EOT stages

[Dusty Devil Dale]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Skill, consistency and a little luck every now and then is what separates them, not what they're shooting, regardless of stage design.

Nobody will argue their skill and practice is evident and important.  But if you take the short-stroked rifle and pistols away from just one or two of them, what do you think happens to the final ranking? 

That was my only point. 

Why else would anyone expend equivalent to the original gun cost on custom mods? 

 

Easier stages are going to cluster more shooters up into that top tier, where gunsmithing does, in fact, make a difference.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

13 minutes ago, Sidekick said:

Neither one of them shoots short strokes pistols.

What about short-stroked rifles? 

 

And to a shooter who mostly slip- hammers, a short-stroke pistol really doesn't make a huge difference.   They do make a big difference for gunfighters, duelist, etc. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

4 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

What about short-stroked rifles? 

 

And to a shooter who mostly slip- hammers, a short-stroke pistol really doesn't make a huge difference.   They do make a big difference for gunfighters, duelist, etc. 

 

Howdy Devil Dale.

Short stroked pistols can make a big difference in the performance of a GF, but its not always a positive result.... 

 

I enjoy my Short Stroked Rugers with lower hammers.   They sure help me as a GF because of my small hands.

But the draw back is I sometimes have the hammers cocked and pull the trigger BEFORE I've actually

acquired a good site alignment on the target.   In those instances, I could have hesitated a little longer

to hit the target......... but that same hesitation would have also allowed me time to function a Non-SS pistol.

So in some respects, its a wash.

 

By the way, on the SASS Cowboy World Record Speed page, the Traditional record by Deuce and the GF record 

were established using NON-SS Ruger pistols, with factory style regular hammers (no lower hammers).

And no light springs were used.   The hammers had to fall fast in order for the shooter to achieve those

speed times.    Something to think about.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[Sidekick]

8 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

What about short-stroked rifles? 

 

And to a shooter who mostly slip- hammers, a short-stroke pistol really doesn't make a huge difference.   They do make a big difference for gunfighters, duelist, etc. 

Considering that 90% of the toggle link rifles that were shot at EOT, and that might be a low estimate are short stroked so I dont see the advantage.  According to your logic all Lefty needs to do is start shooting short stroked pistols and he will win the overall next year.  Anyone that knows what it takes to compete at the top of this sport will tell you that that has nothing to do with it.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

10 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

. . .

On one hand, EOT it is heavily billed as a THE World Championship CAS match, where the world's best shooters compete for the Championship buckles, denoting the single best in the World for their particular category or as overall best in World.  That implies very tough competition, which is going to require a test of the best shooters' abilities to bring things together into a championship performance.  By necessity, the stages have to be fairly complex, in order to separate the shooters.  Consequently less competent shooters will find those stages extremely challenging or even impossible to shoot without misses or Procedural penalties.  But that is what CHAMPIONSHIP is about in any sport.  It is geared to test the very top end. 

. . .

 

No. 

 

An invalid assumption as has been pointed out.

 

They don't change the field for football championships.  Nor the court or goal for basketball, nor the field for baseball, etc.

 

The challenge is the PLAYERS/tems.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

3 minutes ago, Sidekick said:

Anyone that knows what it takes to compete at the top of this sport will tell you that that has nothing to do with it.

If you want to argue that short- stroking a rifle doesn't speed up shooting, that's up to you.   But there's a reason why all those shooters you mentioned have spent the money and effort to SS.  

 

But I do get your point that if everyone has the same equipment, the benefit becomes a wash.  I need to mull that over a bit.   

But the different generation SS kits for rifles do have a sizable $ differential.   I really don't know what % of shooters uses which Gen kit, and who they are.  I suspect the better ranking shooters have expended more to get guns in competitive shape.  Could be wrong there.  Maybe they just have their guns practice-polished. 

 

Good discussion, regardless. 

  Thanks. 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

4 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

No. 

 

An invalid assumption as has been pointed out.

 

They don't change the field for football championships.  Nor the court or goal for basketball, nor the field for baseball, etc.

 

The challenge is the PLAYERS/tems.

Oh for the love of Christ and all things holy, please stop using that analogy. It doesn't work with SASS. If you play a football game in LA or New England, the field is identical. If I shoot in California it won't be the same as in Ohio. Every club does it differently. A better analogy I believe (not certain as I don't play) would be golf. Every course is different and some are harder. I think the championship matches are the hardest. I am not saying that is where SASS should go. I am just saying the analogy being used is dead wrong and want people to stop using it.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Maybe they just have their guns practice-polished. 

