Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
doc roy l. pain

EOT stages

Recommended Posts

This was the, hands down, best EOT shooting venue that I've had the pleasure taking part in, period!!    I even shot my pistols clean,, save for 4 lost due to a squib,,  and only one rifle when I was arguing with myself over how fast to shoot a stage,,,  and a P for a brain fade,,....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/24/2019 at 6:48 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm going to preface my comments with the following:

 

1. Everyone involved worked their butts off to bring a quality match to all that came 

 

2. I appreciate all the hard work!!!

 

3. I respect all those folks that worked so hard and volunteered their time, energy and money.

 

That said, I think the direction of the match is going in the wrong direction.

 

EOT, like all other Championship matches has no qualifying requirements. Most that attend do so hoping to have fun while understanding that they're not going to win.

 

EOT is kinda in the middle of nowhere, so there isn't much of a draw outside of the shooting event itself... Makes the shooting experience super critical in determining the level of participation.

 

I'm fearful that this new philosophy will hurt attendance.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

Phantom

What Phantom said reflects my opinion of this EOT. so no need to repeat. 

for the shooters that think EOT should be more difficult because it is the world Championship, lets look at the NBA finals they don't raise the basket or move the 3 point line back to make it more difficult . it is the competition that makes it more difficult. 29 clean shooters should say something about the difficulty of the match compared to the last 5 or so years.  I will be back but more for redemption, than for the fun.

RCD

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Widder, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't see how SG targets in closely spaced twos is not an advantage for dbl shooters.

And as a thought, try odd numbers of SG targets and you'll get some feedback.

I don't see that the SG targets were any advantage to double shooters. I shoot a double and shot on a Posse with Sidekick and Cobra Cat, both '97 shooters. I couldn't begin to keep up with either of them on SG targets.

 

Now if your goal is to put double shooters at a disadvantage odd numbers of targets with movement between will certainly do it!

 

Randy

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697 said:

What Phantom said reflects my opinion of this EOT. so no need to repeat. 

for the shooters that think EOT should be more difficult because it is the world Championship, lets look at the NBA finals they don't raise the basket or move the 3 point line back to make it more difficult . it is the competition that makes it more difficult. 29 clean shooters should say something about the difficulty of the match compared to the last 5 or so years.  I will be back but more for redemption, than for the fun.

RCD

Does the NBA move the three point in closer for the finals? Or lower the basket? Because as of now, all of the major matches move their targets in closer and make them bigger than just about every single local club does. I have no problem with that, but you guys need to stop being hypocrites about it. Just because some people think the world championship should be harder than regular matches doesn't mean you should compare it to a sport when the exact opposite has been going on for years, as in getting bigger and closer the larger the match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2019 at 12:28 AM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

A member of the Wild Bunch made a comment to me, quite a few years back, that I took to heart.

It was a smaller annual shoot; maybe a couple hundred shooters; at that time around 26 categories.

He said, "There are two hundred folks here and only twenty six can win.  You have to provide a good reason for the other hundred and seventy four to come back".

 

My daughter buckled - so she wants to return.

I didn't buckle - so I want to return to redeem myself.

Ok, we have our "good" reason to come back.

 

My wife placed at the end of the score sheet. 

No buckle.

No expectation to buckle if she returns  next year.

 

Frustrated by the target placements and angles.

Confused by the brevity of the stage descriptions.

 

As overall shooter number 600 something...

What's her good reason to return?

This is what all match directors should keep in mind!  Its not about the 20% at the top and why they are at the top, its entertainment for the other 80% and they are the ones that pay the bills!

 

WK

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Does the NBA move the three point in closer for the finals? Or lower the basket? Because as of now, all of the major matches move their targets in closer and make them bigger than just about every single local club does. 

 

Bigger matches are moving them in typically because shooters have more fun so attendance goes up!  This means more money in the clubs pockets.  Last I checked people like hearing steel ring!  Best I've felt post a match that I helped put on was hearing the excitement in a well traveled shooters voice about how this was the first State Match or above she was able to clean!  "DING" not "DIRT" makes for happy shooters....Happy shooters come back!  

 

WK

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Whiskey_Kid said:

 

Bigger matches are moving them in typically because shooters have more fun so attendance goes up!  This means more money in the clubs pockets.  Last I checked people like hearing steel ring!  Best I've felt post a match that I helped put on was hearing the excitement in a well traveled shooters voice about how this was the first State Match or above she was able to clean!  "DING" not "DIRT" makes for happy shooters....Happy shooters come back!  

 

WK

Yes. Exactly. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. People should just be saying that. But a couple of people now have tried to compare SASS to other sports and it's not even apples to oranges, but rather apples to corned beef hash. It's beyond disingenuous to try to claim that SASS shouldn't be making the championships harder because other sports don't, when in fact SASS is making the championships easier. For what it's worth, I have my personal preferences, but I will more than happily go along with whatever is best for SASS and keeps the game going long into my retirement. I selfishly want my turn to get the RV and go to every big match across the country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697 said:

What Phantom said reflects my opinion of this EOT. so no need to repeat. 

for the shooters that think EOT should be more difficult because it is the world Championship, lets look at the NBA finals they don't raise the basket or move the 3 point line back to make it more difficult . it is the competition that makes it more difficult. 29 clean shooters should say something about the difficulty of the match compared to the last 5 or so years.  I will be back but more for redemption, than for the fun.

