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doc roy l. pain

EOT stages

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sidekick said:

I have to disagree with you about the stages favoring doubles this year.  I felt like it was a big improvement this year over last year.  I dont have my stage book in front of me but I think there was only one stage where the shotgun was split, the rest of the stages once you started with your shotgun you engaged all the targets.  Movement between shots doesn't favor one style of shotgun over another.

I guess we can agree to disagree. I definitely think being able to load 2 rather than 1 while moving is an an advantage and stages that you move with the shotgun give an advantage to the double. I also don't have the stages in front of me but will name a few. Stage 1, you grab shotgun, move past cactus, shoot 2, move past second cactus, shoot 2. Stage 10, grab shotgun on one table, move to other table, shoot 2, move around prop going forward to shoot 4 more. Also, the stage with shooting shotgun at 3 different positions. I think they should have a couple stages with an odd number of shotgun targets which would favor the 97. Just my opinion of course. 

Edited by Chicken George*
Meant to say, I think they should have had a couple stages with an odd number of shotgun targets to even it up...
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3 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

I guess we can agree to disagree. I definitely think being able to load 2 rather than 1 while moving is an an advantage and stages that you move with the shotgun give an advantage to the double. I also don't have the stages in front of me but will name a few. Stage 1, you grab shotgun, move past cactus, shoot 2, move past second cactus, shoot 2. Stage 10, grab shotgun on one table, move to other table, shoot 2, move around prop going forward to shoot 4 more. Also, the stage with shooting shotgun at 3 different positions. I think they should have a couple stages with an odd number of shotgun targets which would favor the 97. Just my opinion of course. 

Ok stage 1 it was only 1 maybe 2 steps that you had to take there wasn't enough distance for a double shooter to have shells in the gun but a 97 shooter could have a shell in the gun.  Stage 10 you could shoot all 6 targets without moving so that actually favors a 97

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31 minutes ago, Sidekick said:

I will say that while it wasn't the match I was expecting I like this years setup better than I did last years.  I will be back next year it doesn't matter to me how the targets are set up.

It was my first EOT and I had a blast. I was told to aim... I was conservative in my stage approach and thought long and hard about staging and transitions. I’m not able to run and gun and shoot Gunfighter and be clean... so I was going for SMOOTH.  I had three misses and all y’all That know me ought to be impressed!  If I had shot those three shots according to my PLAN, I could have been clean. 

 

I expected a challenging match and got it. It was the most challenging match (for a lot of reasons - World Championships AND vending being two of them) that I’ve shot and I’m pleased!  I’m like Sidekick and will shoot whatever it is - because we are all shooting the same targets... and it’s fun to spend all that time with my friends!

 

Thanks and congrats to everyone!  It was FUN!  I met a whole bunch of new friends! Personally, I found the dust far more annoying than ANY THING ... 

 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

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Hi Folks,

 

As I wasn't there, I can only comment on a few general things; but, I think they are important..

1. I'm not good at judging distance by feet or yards beyond what is used in sewing. ;) So, I'd have to see it. As I'm not fast, I do enjoy being clean. Personally, I don't mind far SG or rifle targets as much as pistol.

2. Target angles are of extreme importance as people can be hurt by splatter. :(

3. I read the first four of the scenarios and they seemed straight forward to me, unless the PM gave additional instructions that made them confusing or were contradictory.

4. Every match, State and above, should have feedback forms. It should be required in their contracts. Every shooter, should make an effort to fill them out with either positive or negative comments. Both are important in future planning.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Posted (edited)

Regarding splatter - I was not hit by any at this match and only saw one of my posse members hit by splatter in three days.  That was from a shotgun target that was shot straight on with a gold, STS Nitro Sporting Clays factory shell.  :( 

 

Regarding dust: those who live in moist climates may not appreciate how dusty the Desert Southwest can be.  This was the least dusty EOT I've shot.  There were wildflowers blooming all over the ranch that normally don't appear until the summer rains begin in July.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
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I want to echo Phantom.

Not one word of my opinion was intended to demean or insult anyone involved in this match.

I respect, admire and am impressed by the level of time and commitment that goes into putting on a match of this magnitude.

 

EOT is End of Trail.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the most challenging.

Others will happily take on that mantle.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the biggest, closest, fastest.

Others will happily take on that mantle.

 

The EOT mission should be to be the shoot that all others look to, to emulate in the perfection and execution of the details.

 

Perhaps, if I had any interest in bands, dancing or whiskey tastings - the main match would be a smaller component of my experience.

 

And for any other match; it would have been a perfectly passable match.

 

But I didn't come to shoot a perfectly passable match; I can do that anytime, nearly anywhere.