 

Good discussion, regardless. 

  Thanks. 

 

I like that terminology..... 'Practiced Polished' 

 

My 97's are Practiced Polished.   And sometimes, they get Practiced Broken..... 

 

..........Widder

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

4 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Oh for the love of Christ and all things holy, please stop using that analogy. It doesn't work with SASS. If you play a football game in LA or New England, the field is identical. If I shoot in California it won't be the same as in Ohio. Every club does it differently. A better analogy I believe (not certain as I don't play) would be golf. Every course is different and some are harder. I think the championship matches are the hardest. I am not saying that is where SASS should go. I am just saying the analogy being used is dead wrong and want people to stop using it.

 

Sorry if you don't like a valid comparison,

 

Even or especially when it goes against your assumption.

 

And God does love you. 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Just now, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

Sorry if you don't like a valid comparison,

 

Even or especially when it goes against your assumption.

 

And God does love you. 

Valid? In the words of the great Inigo Montoya "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Thus proving my point.

[Yul Lose]

1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

If you want to argue that short- stroking a rifle doesn't speed up shooting, that's up to you.   But there's a reason why all those shooters you mentioned have spent the money and effort to SS.  

 

But I do get your point that if everyone has the same equipment, the benefit becomes a wash.  I need to mull that over a bit.   

But the different generation SS kits for rifles do have a sizable $ differential.   I really don't know what % of shooters uses which Gen kit, and who they are.  I suspect the better ranking shooters have expended more to get guns in competitive shape.  Could be wrong there.  Maybe they just have their guns practice-polished. 

 

Good discussion, regardless. 

  Thanks. 

So is your criticism of the equipment being used and the gunsmithing that’s been done to them? If I were wanting to become a champion or even better at what I do I’d want to use the best equipment there is to aid me in my game. Take a look at Deuce Stevens video of him running a Miruko Winchester 1873 right out of the box and tell me that most of what he did wasn’t ability. 99% of us wouldn’t have been able to come close to running it like that. If you ever get the chance to posse up with Matt Black do so because that young man is an absolute blur compared to you or me. At the Western Regional a few years ago I watched him stumble and almost end up on the ground on a stage with a lot of down range movement and he still shot it in 16 seconds. Every category champion at EOT is champion because of their hard work, drive and ability, slicked up guns have very little to do with it, IMHO, of course.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

First off, all y'all are pretty. 

 

2 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

A better analogy I believe (not certain as I don't play) would be golf. Every course is different and some are harder. I think the championship matches are the hardest. 

 

I don't think this is a good analogy, either, as it points out what I hear folks saying throughout this thread.

 

For everyone who will compete in the Masters next year, they know what to expect as Augusta National doesn't traditionally make drastic changes to the course each year. They may play with pin placement, and will play with the tee box a bit, maybe add a tree or two, but, for the most part, competitors know what to expect when they show up to play the Masters.

 

That is part of the interesting problem that this game has.

 

For the past several years, the match directors of EOT have played within the same basic recipe. While the stages may have changed a bit from year to year, the recipe of target placement and stage design was, from what folks have said, consistent.

 

Folks got to know that recipe and many found it to be a recipe that works, that people enjoyed shooting (for one reason or another). They became comfortable with that recipe and kind of expected it not to change because they thought it was so good.

 

When things are 'different', whether that change is good, bad, or indifferent, it is noticed because it is 'different.'

 

If enough folks like what changed, a good match director will work to ensure that change is incorporated into the new recipe that they will serve up next year. If not, well, not every cake comes out the way we wanted it to. But, we don't stop baking just because one cake fell flat.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Top shooters will ALWAYS beat the non-top shooters, no matter what they use.

Do tricked guns (no specifically short-stroked) make a difference to top shooters? Absolutely, never inferred that they didn't.

But that is no where near why they are top shooters in the first place; they are merely attempting to squeeze those last few milliseconds from their times.

 

And folks are always going to complain about stages... ALWAYS. Most likely because THEY didn't perform well on them.

Different people like different things, we've heard that here. Ya can't always (hardly ever) make everyone happy.

Yes, the challenge is to make a challenging (not easy and boring) match for competitive shooters while still being entertaining and not too difficult for the rest of the pack. I believe we have the right people in SASS to do this. As far as what's been said (I wasn't there) things were a bit different this year over the past few years. I know those involved in producing the match are listening and will take the feedback to heart and make next year's match better for all.

 

EoT match officials... I salute you.