RCD

Case in point to Roy's Creek Dan's post regarding 29 clean shooters and "the difficulty of the match compared to the last 5 or so years".  Does anyone remember why T.A. Chance became the match director for EOT a few years ago?  It is my understanding it was related to a major decline in attendance due in large part to difficult stages and/or distant targets, etc.

 

T.A. Chance is the match director for Bordertown/Arizona State Match, which is one of the most popular in the country, i.e. it sells outs every year shortly after apps are available.  Bordertown is known as a "big and close" match, which is popular with a lot of shooters. He designed stages for EOT that were well received and the attendance numbers began increasing.  Those stages had lots of variety with a mixture of target size and distance along with interesting scenarios.  T.A. retired after being co-match director with Lassiter the final year, which I believe was 2017. 

 

So, I believe what Phantom and Creeker as well as others including me are looking at regarding EOT this year is that it was changed quite a bit from what those of us attending for the last 5-6 years had become accustomed to.  Also, please remember SASS is a business and that business is selling entertainment.  If people are not having fun - the majority that is - they will go elsewhere to spend their time and money.  We all know you can't possibly please everyone, but if you don't please the core group the business cannot survive.

 

In comparing this year's scores with 2018 and 2017 (rank scoring final year) here is what I saw:

                      

Place     2019          2018          2017   

1st         181.21       180.77       179.09

5th         217.86       195.27       186.61

10th       228.34       202.23       204.93

15th       237.38       206.52       210.51

20th       243.65       210.91       224.24

30th       253.27       222.30       220.96

50th       272.85       236.92       244.09

100th     298.76       266.43       266.86        

150th     326.22       288.31       286.04

200th     351.10       311.66       309.19

 

As has been said many times, the top shooters will be the top shooters regardless of the stage setup.  However, you will notice a sharp increase in total time even at 5th place and going higher through 200th place and beyond.  Also, what do these higher scores do to the overall time required to complete the match when you have 500-600 shooters?

 

PLEASE DO NOT take this in any way other than pointing out how the change this year may very well have a huge impact on future attendance.  My main concern is the future of EOT and SASS.  We all enjoy the game and want to bring in more people to join in the fun!

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Dodge City Dixie said:

Case in point to Roy's Creek Dan's post regarding 29 clean shooters and "the difficulty of the match compared to the last 5 or so years".  Does anyone remember why T.A. Chance became the match director for EOT a few years ago?  It is my understanding it was related to a major decline in attendance due in large part to difficult stages and/or distant targets, etc.

 

T.A. Chance is the match director for Bordertown/Arizona State Match, which is one of the most popular in the country, i.e. it sells outs every year shortly after apps are available.  Bordertown is known as a "big and close" match, which is popular with a lot of shooters. He designed stages for EOT that were well received and the attendance numbers began increasing.  Those stages had lots of variety with a mixture of target size and distance along with interesting scenarios.  T.A. retired after being co-match director with Lassiter the final year, which I believe was 2017. 

 

So, I believe what Phantom and Creeker as well as others including me are looking at regarding EOT this year is that it was changed quite a bit from what those of us attending for the last 5-6 years had become accustomed to.  Also, please remember SASS is a business and that business is selling entertainment.  If people are not having fun - the majority that is - they will go elsewhere to spend their time and money.  We all know you can't possibly please everyone, but if you don't please the core group the business cannot survive.

 

In comparing this year's scores with 2018 and 2017 (rank scoring final year) here is what I saw:

                      

Place     2019          2018          2017   

1st         181.21       180.77       179.09

5th         217.86       195.27       186.61

10th       228.34       202.23       204.93

15th       237.38       206.52       210.51

20th       243.65       210.91       224.24

30th       253.27       222.30       220.96

50th       272.85       236.92       244.09

100th     298.76       266.43       266.86        

150th     326.22       288.31       286.04

200th     351.10       311.66       309.19

 

As has been said many times, the top shooters will be the top shooters regardless of the stage setup.  However, you will notice a sharp increase in total time even at 5th place and going higher through 200th place and beyond.  Also, what do these higher scores do to the overall time required to complete the match when you have 500-600 shooters?

 

PLEASE DO NOT take this in any way other than pointing out how the change this year may very well have a huge impact on future attendance.  My main concern is the future of EOT and SASS.  We all enjoy the game and want to bring in more people to join in the fun!

 

Could not agree more. Well put Dodge City Dixie.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I don't see that the SG targets were any advantage to double shooters. I shoot a double and shot on a Posse with Sidekick and Cobra Cat, both '97 shooters. I couldn't begin to keep up with either of them on SG targets.

 

Now if your goal is to put double shooters at a disadvantage odd numbers of targets with movement between will certainly do it!

 

Randy

Not having been there (confessed to that early on) I cannot speak for the EoT SG targets; I was merely speaking of CAS matches in general. I cannot see how two closely placed or groups of twos are not faster to engage than spread out targets for a double. all other things being equal.

And I would never design a stage to make it harder on one shooter over another. What I said was that if you put up an odd number of shotgun targets, dbl buys would have choice words for ya... so we keep em even. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dixie nailed it. SASS is a business and people don’t spend their entertainment money on something that isn’t entertaining, not for long anyway.