 

I came to shoot the Grand Daddy of them all.

I came to shoot End of Trail.

I expected better.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

  Maybe they need to have a new name for World Championships  stop giving out Buckles and large trophies to the Best  and just give everyone a participation  award. :FlagAm:

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First of all, the targets aside, the match ran VERY smooth

 

Second, with the targets a bit further out, it kinna levels the playing field for 1 handed shooters versus 2 handed shooters that takes away the super fast "thumbing'  exercise.

Overall, I rate it a 95, not the easiest to dance to, but s good rythm.

 

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18 minutes ago, SouthwestShooter said:

First of all, the targets aside, the match ran VERY smooth

 

Second, with the targets a bit further out, it kinna levels the playing field for 1 handed shooters versus 2 handed shooters that takes away the super fast "thumbing'  exercise.

Overall, I rate it a 95, not the easiest to dance to, but s good rythm.

 

I wasn't there so I don't feel I can add to much at all. I shoot duelist, and like close targets too. I think the setup that more levels the playing field is more pistol targets instead of multi-taps. Then again, if I thought the playing field needed to be leveled, I may not shoot duelist. I'm fast enough to catch you if you mess up, and slow enough to make you look bad if I do. Hahahahaha

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4 hours ago, Chicken George* said:

I think they should have a couple stages with an odd number of shotgun targets which would favor the 97. 

Is the intent to "favor" any group of shooters? 

I don't see how shooting pairs from one position favors anybody.  If 8 targets were shot from one position, would you say if favored doubles? How so? 

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1 hour ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

  Maybe they need to have a new name for World Championships  stop giving out Buckles and large trophies to the Best  and just give everyone a participation  award. :FlagAm:

Can you be constructive... Just once?

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1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Is the intent to "favor" any group of shooters? 

I don't see how shooting pairs from one position favors anybody.  If 8 targets were shot from one position, would you say if favored doubles? How so? 

I don't get that either.  I also don't get the idea that farther pistol targets favor Duelists as Southwest Shooter said.  I can see why double taps and so forth put them at a disadvantage relative to a two handed shooter, but farther targets impact everyone equally in my view.

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Posted (edited)

I couldn't make it, but from the read and some feedback from friends, its sounds like I would have liked the match. I'm pleased to hear that the match had a bit of challenge to it. Like has been said, the event needs to be good to keep up the draw. I have found nothing else in this area of any interest to me.

Snakebite

Edited by Snakebite

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I have been shooting a little over two years.  This was my first EOT.  I am from Iowa where our stages are fast.  Close big targets.   I did terrible because I didn't adjust.  That is on me not the design of the match.  If I would have slowed down and paid attention to my front sight, I would have done much better.   I never expected to win, but I had real expectations of a top 75.  It was all my fault nobody else's.  I didn't adjust.   Having said that, I had a wonderful time.  1000 mile trip, so maybe not an every year thing, but I will be back and hell will be coming with me.

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3 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Is the intent to "favor" any group of shooters? 

I don't see how shooting pairs from one position favors anybody.  If 8 targets were shot from one position, would you say if favored doubles? How so? 

I would prefer that matches didn't favor any gun or shooting style. I thought this match favored doubles and was only suggesting a way to mix it up to make it more even. I do not think shooting pairs from one position favors anybody nor if 8 were shot from one position. 

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I didn't make it to the match, but in looking at the stage descriptions, it looks - - - - - well---FUN.  That would make it worth the drive to me next year, as a first timer.   

 

I like a mix--some stages with character/challenge,  some easier with a chance to heat up some steel.  For me, the variety makes it enjoyable and helps relieve the mental stress of competing.   

 

For every critic there will be someone else who loves a particular stage.  If everyone liked the same things, stage design would be quick and easy.  But that just isn't the world we live in.   Looking at these stages, it is evident that folks put in a huge effort, and deserve everyones' thanks.  Wish I could have shot the match. 

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

 Well said . :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I didn't make it to the match, but in looking at the stage descriptions, it looks - - - - - well---FUN.  That would make it worth the drive to me next year, as a first timer.   

 

I like a mix--some stages with character/challenge,  some easier with a chance to heat up some steel.  For me, the variety makes it enjoyable and helps relieve the mental stress of competing.   

 

For every critic there will be someone else who loves a particular stage.  If everyone liked the same things, stage design would be quick and easy.  But that just isn't the world we live in.   Looking at these stages, it is evident that folks put in a huge effort, and deserve everyones' thanks.  Wish I could have shot the match. 

You can't make judgements based on the paper... You can't possibly discuss the issues that are being debated.