[Bucky Buckskin]

Sass is a sport that really looks at it members and gives them so many options so they can pick a category that fits there shooting style or age to help even out the physical movement  part of the game. All I get from this conversation is some people don’t like change in the stage writing or target placement. At the end of the day all shooters shot the same coarse. I hope and I would guess the great folks at sass who put this shoot together wanted to make it enjoyable for everyone  shoot and would not have changed things that would upset the majority of shooters.

[evil dogooder]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

What about short-stroked rifles? 

 

And to a shooter who mostly slip- hammers, a short-stroke pistol really doesn't make a huge difference.   They do make a big difference for gunfighters, duelist, etc. 

 Every time I see that I have to laugh.   While I'm not a top tier shooter, i am better than an average gf.  Short stoke is a personal  thing.  My shooting is slower with them. 8 know of a few other better shooters who agree

[BootStrap Phil]

18 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Yes. Exactly. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. People should just be saying that. But a couple of people now have tried to compare SASS to other sports and it's not even apples to oranges, but rather apples to corned beef hash. It's beyond disingenuous to try to claim that SASS shouldn't be making the championships harder because other sports don't, when in fact SASS is making the championships easier. For what it's worth, I have my personal preferences, but I will more than happily go along with whatever is best for SASS and keeps the game going long into my retirement. I selfishly want my turn to get the RV and go to every big match across the country.

I'm with that selfish motive! Looking for my RV time as well! 

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 hours ago, Chuck Steak said:

It took three pages before I saw objective data on what defined a target that was too far away for the average shooter to have enough fun to come back next year. 

I'm quite surprised to see that 7 yards for a pistol shot and 12 yards for a rifle shot are being described as "too far out" for a good time. 

 

I'm new to CAS but I am certainly not new to shooting and calling 7 yards for a pistol and 12 yards for a rifle  "long shots" is a subjective description that I simply cannot wrap my head around.   It's even harder to get my head around it when part of the same conversation centers around how "stand and deliver" stages are killing the sport. 

 

It sounds like the beer is too cold, the stack of hundred dollar bills is making peoples wallets too bulky, and the new car smell is distracting people from having a good time.

I think you have to account for both the size and shape of the target as well as the angle being shot from.

 

Shooting an 18 by 12 target square on at 7 yards is very different from shooting a smaller irregularly shaped target at a 30 degree angle from 7 yards.

[evil dogooder]

58 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

No. 

 

An invalid assumption as has been pointed out.

 

They don't change the field for football championships.  Nor the court or goal for basketball, nor the field for baseball, etc.

 

The challenge is the PLAYERS/tems.

  They didn't change the field everybody shot the exact same stages.  That's like saying for the world series they should bring the fence up to 200 ft so everybody can hit one over

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

2 hours ago, Sidekick said:

If you think tricked out guns makes a difference then how do you explain the fact that both Matt Black and Missouri Lefty (when he shoots traditional) can shoot their pistols faster than almost everybody in the game.  Neither one of them shoots short strokes pistols.

It's been pointed out many times that short stroked revolvers for two handed shooters don't help much at all. SS rifles help with consistency of times over an entire match. A single run with a non SS rifle may be as fast, but you are more likely to have a little hitch here and there over the course of a match. 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

First off, all y'all are pretty. 

 

 

I don't think this is a good analogy, either, as it points out what I hear folks saying throughout this thread.

 

For everyone who will compete in the Masters next year, they know what to expect as Augusta National doesn't traditionally make drastic changes to the course each year. They may play with pin placement, and will play with the tee box a bit, maybe add a tree or two, but, for the most part, competitors know what to expect when they show up to play the Masters.

 

That is part of the interesting problem that this game has.

 

For the past several years, the match directors of EOT have played within the same basic recipe. While the stages may have changed a bit from year to year, the recipe of target placement and stage design was, from what folks have said, consistent.

 

Folks got to know that recipe and many found it to be a recipe that works, that people enjoyed shooting (for one reason or another). They became comfortable with that recipe and kind of expected it not to change because they thought it was so good.

 

When things are 'different', whether that change is good, bad, or indifferent, it is noticed because it is 'different.'

 

If enough folks like what changed, a good match director will work to ensure that change is incorporated into the new recipe that they will serve up next year. If not, well, not every cake comes out the way we wanted it to. But, we don't stop baking just because one cake fell flat.

Well I did say that I don't know that much about golf, so you got me there.