 

Thanks for the data Dixie, it’s very illuminating. So a shooter placing 100th two years ago would average 3.5 seconds slower per stage in 2019. That 17.5 second stage back then is now 21. That’s big.

 

I will definitely go to EOT at some point, with the rest of the clan in tow, just for the overall experience.  Whether we make it a habit will be based on the shooting.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

EOT has been a dream for me. Watched it in '96 and '97 in California. It was the coolest thing. Now that my daughter is grown up and I've gotten over some personal hurdles I am planning on having that dream come true next year - we'll see. It will be a long drive, cost a good penny, and I'm limited on vacation days. Always marvel at folks that can do it that live further than me - it definitely shows their passion! Reckon there are hotels close by :D ....

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Dixie nailed it. SASS is a business and people don’t spend their entertainment money on something that isn’t entertaining, not for long anyway.

 

Thanks for the data Dixie, it’s very illuminating. So a shooter placing 100th two years ago would average 3.5 seconds slower per stage in 2019. That 17.5 second stage back then is now 21. That’s big.

 

I will definitely go to EOT at some point, with the rest of the clan in tow, just for the overall experience.  Whether we make it a habit will be based on the shooting.

No, not necessarily.  It depends on whether or not it was the same shooter, assuming that whoever placed 100th in 2019 is as capable as the 100th shooter in 2018, or the scenarios were exactly the same except for distance.

  • Like 1
  • Confused 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274 said:

EOT has been a dream for me. Watched it in '96 and '97 in California. It was the coolest thing. Now that my daughter is grown up and I've gotten over some personal hurdles I am planning on having that dream come true next year - we'll see. It will be a long drive, cost a good penny, and I'm limited on vacation days. Always marvel at folks that can do it that live further than me - it definitely shows their passion! Reckon there are hotels close by :D ....

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

The Comfort Inn in Edgewood is the closest by far.  Get your reservations in early to get a room.  I needed a room for the night before the early shift and got one two days before at the Sunset in Moriarty.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
typo
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

No, not necessarily.  It depends on whether or not it was the same shooter, assuming that whoever placed 100th in 2019 is as capable as the 100th shooter in 2018, or the scenarios were exactly the same except for distance.

Ok, but that difference holds up for 150th and 200th. I just looked, for 300th the difference is over 40 seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

No, not necessarily.  It depends on whether or not it was the same shooter, assuming that whoever placed 100th in 2019 is as capable as the 100th shooter in 2018, or the scenarios were exactly the same except for distance.

 

1 hour ago, Two Spurs said:

100th     298.76       266.43       266.86        

150th     326.22       288.31       286.04

200th     351.10       311.66       309.19

 

1 hour ago, Dodge City Dixie said:

1st         181.21       180.77       179.09

I think you are missing the point.

 

First place spread from '18 to '19 is .44 seconds, Between '17 and '18 is 1.68 seconds.

Now look at 100th place '18 to '19 is 32.33 seconds, between '17 and '18 is .43 seconds

150th place '18 to '19 is 37.91 seconds, between '17 and '18  is 2.27 seconds

200th place '18 to '19 is 39.44, between '17 and '18 is 2.47 seconds.

 

'17 to '18 are very close, something obviously happened to those of us who aren't the Overall Top Level Shooters between '18 and '19.

 

Thanks

Randy

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Ok, but that difference holds up for 150th and 200th. I just looked, for 300th the difference is over 40 seconds.

CBB,

Probably more movement than any EOT I can remember in 20 years.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dodge City Dixie said:

Case in point to Roy's Creek Dan's post regarding 29 clean shooters and "the difficulty of the match compared to the last 5 or so years".  Does anyone remember why T.A. Chance became the match director for EOT a few years ago?  It is my understanding it was related to a major decline in attendance due in large part to difficult stages and/or distant targets, etc.

 

T.A. Chance is the match director for Bordertown/Arizona State Match, which is one of the most popular in the country, i.e. it sells outs every year shortly after apps are available.  Bordertown is known as a "big and close" match, which is popular with a lot of shooters. He designed stages for EOT that were well received and the attendance numbers began increasing.  Those stages had lots of variety with a mixture of target size and distance along with interesting scenarios.  T.A. retired after being co-match director with Lassiter the final year, which I believe was 2017. 

 

So, I believe what Phantom and Creeker as well as others including me are looking at regarding EOT this year is that it was changed quite a bit from what those of us attending for the last 5-6 years had become accustomed to.  Also, please remember SASS is a business and that business is selling entertainment.  If people are not having fun - the majority that is - they will go elsewhere to spend their time and money.  We all know you can't possibly please everyone, but if you don't please the core group the business cannot survive.

 

In comparing this year's scores with 2018 and 2017 (rank scoring final year) here is what I saw:

                      

Place     2019          2018          2017   

1st         181.21       180.77       179.09

5th         217.86       195.27       186.61

10th       228.34       202.23       204.93

15th       237.38       206.52       210.51

20th       243.65       210.91       224.24

30th       253.27       222.30       220.96

50th       272.85       236.92       244.09

100th     298.76       266.43       266.86        

150th     326.22       288.31       286.04

200th     351.10       311.66       309.19

 

As has been said many times, the top shooters will be the top shooters regardless of the stage setup.  However, you will notice a sharp increase in total time even at 5th place and going higher through 200th place and beyond.  Also, what do these higher scores do to the overall time required to complete the match when you have 500-600 shooters?