 

The stages were great. Target placement was a bit off in my opinion.

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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53 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You can't make judgements based on the paper... You can't possibly discuss the issues that are being debated.

 No disagreement there.  I just thought the written stages looked fun.  Hopefully that is OK. 

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50 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You can't make judgements based on the paper... You can't possibly discuss the issues that are being debated.

 

The stages were great. Target placement was a bit off in my opinion.

Correct, making a judgement based on what's on paper and not actually seeing the stages is not right. You can get an idea, but...

On discussing the issues... Um, I think anyone can discuss; we can't exclude.

And on the shotgun targets, if you place them all close together or in close pairs, I believe the double guys do have an advantage.

They key for me in stage writing, is variety. Mix it up. Spread the targets out one stage, bunch em up the next.

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10 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Correct, making a judgement based on what's on paper and not actually seeing the stages is not right. You can get an idea, but...

On discussing the issues... Um, I think anyone can discuss; we can't exclude.

And on the shotgun targets, if you place them all close together or in close pairs, I believe the double guys do have an advantage.

They key for me in stage writing, is variety. Mix it up. Spread the targets out one stage, bunch em up the next.

Yer right.

 

My statement wasn't clear. Everyone can comment... I'm not some ruler of what can and cannot be said. The two biggest points regarding the stages were distances and angles. Neither can be seen on paper.

 

Phantom

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Distance is a matter of preference, but many stages we were shooting from the left or right of the stages at targets that were placed in the middle of the stage.  We were basically shooting  at 45 degree degree angles.   Personally, I did not like that stage design.  

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The two biggest points regarding the stages were distances and angles. Neither can be seen on paper.

Wasnt the OP about the " EOT Stages", not necessarily just the following limited discussion of target placements?   So I looked at the written stages.  Obviously, absent seeing the target arrays on the ground, how could anybody comment about that part, so I carefully avoided that part. 

 

 AlI I really said was that the stages looked fun TO ME.  I wasn't looking for a concensus vote and obviously didn't get one.  Good 'nuff.   

 

But I will say that it looks like some of the best shooters handled all of  the challenges fairly effectively.  Matt Black and the others at the top rankings are hellacious good shooters - - World Champions, in fact.  Kudos to them! 

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12 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Wasnt the OP about the " EOT Stages", not necessarily just the following limited discussion of target placements?   So I looked at the written stages.  Obviously, absent seeing the target arrays on the ground, how could anybody comment about that part, so I carefully avoided that part. 

 

 AlI I really said was that the stages looked fun TO ME.  I wasn't looking for a concensus vote and obviously didn't get one.  Good 'nuff.   

 

But I will say that it looks like some of the best shooters handled all of  the challenges fairly effectively.  Matt Black and the others at the top rankings are hellacious good shooters - - World Champions, in fact.  Kudos to them! 

When I write stages, I really don't worry about making the top shooters happy... They don't pay the bills.

 

Glad you liked the paper version of the match.

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

When I write stages, I really don't worry about making the top shooters happy... They don't pay the bills.

 

Glad you liked the paper version of the match.

 

Phantom

I think the top shooters pretty much can handle whatever comes.  I've written stages trying to "even the playing field" with further, and more complex, or moving targets.  The same guys and gals always seem to end up at the top, regardless.   I wish I had their ability and mental state. 

 

Unfortunately, the paper version is all I have to look at.  That and a few videos published so far.  It does look to me like a very fun match.  Wish I could have been there.  

 

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You can write stages favoring a particular facet of shooting (i.e. pairs of shotgun targets for dbl shooters or right movement vs left movement) but you will most likely never skew the overall results; winners are winners because they have a talent and they practice. Sure Matt Black is young and has a natural talent for shooting, but I would bet he spends HOURS upon hours dry firing and live firing to be where he is. All writing stages to even the playing field (slow down the speed burners) does is add a little to their times and frustrate people.

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6 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think the top shooters pretty much can handle whatever comes.  I've written stages trying to "even the playing field" with further, and more complex, or moving targets.  The same guys and gals always seem to end up at the top, regardless.   I wish I had their ability and mental state. 

 

This, in my opinion, is the best, fastest way to kill a cowboy shooting club that has 15 to 20 shooters. As far as the EOT target placement you just had to be there to understand some of the comments about how some were set up.  

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8 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think the top shooters pretty much can handle whatever comes.  I've written stages trying to "even the playing field" with further, and more complex, or moving targets.  The same guys and gals always seem to end up at the top, regardless.   I wish I had their ability and mental state. 

 

Unfortunately, the paper version is all I have to look at.  That and a few videos published so far.  It does look to me like a very fun match.  Wish I could have been there.  