[Krazy Kajun]

3 hours ago, Sidekick said:

If you think tricked out guns makes a difference then how do you explain the fact that both Matt Black and Missouri Lefty (when he shoots traditional) can shoot their pistols faster than almost everybody in the game.  Neither one of them shoots short strokes pistols.

Well maybe if they did some of the rest of us mere mortals would have more of a chance!

 

Kajun

[BootStrap Phil]

Well my humble opinion; lot of talk of tricked out guns and such, but would have to agree with a lot of the comments that does not give that much of an edge.

 

Would say that the difference between top shooters and the not is they put in the dedication, time, commitment to get there! (this might have been said earlier, so if repetitive my bad). Kuddos to all you dedicated folks mad respect! I shot frequently with a Cowboy that runs a Marlin 1894 (full stroke) faster than 98% of the tricked out 73's why cause he trains and practices and worked to get there! Smokes me and everyone week after week and enjoy watching him do so, now if I actually used the black plates I put up in my garage dry firing and such maybe I could make him look in the rear view mirror, but I choose not to. Some would say they’re too busy but being honest with myself just lazy and choose to do other things with my time. So right back to the mad respect for these folks training to the World class level! Hats off to you all!

 

Training, Training, Training

 

[evil dogooder]

2 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

Sorry if you don't like a valid comparison,

 

Even or especially when it goes against your assumption.

 

And God does love you. 

I have a lot of respect for you marauder but his point is dead on.  If everyone shot the same targets at the same distance with the same layout in every club in the world, then at eot they suddenly pushed it back a few yards your analogy would be correct.   But they don't.   Each club is different.  For some clubs those targets are big and close. Others they are small and far.  

  Just because people assumed  that eot was going to be a big and close match doesn't  mean that the goal line was pushed farther back.  They didn't say it was going to be 5 feet away and then suddenly switch.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

First and foremost - we are not basketball, football or golf.

Our courses vary with every match and every stage.

A better analogy for our game, instead of sports, would be food - if I go to a steakhouse - I expect steak.

Different cuts of steak/ different spices/ different preparations are available - but its all steak.

 

Or if I go to a pizza joint - I want pizza.

A zillion variations in pizza, but its all pizza.

 

But what I don't expect in either is sushi - now maybe the sushi is fantastic - the best sushi in the world.

But if I don't want or have any interest in sushi - I wont be happy.

And lastly; as for the little bit of something for everybody theory - that's called a buffet - and honestly no one prefers a buffet over their favorite food.

 

Now back to the original thought...

I think everyone has gotten WAY off track with what has been said.

NO ONE said EOT was a bad match.  It WAS not.  

We said, in our HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS, that we believe there are things that could have been done (should have been done) so it could have been better.

 

The pistol targets were NOT too far out.

They were further out than I expected them to be; based on input from previous years.

It wasn't BAD - it just, IMO, could have been better.  (I expected steak {not going to say I got sushi} but I got a burger - delicious; but not what I was craving)

 

The shotgun distance and settings were fine - even set a little too light for the wind conditions.

The rifle target distances were fine - my disagreement was with shooting rifle targets at angles (decreasing effective/ visual target sizing and affecting splatter {and yes, I got hit by splatter}) 

The match was set up to allow both movement rightward or leftward in many cases with duplicate shotgun arrays to facilitate this - duplicate rifle arrays could have easily been used. to effect straight on shooting of the rifles.

I expected steak, but (again, IMO) I didn't like the flavor - I question the preparation.

 

 

The physical stages (other than my disagreement with angles) were PERFECTLY ok.

Movement was fine with no track meet issues.

The written component of the stage writing was (again, solely in my opinion) lacking in clarity and detail.

And because of this brevity - I personally have a hard time believing 600 shooters and 30 posses shot the same match.

 

Stage 10 is a perfect example - stage instructions stated shoot from "Position" - Posse instruction stated that the positions 3 and 4 were NOT the positions as listed on the sheet but simply either side of the visual barrier.  

So did every posse get the same opportunity?

We had a great Posse Marshal - but I would not be surprised if some forgot to share that information with their shooters.

On the flip side - because of the lack of specifics - Did some posse marshals offer latitudes to their shooters that others did not?

 

Written instructions can still allow for shooter choice and options - while avoiding inconsistent opportunities and application of design.

We read the directions in the hotel room every night before shooting - but I finally had to rewrite them in my wife's shooters book to clarify and help her to visualize and understand them.

 

I've attended enough matches and written enough stages to figure out vague instructions - but IMO they could/ should have been done better.

 

I have never attended a perfect shoot - nor have I ever put one on.