 

PLEASE DO NOT take this in any way other than pointing out how the change this year may very well have a huge impact on future attendance.  My main concern is the future of EOT and SASS.  We all enjoy the game and want to bring in more people to join in the fun!

 

It has been called to my attention that T. A. Chance is no longer the match director for Bordertown.  He stepped down 3-4 years ago, however they say his influence carries on.  We hope to attend this match in the near future as we've heard nothing but good things about it.  I apologize for the incorrect information.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Longest Pistol Shot was UNDER 7 yards

Longest Rifle Shot was 12 yards

 

Closest Pistol Shot was 4 yards

Closest Rifle Shot was 7 yards

 

Pistols 4 to 7 yards.....more closer to 6 than 4

Rifle 7 to 12 yards....more closer to 10 than 7

 

You guys make it sound like a bullseye match when it wasn’t. Do I care for that many cowboy cut-outs? Not really but we’re all shooting the same targets in the same arrays. 

 

My first EOT WAS 2010....I shot the SAME steel this year that I shot then. The Match Directors can only put out what they have.

 

I personally don’t like big and close on every stage. Variety is the key to a good match and this was a damn good match. 

 

Stan

  • Like 11
  • Thanks 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

CBB,

Probably more movement than any EOT I can remember in 20 years.  

 

Good point BB.

Another thing to consider that would effect these stats should be the number of 

NEW shooters (relatively less than 2 years).

 

But I don't have a clue as to how to get those numbers.

 

..........Widder

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Good point BB.

Another thing to consider that would effect these stats should be the number of 

NEW shooters (relatively less than 2 years).

 

But I don't have a clue as to how to get those numbers.

 

..........Widder

 

I believe there were somewhere around 110 first time EOT shooters this year, heard that from a couple of sources and I believe Misty mentioned it during her opening comments at the grand opening ceremony.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Quite a few points of view are being expressed here. It seems like there are several purposes which EOT is trying to cover, but they aren't necessarily congruent. 

 

On one hand, EOT it is heavily billed as a THE World Championship CAS match, where the world's best shooters compete for the Championship buckles, denoting the single best in the World for their particular category or as overall best in World.  That implies very tough competition, which is going to require a test of the best shooters' abilities to bring things together into a championship performance.  By necessity, the stages have to be fairly complex, in order to separate the shooters.  Consequently less competent shooters will find those stages extremely challenging or even impossible to shoot without misses or Procedural penalties.  But that is what CHAMPIONSHIP is about in any sport.  It is geared to test the very top end. 

 

On the other end here, we are reading from numbers of people feeling very strongly that the EOT match and SASS itself will fail to attract enough market share and will die, if that same World Championship match is not made easy enough for average shooters to enjoy, which means to compete in the match with some success and without disappointment..  

 

The two objectives are not parallel ones.  It is unlikely that the same match can accommodate both sets of goals.  How do you make a match challenging enough to test the world's top shooters, yet easy enough for guys like me to enjoy? 

Simply stated, you don't.  

 

If you feel that the time clock alone can be the arbiter, and the same match will be made competitive by the differential in time that each shooter requires for its completion, then we will quickly see those with the most expensive and tricked out guns beat all the other championship grade shooters. 

So is EOT intended to become a championship gunsmithing contest?  IMHO, I think the speed-arbiter format misses important parts of what CAS is about.   A real lot of CAS shooters expect more than just stage after stage of stand and shoot at close targets for fast times.

 

Not everyone (maybe no one) will agree with me, but just in reading here, I see two very different sets of objectives.  It may be time to re-analyze what we SASS members want to get from EOT.   Perhaps the all-comers-welcome  approach is not very workable.  So perhaps the event should have more than one series of matches, for different levels of shooter competency, and we should have to win preliminary rounds in those matches as the prerequisite to gain access to compete in the final championship match.   That way, everyone can enjoy matches at whatever level of shooter competency they may be at at the time, and the championship match can contain some shooting challenges besides just the time clock.   

Just my $0.25 worth.  

 

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I liked this match setup just fine.  No stage had targets too far out or at too extreme an angle.  No target was "hard" to hit.  There was no favoritism to any gun.  From many perspectives this was an easy match setup.  One of the beauties of this match was that it balanced the importance of the 3 gun types.  The degree of difficulty between rifle, SG, pistol  made all three important.  Shooters like to do well, but I don't think any shooter has fun when told to stand in a phone booth and shoot the wall.  Shooting involves sights, steady hand(s), and trigger control.  A little of all those is a good thing and should be a part of every match but most importantly a World Championship.  For every person that might not attend because they can't have a "gimme" clean match you'll lose two that want to have a shooting contest!

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Quite a few points of view are being expressed here. It seems like there are several purposes which EOT is trying to cover, but they aren't necessarily congruent. 

