in order. Many inexperienced stage writers place elements in a stage which look like "fun" on paper but quickly become hazards when put into action. Sitting is one of those things. Many buscadero rigs are very low slung on the leg and when the shooter is asked to sit, the revolver becomes near horizontal to the ground.

One way of making such a stage acceptable is to stage the revolver on a table/prop before sitting. (Although getting up from a low chair is quite a challenge for many older competitors)

 

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I did that exact thing at a match about ten years back - I sat down on the low stool, and with my long legs, both holsters were tipped back at a severe angle and BOTH guns fell out in the gravel. :(

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Well, it was a terrible stage design.  So perhaps the MD considered it a prop failure?

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27 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Well, it was a terrible stage design.  So perhaps the MD considered it a prop failure?

 

I agree, 

 

Unfortunately,  with the demographics of the group we shoot with, our stages and props have to be handicap accessible. It would be fun to have stages with a lot of movement and challenge but most of us are not up to it.  

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Sitting with holstered revolvers (on a chair, bench, or saddle) was discovered to be very poor (unsafe) stage design many years ago.

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13 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Sitting with holstered revolvers (on a chair, bench, or saddle) was discovered to be very poor (unsafe) stage design many years ago.

 

I agree!!

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25 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Sitting with holstered revolvers (on a chair, bench, or saddle) was discovered to be very poor (unsafe) stage design many years ago.

Unfortunately it’s still done at some clubs.

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I seldom use a seated starting position (bad knees, ya know), but if I do... ALWAYS put the revolvers on the table!

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Posted (edited)

But Fellers...... isn't sitting down one of those 'The way it use to be Fun scenarios"?  (sarcasm mode off)

 

Sinola Kid:  although we are all safety officers, your position on the other posse put you in the P'nut Gallery

and I think it was wise of you NOT to interfere.   I would have done the same thing as you and kept quiet.

Sadly, some clubs are very lenient on safety issues, regardless of SASS rules or not.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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The fact that the MD had the shooter place himself downrange from the gun and THEN RETRIEVED the gun is more troubling than letting the call slide in my case.  Letting it slide, is lax enforcement of rules.  Placing the shooter in a position where he gets swept by a loaded gun is a failure to follow basic safety precautions.  Given the stage design perhaps it's not surprising.

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We've started out sitting on a piano bench in front of the piano in the saloon (yes we have an old piano) but our pistols were staged at the bar. We used to sit on a wagon also but the pistols were staged in holsters on the wagon. There's ways to start sitting down if you just think about the safety aspect.

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I have a large round heavy wooden table ($25 at Goodwill) that we disassembled, then put back together with Gorilla Glue and screws.  It easily holds all four guns for a stand-and-deliver, if desired.  Shooter sits on a very heavy straight-backed chair that also got the glue/screw treatment.  All four table legs are screwed to the wooden deck.  If needed, shooter can use his/her arms on the table top to help push to a standing position - the thing is not going to move.   Pistols are always staged on the table.  Last time, the starting position was " Shooter seated behind the table, playing cards in one hand, shot glass in the other.  Say the line, at the beep..."

 

I've used it three times during our annual matches, haven't had any problems...and no complaints - at least that I know of!

 

CS 

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1 hour ago, Count Sandor, SASS #74075 said:

I have a large round heavy wooden table ($25 at Goodwill) that we disassembled, then put back together with Gorilla Glue and screws.  It easily holds all four guns for a stand-and-deliver, if desired.  Shooter sits on a very heavy straight-backed chair that also got the glue/screw treatment.  All four table legs are screwed to the wooden deck.  If needed, shooter can use his/her arms on the table top to help push to a standing position - the thing is not going to move.   Pistols are always staged on the table.  Last time, the starting position was " Shooter seated behind the table, playing cards in one hand, shot glass in the other.  Say the line, at the beep..."

 

I've used it three times during our annual matches, haven't had any problems...and no complaints - at least that I know of!

 

CS 

 

However you also stated that your starting position was to have revolvers staged on table, which is recommended for sitting stages.

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26 minutes ago, Red Eye Jim said:

 

 

However you also stated that your starting position was to have revolvers staged on table, which is recommended for sitting stages.

Jim, I don't understand your response.

 

CS

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Yes MDQ should have been called per the rules. I'm also with you on just keeping quiet for 2 reasons. 1st it wasnt your posse and 2nd the MD made the call. Honestly who do you even go to when it's the MD making poor calls? Not long ago I saw a MD drop a pistol. rather it fell out of his holster during movement from one shooting position to another. The TO made the MDQ call. Several posse members said "it's only a monthly, let him finish shooting the day and just dont count the scores." IMO the MD made the right decision and put his guns up for the remainder of the day and ran the timer. Hope he has his holster situation taken care of for this saturday i'd hate to see it happen again. 

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8 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Saw a shooter DQ himself at a local last month because he discovered upon starting his pistol string, he must of had the hammer down on loaded chamber. No-one noticed or said anything. He admitted the mistake and took the penalty. You can't argue with kind of integrity in my book. He did Posse work for the rest of the match. The incident happened on stage 2.

He was honest but too hard on himself given that the appropriate penalty is a SDQ.

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Unfortunately, this phenomena happens time and time again.  The lack of rules enforcement or just plane not knowing the rules is relatively common at all levels of play from local to World.  One of the more sad things is that at annuals, state and regional matches the Black Pins in attendance are not used to better effect.  Making them earn recertification doesn't warrantee that they will be up on the rules but makes it more likely than someone that last attended RO 1 or 2 ten years ago.  It is a sad waste of knowledge that SASS does not require large matches to use those people that have for the most part worked hard to learn the rules.

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so - just referencing the facts of my own local issues - should this not be a local issue and not a SASSNET issue ? just wonderin here , 

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Shot a match about 10 or so years ago. The match writer had the shooters shooting their long guns with their bad hands. Righties shot left handed and Lefties, right handed. I refused. Unsafe is not fun.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Bramble Mountain Buzzard said:

Shot a match about 10 or so years ago. The match writer had the shooters shooting their long guns with their bad hands. Righties shot left handed and Lefties, right handed. I refused. Unsafe is not fun.

 Edit on re read…

 

That would be difficult. Especially with a shotgun and the loading/ reloading of said gun. Ouch!

Edited by Dantankerous

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18 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Sitting with holstered revolvers (on a chair, bench, or saddle) was discovered to be very poor (unsafe) stage design many years ago.

Many, many years ago. 

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31 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Many, many years ago. 

Does that make it any less safe?

Or are you agreeing that this was settled long ago?

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We stopped making shooters sit on crappy chairs, get in bath tubs, and other stuff that is too difficult for most shooters to navigate many years ago due to safety concerns.

 

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15 hours ago, Assassin said:

We stopped making shooters sit on crappy chairs, get in bath tubs, and other stuff that is too difficult for most shooters to navigate many years ago due to safety concerns.

 

A lot of that stuff was deemed unsafe years ago but some clubs still did it anyway. IMHO, of course, it’s even more unsafe nowadays because of advancing age and maladies that may add to the hazard.

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