 

 

You are correct in saying that the top shooters will handle whatever comes and still finish on top.

 

However- trying to "even the playing field" doesn't even up anything.  It simply makes it harder for the lower end of the pack.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Purly SASS # 57438 said:

This, in my opinion, is the best, fastest way to kill a cowboy shooting club that has 15 to 20 shooters. As far as the EOT target placement you just had to be there to understand some of the comments about how some were set up.  

 

I agree Purly.

Stage writers and those who work hard to set up the stages (even at local clubs) should try to make

stages good for every shooter as much as possible.

Never try to interject a scenario to slow down the fast shooters with the intent of thinking you are helping

a slow shooter........bad thinking.

Try to keep target distances, spacing, etc... in a manner where folks can shoot at their "Optimum Performance"

levels with a high % of hits for ALL types of shooters.

 

And always try to consider the BP Pards.   When possible, allow choices of Right to Left or Left to Right

discretion for BP shooters.   What's good for them will also be good for EVERYONE.

 

One other thing:  I may be missing something, but I just don't see where any type of SG has an

advantage over another style except for the Pard that is shooting it.

Whether it be a pair of targets sitting together or a group of them staggered across the stage,

I just don't see how some folks determine that a SxS has an advantage.

What makes some folks think a SxS has the advantage is because most of our Champions shoot one

with unbelievable speeds with nearly 100% proficiency.

But you will be hard pressed for even some of the best SxS shooters  like Lefty, Matt, Deuce, etc.....

to have the SG advantage over some of the best 87 and 97 shooters like Slater and Lassiter(87) and Red Knee, Hells Comin, Missouri Traveler, Santa Fe River Stan, etc... (97).

And you got folks like SmokeStack and Deuce who are super fast with any type SG.

 

Just my .02

 

..........Widder

 

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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26 minutes ago, Two Spurs said:

However- trying to "even the playing field" doesn't even up anything.  It simply makes it harder for the lower end of the pack.

You did a better job of saying what I was trying to say.  Thx. 

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25 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:
2 hours ago, Purly SASS # 57438 said:

This, in my opinion, is the best, fastest way to kill a cowboy shooting club that has 15 to 20 shooters. 

 

2 hours ago, Purly SASS # 57438 said:

This, in my opinion, is the best, fastest way to kill a cowboy shooting club that has 15 to 20 shooters. 

I'm not in disagreement, if target difficulty is carried to extreme.  But my experience (albeit limited to 4 yrs) is that almost all of our shooters enjoy CAS shooting variety, including some challenging stages.  If you provide variety, all of them seem to have fun at our monthly matches. 

 

Several of our  local clubs have been growing slightly, of late.  Variety is the thing that they seem to have in common.  Almost all of the members tell us they like variety in stage design/difficulty. 

When new-- or seasoned--people take a turn as Match Director, you can predict that almost every one of them will design creative stages, including some difficult ones.  So shooter interest doesn't appear to be focused only on speed.  They all cheer each other every time a shooter hits a very difficult rifle or pistol target--often scored as bonuses.  If you ask them their favorite stages, almost to the person they will tell you they liked shooting from the moving, bumpy ore cart, or shooting the cable-driven charging Buffalo, or shooting at the 3" rifle target at 15 yds.  And everyone seems to like taking a pop at clay birds--and being cheered when they hit one.    The best shooters do the best at all of those targets--difficulty doesn't seem to matter.    

 

Other clubs throughout Central and Northern California also seem to have the same kind of appreciation for shooting variety.  The shooters, in general (the majority who pay the bills), appear to like creative and new targets.  They get their speed practice individually, and it shows on every kind of target that they shoot.  

If your club can stay focused on western themed fun, it seems likely to survive and succeed. 

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Howdy all,

 

This was my first EOT (been very actively shooting in the midwest since 2003) and I have written a couple stages here and there.

My observations:

1. The ranch looked fantastic and was laid out very well

2. Rifle Targets were very well placed to run at high speed with a slight level of caution

3. Shotgun targets were completely manageable, were split well in places for variety (I shoot a 97), options were great for shotgun

4. Pistol targets provided the thrill of Front sight vs. speed control that made this match fantastic. 

5. Scenarios left you with plenty of options on several stages to set your personal preference for start to finish and to customize your transitions to taste

6. Props were really cool

7. Moving targets- this was a very brave move by the Match Directors and I think this was a super addition to a large match and was very exciting

8. I personally did not see any angle issues with targets, no one on my posse took any lead, possibly this could be an issue with the choices made to not take a step or two to line up in front of the target, and that's fine, shoot it like you like, but I seen not issue.