 

On one hand, EOT it is heavily billed as a THE World Championship CAS match, where the world's best shooters compete for the Championship buckles, denoting the single best in the World for their particular category or as overall best in World.  That implies very tough competition, which is going to require a test of the best shooters' abilities to bring things together into a championship performance.  By necessity, the stages have to be fairly complex, in order to separate the shooters.  Consequently less competent shooters will find those stages extremely challenging or even impossible to shoot without misses or Procedural penalties.  But that is what CHAMPIONSHIP is about in any sport.  It is geared to test the very top end. 

 

On the other end here, we are reading from numbers of people feeling very strongly that the EOT match and SASS itself will fail to attract enough market share and will die, if that same World Championship match is not made easy enough for average shooters to enjoy, which means to compete in the match with some success and without disappointment..  

 

The two objectives are not parallel ones.  It is unlikely that the same match can accommodate both sets of goals.  How do you make a match challenging enough to test the world's top shooters, yet easy enough for guys like me to enjoy? 

Simply stated, you don't.  

 

If you feel that the time clock alone can be the arbiter, and the same match will be made competitive by the differential in time that each shooter requires for its completion, then we will quickly see those with the most expensive and tricked out guns beat all the other championship grade shooters. 

So is EOT intended to become a championship gunsmithing contest?  IMHO, I think the speed-arbiter format misses important parts of what CAS is about.   A real lot of CAS shooters expect more than just stage after stage of stand and shoot at close targets for fast times.

 

Not everyone (maybe no one) will agree with me, but just in reading here, I see two very different sets of objectives.  It may be time to re-analyze what we SASS members want to get from EOT.   Perhaps the all-comers-welcome  approach is not very workable.  So perhaps the event should have more than one series of matches, for different levels of shooter competency, and we should have to win preliminary rounds in those matches as the prerequisite to gain access to compete in the final championship match.   That way, everyone can enjoy matches at whatever level of shooter competency they may be at at the time, and the championship match can contain some shooting challenges besides just the time clock.   

Just my $0.25 worth.  

 

 

I don't want to argue or attack, but have you been reading any of the previous three pages of posts?

EoT is a large match that happens to be our "World Championship". You don't have to qualify for it and anyone can attend. You haven't had to demonstrate your skill to be allowed in and some of the "best in the world" may not even be attending. Stages "have to be complex" in order to "separate the shooters"? Says who? In any competition at any CAS match, the shooters will be "separated" by their abilities and maybe even some luck or bad breaks thrown in there.

You do not writes stages to separate shooters to test their "World Champion" qualities. Is a world champion crowned? Yes. Do the top shooters in the world compete to see who is the best? For the most part. Do you want good, interesting stages for all of the shooters attending? Yes. Do you want to ramp up the challenge of the stages for this event over any other large match? I feel that you do not.

And if you think that high-end, tricked out guns are what win championships, you are sorely mistaken. Sure, top shooters use good stuff, but they put in many hours of practice to be where they are, no matter what the stages are. From what I've heard over the past three pages is that shooters, for the most part, want EoT to be a grand match that is NOT overly challenging with complicated stages and small, far targets. Shooters like to do well and even though you can't make EoT a "gimme" match, it can't be so challenging that shooters leave feeling frustrated and not wanting to return. We are at a point where we really need to bring in new shooters to perpetuate our beloved sport and if our Grand Match gets a reputation of being a frustrating, difficult match to shoot, then we may have a harder time doing that. Will the top shooters still attend and win? Of course. Will Joe Middle-of-the-Pack shooter continue to travel to distant NM to attend? I doubt it.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Quite a few points of view are being expressed here. It seems like there are several purposes which EOT is trying to cover, but they aren't necessarily congruent. 

 

On one hand, EOT it is heavily billed as a THE World Championship CAS match, where the world's best shooters compete for the Championship buckles, denoting the single best in the World for their particular category or as overall best in World.  That implies very tough competition, which is going to require a test of the best shooters' abilities to bring things together into a championship performance.  By necessity, the stages have to be fairly complex, in order to separate the shooters.  Consequently less competent shooters will find those stages extremely challenging or even impossible to shoot without misses or Procedural penalties.  But that is what CHAMPIONSHIP is about in any sport.  It is geared to test the very top end. 

 

On the other end here, we are reading from numbers of people feeling very strongly that the EOT match and SASS itself will fail to attract enough market share and will die, if that same World Championship match is not made easy enough for average shooters to enjoy, which means to compete in the match with some success and without disappointment..  

 

The two objectives are not parallel ones.  It is unlikely that the same match can accommodate both sets of goals.  How do you make a match challenging enough to test the world's top shooters, yet easy enough for guys like me to enjoy? 

Simply stated, you don't.  

 

If you feel that the time clock alone can be the arbiter, and the same match will be made competitive by the differential in time that each shooter requires for its completion, then we will quickly see those with the most expensive and tricked out guns beat all the other championship grade shooters. 

So is EOT intended to become a championship gunsmithing contest?  IMHO, I think the speed-arbiter format misses important parts of what CAS is about.   A real lot of CAS shooters expect more than just stage after stage of stand and shoot at close targets for fast times.

 

Not everyone (maybe no one) will agree with me, but just in reading here, I see two very different sets of objectives.  It may be time to re-analyze what we SASS members want to get from EOT.   Perhaps the all-comers-welcome  approach is not very workable.  So perhaps the event should have more than one series of matches, for different levels of shooter competency, and we should have to win preliminary rounds in those matches as the prerequisite to gain access to compete in the final championship match.   That way, everyone can enjoy matches at whatever level of shooter competency they may be at at the time, and the championship match can contain some shooting challenges besides just the time clock.   