No one - not a single person, that I spoke with said the shoot was BAD - but when shooters of various skill levels are bringing up the same issues.

 

Pistol placements

Rifle angles

Written instructions/ clarity/ detail/ opportunities

 

The restaurant doesn't need to change what they're serving - but perhaps clean up the menu a little.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Oh, there most definitely IS a difference in Pizza! (says the Chicago born pizza snob) 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Evil, what I was responding to was the belief that since it is the World Championship, it should be more difficult to shoot.

 

So I think you and I are saying the same thing - we don't expect EOT to be significantly more difficult than other matches.

 

You shoot a "representative " match, not something specifically harder or easier.  And let the competition be the deciding factor. 

 

From what I understand that is pretty much what EOT has done and did again this year.  They did use the SASS cowboy targets and they can be just a little easier to miss compared to a rectangle, etc.  But they were relatively close and very shootable.  But you would have to use the front site a bit.

 

I was not there but from folks like Sante Fe River Stand and some others, it sounded like a fun match.

 

So I wonder why the slightly different distribution of times.  Was it the Cowboy shaped targets? Did they use more of those this year? Or?

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

50 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

First and foremost - we are not basketball, football or golf.

Our courses vary with every match and every stage.

A better analogy for our game, instead of sports, would be food - if I go to a steakhouse - I expect steak.

Different cuts of steak/ different spices/ different preparations are available - but its all steak.

 

Or if I go to a pizza joint - I want pizza.

A zillion variations in pizza, but its all pizza.

 

But what I don't expect in either is sushi - now maybe the sushi is fantastic - the best sushi in the world.

But if I don't want or have any interest in sushi - I wont be happy.

And lastly; as for the little bit of something for everybody theory - that's called a buffet - and honestly no one prefers a buffet over their favorite food.

 

Now back to the original thought...

I think everyone has gotten WAY off track with what has been said.

NO ONE said EOT was a bad match.  It WAS not.  

We said, in our HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS, that we believe there are things that could have been done (should have been done) so it could have been better.

 

The pistol targets were NOT too far out.

They were further out than I expected them to be; based on input from previous years.

It wasn't BAD - it just, IMO, could have been better.  (I expected steak {not going to say I got sushi} but I got a burger - delicious; but not what I was craving)

 

The shotgun distance and settings were fine - even set a little too light for the wind conditions.

The rifle target distances were fine - my disagreement was with shooting rifle targets at angles (decreasing effective/ visual target sizing and affecting splatter {and yes, I got hit by splatter}) 

The match was set up to allow both movement rightward or leftward in many cases with duplicate shotgun arrays to facilitate this - duplicate rifle arrays could have easily been used. to effect straight on shooting of the rifles.

I expected steak, but (again, IMO) I didn't like the flavor - I question the preparation.

 

 

The physical stages (other than my disagreement with angles) were PERFECTLY ok.

Movement was fine with no track meet issues.

The written component of the stage writing was (again, solely in my opinion) lacking in clarity and detail.

And because of this brevity - I personally have a hard time believing 600 shooters and 30 posses shot the same match.

 

Stage 10 is a perfect example - stage instructions stated shoot from "Position" - Posse instruction stated that the positions 3 and 4 were NOT the positions as listed on the sheet but simply either side of the visual barrier.  

So did every posse get the same opportunity?

We had a great Posse Marshal - but I would not be surprised if some forgot to share that information with their shooters.

On the flip side - because of the lack of specifics - Did some posse marshals offer latitudes to their shooters that others did not?

 

Written instructions can still allow for shooter choice and options - while avoiding inconsistent opportunities and application of design.

We read the directions in the hotel room every night before shooting - but I finally had to rewrite them in my wife's shooters book to clarify and help her to visualize and understand them.

 

I've attended enough matches and written enough stages to figure out vague instructions - but IMO they could/ should have been done better.

 

I have never attended a perfect shoot - nor have I ever put one on.

No one - not a single person, that I spoke with said the shoot was BAD - but when shooters of various skill levels are bringing up the same issues.

 

Pistol placements

Rifle angles

Written instructions/ clarity/ detail/ opportunities

 

The restaurant doesn't need to change what they're serving - but perhaps clean up the menu a little.

This post makes the most sense of any I have seen on the subject. There is a really cool shoot out here that is known for being a difficult match with really far targets, lots of movement, 6+ shotgun stages standard, etc. If I went to that match and it was suddenly bordertown, I would be livid and never come back to that "restaurant". So I understand fully what some folks are complaining about.