9. I love a huge verity of match styles, that's what makes this game so much fun, it's different everywhere you go.

      Big close

      Far small

      Big far

      Small close

      Several targets

      Few targets

      on and on with all the stage options, it should be a verity and I think this match had that.

10. The events ran on time and looked smooth

11.  The choices in events was very good

12. Vendors were actually very nice, I wasn't sure what to expect, so I was very pleased with the choices

13. Camping on the range was lots of fun and the camp grounds while lacking midwest grass :) were good

14. Food vendors and banquet food was good

15. Prizes and awards were very nice

16. timing of everything was great

17. Man on man event was really great to watch, very exciting

 

Matches and how they are written is a completely subjective thing. Like soup, 

It's to hot

It's just right

It needs salt

It needs pepper

It needs this spice or that spice

They gave me to much

They gave me to little

I like XXXX soup better then XXXXX soup

 

With 550 shooters, I know for a fact that it's not possible to have 550 people happy. But in total in my opinion, this was a very well run, exciting, interesting, great time. (read-I believe I got my monies worth with change.)

 

I would like to say thanks to Misty Moonshine, Lassiter, Deuce Stevens, Cowboy Carty and all the other folks that helped to put this event together.

I know that at times it is a thankless job, and you all do it for the love of doing it, so I thank you.

 

For those that found exception to aspects of this shoot, again, soup aint always the soup we love, doesn't mean it's bad, just not your favorite.

While I haven't shot everywhere, I have been out to several states and matches of all sizes and flavors, one of my big take-a-ways is always that

Really it's rare to have truly bad soup.

 

As for this being the World Championship, I think I would have loved this match however it was served, but I don't remember ever attending a match anywhere that I really didn't like.

 

If anyone is worried about attendance to EOT or any shoot for that matter, please help that situation by finding all the great things about the match in your opinion and promote that ! The glass must be half full for any business or event to succeed. Therefore, do the cowboy way, and fully support EOT.

 

THANK YOU AGAIN TO EVERYONE INVOLVED WITH THIS EVENT, IT WAS GREAT, I'LL BE BACK AND I ALREADY HAVE SOME NEW PEOPLE I'M WORKING ON TO COME NEXT YEAR !!!!!

 

 

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4 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

One other thing:  I may be missing something, but I just don't see where any type of SG has an

advantage over another style except for the Pard that is shooting it.

Whether it be a pair of targets sitting together or a group of them staggered across the stage,

I just don't see how some folks determine that a SxS has an advantage.

..........Widder

 

 

Widder, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't see how SG targets in closely spaced twos is not an advantage for dbl shooters.

And as a thought, try odd numbers of SG targets and you'll get some feedback.

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On 6/25/2019 at 7:46 AM, Dodge City Dixie said:

In agreement with Phantom and Creeker.

 

Championships-

  • Does the NFL extend the football field, narrow width of goal posts or make other changes for the Super Bowl?
  • Does the NBA extend the basketball court, raise goal height/reduce size or otherwise make changes for championship games?
  • Does the MLB increase distance between bases, extend the playing field or make other changes for the World Series?

The challenge of CAS is many faceted.  The World Championship is already a challenge in that you must keep your equipment, ammo and yourself performing for 3 days/12 stages.  Some good luck doesn’t hurt as well.  Increasing the difficulty by more distant/angled target placement would seem unnecessary. 

 

There were some harsh comments made regarding the lack of opportunity to shoot a clean match.  This is an important goal for some shooters.

 

We are not professionals, nor are we competing for expensive prizes.  Most are “weekend warriors” who love to shoot in competition with no qualifying requirements, but most of all to have FUN.  If shooters are not having fun a certain percentage will go elsewhere to spend their time and money.  

 

We ALL want SASS and EOT to not just exist, but grow so more can enjoy the fun and camaraderie of old and new friends.

I don't have a dog in this fight, as I'll shoot any match with any setup and leave with a smile on my face and a score near the middle/bottom. But your analogy is not a good one. For one, those other sports play every game every where on the same size field (save baseball outfields) with the same rules. That's not even close to the case in SASS where even locally you might find three different types of matches with distances all over the map. And second, the big matches already do make a change in their championships by bringing targets in even closer than what most locals do. One year, at the California state match, I almost got a SDQ for moving with cocked pistols when every instinct of mine wanted to take a step back from the closest targets I had ever seen in any match. They were brought in purposefully for that match. It's my understanding that's what most big annuals and championship matches do. Nothing wrong with that at all if that's what the customer base wants. But let's not pretend that they don't change the game for the championship matches already.

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