Just my $0.25 worth.  

 

 

No offense Dave, but this is pretty far off the mark.  "we will quickly see those with the most expensive and tricked out guns beat all the other championship grade shooters."  What?  "the stages have to be fairly complex in order to separate the shooters."  What?  The shooters will be separated without regard to the complexity of the stages, making them more complex just increases the gaps between the top shooters and everyone else.  Take a look at the numbers Dixie provided.  They support what many have been saying for years.  Making stages harder has almost no effect on the top shooters at all, but it has a big effect on everyone else.

 

I regularly shoot with some really good shooters, sometimes at matches where the stages are very easy to shoot and sometimes where they are not.  I'm here to tell you what separates those top guys out has nothing to do with whether one of them has short stroked pistols and the other doesn't.  They're operating on the bleeding edge of what is humanly possible to do with our guns, sometimes they crash and burn on that edge and end up with a time the rest of us would love to have but for them it costs them a match.  Skill, consistency and a little luck every now and then is what separates them, not what they're shooting, regardless of stage design.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are in my opinion 3 groups of people that enjoy CAS.

   The first group enjoy dressing the part down to the socks, and stepping back in time for a little while to get out of the rat race. Match outcome to this group matters little as long as they "can have fun doing it."

    The second group of people have the goal of shooting clean matches. They have the goal of zero misses and penalties. It doesn't matter if they shoot a minute long stage as long as it's clean and "they can have fun doing it."

    The third group wants to go fast and be competitive time-wise. This group can be split into sub groups. 1)The ones that finish routinely in the middle of the pack and further down. They have fun competing with each other just as much as everybody else. They also like to look at their time vs top shooter to compare. New shooters are often in this group. 2) "Fast" shooters with a natural ability and understanding of the game. They may routinely practice outside of matches or they may say "I practice at matches". They will usually finish at or near the top regardless of what changes or gotchas you put in your match.

     Keep in mind, I was not at eot and am only speaking in generalities. When you try to "even up the pack" a certain way, you'll inevitably do the opposite. For instance a further target will take everybody longer to hit. It wont take the top tier as much longer as it will the rest of the pack because they practice that. It also makes it more difficult for the second group that just wants a clean match regardless of time. It also separates traditional, duelist, and gunfighter disproportionally. The traditional shooter has 2 hands to steady with so its easier for them. A duelist only has one hand so just a bit harder for them. A shooter shooting gunfighter style only has one hand and also has to switch site pictures more than a duelist so just a bit harder for them than duelist. It goes on and on. I say keep it simple, let everybody have fun!

 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Quite a few points of view are being expressed here. It seems like there are several purposes which EOT is trying to cover, but they aren't necessarily congruent. 

 

On one hand, EOT it is heavily billed as a THE World Championship CAS match, where the world's best shooters compete for the Championship buckles, denoting the single best in the World for their particular category or as overall best in World.  That implies very tough competition, which is going to require a test of the best shooters' abilities to bring things together into a championship performance.  By necessity, the stages have to be fairly complex, in order to separate the shooters.  Consequently less competent shooters will find those stages extremely challenging or even impossible to shoot without misses or Procedural penalties.  But that is what CHAMPIONSHIP is about in any sport.  It is geared to test the very top end. 

 

On the other end here, we are reading from numbers of people feeling very strongly that the EOT match and SASS itself will fail to attract enough market share and will die, if that same World Championship match is not made easy enough for average shooters to enjoy, which means to compete in the match with some success and without disappointment..  

 

The two objectives are not parallel ones.  It is unlikely that the same match can accommodate both sets of goals.  How do you make a match challenging enough to test the world's top shooters, yet easy enough for guys like me to enjoy? 

Simply stated, you don't.  

 

If you feel that the time clock alone can be the arbiter, and the same match will be made competitive by the differential in time that each shooter requires for its completion, then we will quickly see those with the most expensive and tricked out guns beat all the other championship grade shooters. 

So is EOT intended to become a championship gunsmithing contest?  IMHO, I think the speed-arbiter format misses important parts of what CAS is about.   A real lot of CAS shooters expect more than just stage after stage of stand and shoot at close targets for fast times.

 

Not everyone (maybe no one) will agree with me, but just in reading here, I see two very different sets of objectives.  It may be time to re-analyze what we SASS members want to get from EOT.   Perhaps the all-comers-welcome  approach is not very workable.  So perhaps the event should have more than one series of matches, for different levels of shooter competency, and we should have to win preliminary rounds in those matches as the prerequisite to gain access to compete in the final championship match.   That way, everyone can enjoy matches at whatever level of shooter competency they may be at at the time, and the championship match can contain some shooting challenges besides just the time clock.   

Just my $0.25 worth.  