[Tyrel Cody]

46 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Oh, there most definitely IS a difference in Pizza! (says the Chicago born pizza snob) 

 

Chicago style pizza isn't pizza, it's pie

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

2 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Chicago style pizza isn't pizza, it's pie

All pizza is a pie.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

So I wonder why the slightly different distribution of times.  Was it the Cowboy shaped targets? Did they use more of those this year? Or?

 

They used the same targets that they have been using for YEARS (at least since 2010 my first EOT).....it's all they have....as far as I can tell they have not invested in new steel in a long time. It's not like they had a bunch of 18x24 targets that they have been using and decided to leave them in the shed.

 

When was it decided that all the targets had to be directly in front of the shooter for it to be proper placement? I guess I didn't get the memo. You guys would probably not like shooting targets that weren't all the same height for each type of gun.....HOW BORING!!!!!!

 

Please don't come to a match down south.....we use target stands of varying heights......the targets are not all directly in front of you......shotgun targets are not all set in pairs....we rarely use stand and deliver.... not every target is huge.....and we use shotgun targets as pistol and rifle knockdowns......BUT....we do have a hell of a good time shooting! I guess that's why I enjoyed EOT this year!!!!

 

Stan

[Dusty Devil Dale]

8 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm here to tell you what separates those top guys out has nothing to do with whether one of them has short stroked pistols and the other doesn't.  They're operating on the bleeding edge of what is humanly possible to do with our guns

You do hopefully realize that if folks are "operating on the bleeding edge of what can be done with our guns", then their guns are in fact their limitation, by your own words.

 

Did I miss something? 

 

I'm not discounting anybody's skill here, I'm only saying their skill produces better results with improved hardware.   At least I hope everyone hasn't just been wasting their cash on SS products from SGB, Taylor's, CIS, and many others.  Maybe we should have just saved all of that money and practiced more on our skills - - eh? 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

6 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

So is your criticism of the equipment being used and the gunsmithing that’s been done to them? If I were wanting to become a champion or even better at what I do I’d want to use the best equipment there is to aid me in my game. Take a look at Deuce Stevens video of him running a Miruko Winchester 1873 right out of the box and tell me that most of what he did wasn’t ability. 99% of us wouldn’t have been able to come close to running it like that. If you ever get the chance to posse up with Matt Black do so because that young man is an absolute blur compared to you or me. At the Western Regional a few years ago I watched him stumble and almost end up on the ground on a stage with a lot of down range movement and he still shot it in 16 seconds. Every category champion at EOT is champion because of their hard work, drive and ability, slicked up guns have very little to do with it, IMHO, of course.

We 100% agree.  

And NO, I'm in no way criticizing anything, particularly not the gunsmithing work.  (My guns are short stroked too).

I am only pointing out that short stroking does reduce shooting string times, particularly among top tier shooters. 

To my original point, simpler, easier stage designs (as folks here were advocating) will decrease almost everyones' times and thus tighten up the time separations in those top ranks.  As shoot time differences are tightened up, then even small improvements in guns will become more important as competitive factors. 

 

Otherwise, nobody would bother to short stroke their rifles or pistols.  We do it because it improves our times and competitiveness. 

 

One point made here that is a very valid counter-argument to my original post, was that pretty much everyone has modified firearms, so the differences between guns may be very inconsequential.  I would have to agree.  

 

Thanks for forcing clarity here.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Please don't come to a match down south.....we use target stands of varying heights......the targets are not all directly in front of you......shotgun targets are not all set in pairs....we rarely use stand and deliver.... not every target is huge.....and we use shotgun targets as pistol and rifle knockdowns......BUT....we do have a hell of a good time shooting! I guess that's why I enjoyed EOT this year!!!!

I think I'd like shooting at your club.  Sounds like my style of CAS. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

You do hopefully realize that if folks are "operating on the bleeding edge of what can be done with our guns", then their guns are in fact their limitation, by your own words.

 

Did I miss something? 

 

I'm not discounting anybody's skill here, I'm only saying their skill produces better results with improved hardware.   At least I hope everyone hasn't just been wasting their cash on SS products from SGB, Taylor's, CIS, and many others.  Maybe we should have just saved all of that money and practiced more on our skills - - eh? 

Yes you did miss something, ‘humanly possible’ in my statement.  

 

All the best golfers have top of the line equipment, what separates them isn’t equipment or the course, it’s innate ability and practice, practice, practice to the point of being on the edge of what a human can do.

 

CAS is the same.