 

 

I’ve never shot the match at EOT but I’m pretty confident that if you did away with the all comers welcome approach EOT would cease to exist. Putting on this match for just a couple of hundred shooters would be very costly and vendors would be hesitant to show up for that low of a draw. Winners win because they practice diligently and are better at what they do than most of us will ever dream of being. I know a participant from my neck of the woods who attends EOT every year and his goal is a clean match, he knows he’ll probably never buckle and doesn’t care. Eliminating those that have no chance of winning or placing would shrink the field immensely and change the entire flavor or atmosphere of the event. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Longest Pistol Shot was UNDER 7 yards

Longest Rifle Shot was 12 yards

 

Closest Pistol Shot was 4 yards

Closest Rifle Shot was 7 yards

 

Pistols 4 to 7 yards.....more closer to 6 than 4

Rifle 7 to 12 yards....more closer to 10 than 7

 

You guys make it sound like a bullseye match when it wasn’t. Do I care for that many cowboy cut-outs? Not really but we’re all shooting the same targets in the same arrays. 

 

My first EOT WAS 2010....I shot the SAME steel this year that I shot then. The Match Directors can only put out what they have.

 

I personally don’t like big and close on every stage. Variety is the key to a good match and this was a damn good match. 

 

Stan

Thank you SFS...so true.  As to cowboy cutout targets, I shoot them locally so no surprise (TenHorns & Bar-3).  They are large in mass but different to the eye to those not used to them.  There was  only one stage that I remember that "made" shooter take angle shots (# five) but as I recall, others gave an option to shoot at less angle IF shooter wanted to move left/right rather than stand directly in middle of stage.  I warned my posse to angle on stage five so they would not charge into window looking straight forward in search of pistol targets.  (one of those cautions to look stage over before shooting and while PM is reading stage scenario. )The lack of hand default/posture and no foot rule was excellent.  More movement was new and put the test to many, especially us over 70, but I liked it.  More +1 on rifle than in the past also added time to stages.  I had a miss that was purely on me, not any angle but within a string on a "in front of me"  dump (yea, cowboy).    Considering the reloads and movement I shot better match than several years so no complaints.

 

T A started a great change to EOT.  We camped near each other and discussed stages then.  He learned what was liked and disliked each year and corrected the next year.  Lassiter was his deputy and absorbed the changes until taking command (and I IMO, with excellence ).   Stan, like you, up close and big is not what I want in a match such as this, I like a little more emphasis on front sights.  Let clubs like Bordertown and a few others make their reputation for their on array of targets and difficulty (Bar-3 chickens...and look out this year for the little turkey).  

 

My vote is that this EOT was outstanding and I don't doubt with be even better next year....and yes, with thanks to TA, under the thumbs up from Misty,  for giving EOT a lift.

 

 

Another thought.....As SFS mentioned, same targets but maybe due to some new fronts and revamping of several stages, a different use was made of existing targets.  I believe we had fewer "mirror" stages this year, not sure, but definitely more movement in new changed fronts, props, etc and additional down range changes.  i just see some of these changes suggested a change in total times to many.  And, yes I agree there was more overall difficulty in the match this year but IMO, not to what some seem to suggest.  Reloads, more shotgun knockdowns, lots of movement produces greater times.

Edited by Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Does the NBA move the three point in closer for the finals? Or lower the basket? Because as of now, all of the major matches move their targets in closer and make them bigger than just about every single local club does. I have no problem with that, but you guys need to stop being hypocrites about it. Just because some people think the world championship should be harder than regular matches doesn't mean you should compare it to a sport when the exact opposite has been going on for years, as in getting bigger and closer the larger the match.

You missed the point. The NBA leaves it the same. my point. For the last 6 or so years the match was big and close and fun for most shooters. The match changed. I wasn't suggesting moving anything closer.  Just would have liked to see EOT  stay with what has worked for so long.

RCD

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

It took three pages before I saw objective data on what defined a target that was too far away for the average shooter to have enough fun to come back next year. 

I'm quite surprised to see that 7 yards for a pistol shot and 12 yards for a rifle shot are being described as "too far out" for a good time. 

 

I'm new to CAS but I am certainly not new to shooting and calling 7 yards for a pistol and 12 yards for a rifle  "long shots" is a subjective description that I simply cannot wrap my head around.   It's even harder to get my head around it when part of the same conversation centers around how "stand and deliver" stages are killing the sport. 

 

It sounds like the beer is too cold, the stack of hundred dollar bills is making peoples wallets too bulky, and the new car smell is distracting people from having a good time.

Edited by Chuck Steak
  • Like 2
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Longest Pistol Shot was UNDER 7 yards

Longest Rifle Shot was 12 yards

 

Closest Pistol Shot was 4 yards

Closest Rifle Shot was 7 yards

 

Pistols 4 to 7 yards.....more closer to 6 than 4

Rifle 7 to 12 yards....more closer to 10 than 7

 

You guys make it sound like a bullseye match when it wasn’t. Do I care for that many cowboy cut-outs? Not really but we’re all shooting the same targets in the same arrays. 

 

My first EOT WAS 2010....I shot the SAME steel this year that I shot then. The Match Directors can only put out what they have.

 

I personally don’t like big and close on every stage. Variety is the key to a good match and this was a damn good match. 

 

Stan

I can't even remember the last time I commented on this forum, but it was when the moderators banned Phantom. Prior to that I spent much of my day on various issues SASS related. 7 top 10 EOT; 6 top 10 WR; MW Regional; CO State; 4 top 10 CaCha all in....all in. This thread, for me, most closely represents the main reason that my time is now spent in other shooting sports.

 

I simply found myself bored to tears w/ targets this stale and SASS having become a weapons handling contest. That's not the truth- that's my opinion.

 

10/10/4 if you move you're the Devil of the Unsafe hisself. Then I jumped out of a tower on a zipline while blasting targets on a 250 yard course; shot rifle on a dead run to a barricade for 100,200,500 yds and loaded 30 shotgun as fast as I could run through the woods. 

 

I sucked. I sucked so bad that it was embarrassing. Plus, at 60+ not only was I running out of time to NOT suck, but I was the oldest competitor out of 300. 

 

So for the last 4 yrs exactly, I have spent that same energy and oodles more time & money (one stage can be 50-60 rifle, 30+ pistol &/or 10-50 shotgun)... mainly to not suck. Because I have absolutely no chance in hell of being even a top 25% unless 50 guys & gals DQ.

 

We all show up for our own reason: mine is to beat my last stage. Mine is to remember not to forget that the smallest mistakes can become huge train wrecks. Mine is to operate complicated weapons systems under stress of performance. Mine is to hit that 500yd target w/o going to war on it & burning time. Mine is to clean the pistol steel at 70 to 10 yards w/ plates, spinners, swingers, KD's & do it w/o too many make ups.

 

There are many things I miss about SASS, most of those "things" have names, they're friends and I don't get to see them as often as I'd like anymore. Of course, now I have more friends that I would miss as well.

 

My point is only that people come and go in all forms of entertainment often for purely personal reasons. IMV the World competition should be a test of all facets of the sport, not just a test of weapons manipulation. Making it the equivalent of a kid's soccer game where we all get to play, all get a trophy and all get to party, drink koolaide & cookies also runs the risk of boring the living daylights out of those who appreciate a mano a mano contest that also involves accuracy of the weapons themselves.

 

That "ding" on a 70 yd pistol steel or flasher on a 500 yd rifle or clay after 15 shotgun is as satisfying as it is frustrating to miss. If you're overwhelmed by the frustration rather than motivated to practice more then no one can help you.

 

The times comparison could have been due as well to movement as anything....because let's face it: if you are bummed out because targets were WAY out there at 6 yds & slammed your trunk in anger because the RIFLE target was 12 or the shotgun was not straight then frankly you just weren't ready for a World/National competition. 

 

We all know there is no target too close to miss; no scenario too simple to shoot a "P"; no gun too well-worked to jam, but to say that these things are the only criteria is a bit short-sighted. You may lose as many or more whose interest in shooting is a bit more of a challenge in other ways.

 

My further observation is that this argument has happened after every. single. SASS. event. ever.

 

My old Jewish mentor was fond of saying, "Those that go see God. The rest have to take their word for it."

 

Congratulations to all who attended. See you next year. 

Brother King

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

And if you think that high-end, tricked out guns are what win championships, you are sorely mistaken. 

You make fair arguments on all points.  I was really only looking for discussion here.  I agree with almost everything in your response.  

 

I will take issue about the benefit of tricked-out guns.  How many of the top shooters shoot factory stock, out-of-the-box guns?  Why?   How many have spent near equivalent to the initial cost of guns or more, on mod. parts and custom Gunsmithing?  Why? 

Could those SAME top shooters get equivalent stage times if required to shoot guns that are not short-stroked (both rifles and pistols) or otherwise modified?

If the answer is that their times would be slower, then the guns are making a difference in their performance.  And in the top ranks, that certainly would affect standing.  

 

So in a match that lacks target array difficulty and thus eliminates most of the risk of making errors (i. e., not requiring much slowing down of hand functions to accommodate needed brain processing).  The guns will, in fact, determine the final standing in the very close time differences among those top-tier shooters.  

 

As far as the championship purpose of the EOT match goes, it can be anything that the attending shooters desire.   Most here seem to be looking for a shootable match for as many as possible.  But it is really hard to design a championship level match to test the best, and still make all comers happy, as attested by all the negative critique of challenging target arrays expressed throughout this thread. 

 

You either can shoot the difficult target layouts successfully and quickly, or you cannot.  Many did.  Those that didn't seem here to think less of  the match design and target arrays.  I'm not sure that problem is real solvable.  

Sincere thanks for your thoughtful response.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I will take issue about the benefit of tricked-out guns.  How many of the top shooters shoot factory stock, out-of-the-box guns?  Why?   How many have spent near equivalent to the initial cost of guns or more, on mod. parts and custom Gunsmithing?  Why? 

Could those SAME top shooters get equivalent stage times if required to shoot guns that are not short-stroked (both rifles and pistols) or otherwise modified?

If the answer is that their times would be slower, then the guns are making a difference in their performance.  And in the top ranks, that certainly would affect standing.  

If you think tricked out guns makes a difference then how do you explain the fact that both Matt Black and Missouri Lefty (when he shoots traditional) can shoot their pistols faster than almost everybody in the game.  Neither one of them shoots short strokes pistols.

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sidekick said:

If you think tricked out guns makes a difference then how do you explain the fact that both Matt Black and Missouri Lefty (when he shoots traditional) can shoot their pistols faster than almost everybody in the game.  Neither one of them shoots short strokes pistols.

Dang Sidekick, you beat me to it! 

 

WK

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.