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Progressive vs. Turret vs. Single Station Presses


Mountain Man Gramps

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MMG, they have a BPCR match out at Pala but the only problem is it’s on the first Saturday, we’d miss you at the Bandidos match. I missed a Bandidos  match a few years ago to go to the BPCR match and I have a lot more fun at the Bandidos match. YMMV.

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Driftwood - "Although I load all my CAS ammo on a Hornady Lock & Load AP, I load my Black Powder 45-70 ammo on my old Lyman Spartan press that I bought when I was first learning to reload. Unlike loading 100s of rounds at a time for CAS, I like to take my time when loading 45-70. I actually enjoy the process. "

 

"You only put in the dies you need at the time. If I was going to load 45-70 on my L&L I would run all the cases through just the sizing de/cap die and belling dies first. Then I would take all off the press to charge with powder.  Then I would put the compression die and seater/crimp die in the press and run everything through that."

 

Driftwood, thanks for your post.  Your step-by-step process made me realize I'm too much in a CAS volume pistol-rifle frame of mind.  Very enlightening.

 

 

 

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OLG,

 

The latest Cowboy Chronicles has an article about Old E.  The writer speaks very highly of it.  That will be the first powder I use.

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  • 3 weeks later...

OLG,

I’ve read Mike Venturino’s “Shooting Buffalo Guns of the Wild West”.  Excellent recommendation and definitely worth the time.  I’m now reading Lyman’s bullet casting manual with the black powder manual next.  Amazingly, I haven’t spent much money yet!

 

You made the comment, “You will also want a stepped expander plug, since you'll be shoot'n lead.“   How is this expander different than the expander in RCBS’s Cowboy die set since the RCBS is specified for lead bullets?

 

BTW, after a close look at the photos in Mike’s book, it looks like he uses a slight roll crimp.  That with his mention of crimping into the “crimp groove or the top grease grove” to me implies a roll crimp.  Any thoughts anyone?

 

Here is a list of what I culled from Mike’s book:

Based on Mike Venturino’s “Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West, use the following BP components:

  1. Cases - Starline (pg. 78)
  2. Primers - Federal 215 Large Rifle Magnum (pg. 96)
  3. Wads - Vegetable wads, 0.060” thick (pg. 92).  https://www.buffaloarms.com/45-caliber-rifle-463-060-vegetable-fiber-walters-wads-bag-of-1000-wal463060
  4. Lubricant -  SPG BPCR (pg. 85).  This is a critical component of BPCR reloading.
  5. Bullet Mould - Lyman 457125 (pg 86).  Good for match shooting and large animals like bison due to its weight, 520 gr.
  6. Powder -  GOEX Olde Eynsford 2f.  Recommended by Original Lumpy Gritz  See also chapter 18 of Venturino’s book.

 

Summary of Venturino’s reloading procedure (pg.96):

“As a synopsis of just how I go about reloading my own buffalo rifle cartridges I'll finish up thusly:

  1. Resize all cases fully.
  2. Make sure all cases are trimmed to the same length.
  3. During case preparation clean primer pockets.
  4. Clean inside of case mouths with stainless steel or bronze brush.
  5. Bell case mouth so a bullet base will start freely, and use an expander stem at least .002 inch smaller than the bullet's diameter.
  6. Prime with Federal 215 Magnum (or other primer that has been proven better).
  7. Use a bullet cast of a suitable alloy such as 20:1 lead:tin that is of barrel groove diameter or .001 inch over, and whose nose will be approximately .002 under barrel land diameter.
  8. Lube the bullet with an SPG black powder bullet lubricant.
  9. Charge the case with enough black powder so that the bullet will compress it about 1/16 of an inch, including the wad if one is used.
  10. Seat bullets so that all grease grooves are covered and give case mouths a firm crimp into crimping groove or top grease groove.”.  From photos, Mike seems to use a bevel crimp or at most a very slight roll crimp into a groove.  Therefore, RCBs’s Cowboy die set will work with the crimp adjusted to be just barely a roll.  Also, since crimping is into a grove, that implies a roll crimp.

 

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No crimp in SS rifle. Just barely cover the top lube groove.......

Give CCI br2 or Fed match primers a go-NO need for mag.

My bullets are 30:1 alloy lubed with DGL.

Anneal your case mouths.

Use a .457 dia case expander.

OLG

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OLG (or anyone), both you and Mike Venturino say to use an expander that is 0.002" smaller than the bullet.  I'm sure you're correct, but I don't understand.  I thought the expander is supposed to let the bullet easily slide into the case with the crimper then compressing the case on to the bullet just a little bit.  In this case, it sounds like you'll be shaving lead off the sides of the bullet.  What am I missing?

 

Sorry to ask so many questions, but this newbie is just starting to learn.

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They mean the main body of the expander stem. Right at the top will be the case mouth expander to give the case a tiny flare just to start the bullet. The rest of the case will be a tight fit  (hopefully).

Hope this helps , Rex :D

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On 6/20/2019 at 7:03 PM, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

You can use your LNL as a single stage and weigh powder charges individually. Your desired level of consistency will not suffer. 

I do this on my 550. But.... I get a nice consistent powder drop from the Dillon measure. 

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On 6/21/2019 at 5:43 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Pretty much what I do-Also when I seat the bullet.........

I run the ram till the bullet is about 1/2 seated, then lower the ram some and rotate the rnd 180* and then finish seating.

Also-Keep your lead bullet weight to 1/2 grain variance.

What will you do for fouling control with BP.

What bullet lube will you use?

What alloy?

What bullet type?

Do not crimp with SS rifle-Just bump the rnd in the size die enough to close the case mouth to let you chamber the rnd.

OLG

 

I re-read parts of this post and finding that I am progressively learning from all that’s being shared as this post gets longer.  For example, I missed what OLG was saying in his post about crimping.  I assumed you always had to use some sort of crimping die.

 

But OLD if I understand you correctly now, you said you don’t use a crimping die or a seating-crimping die, just a seating die and tap  the bullet into place while rotating it.  You then use sizing die to squeeze the case just enough on to the bullet to hold it in place.  Did I get that correct?

 

You also mentioned a “stepped expander plug”.  Is there a difference between that and the expander plug you get in RCBS’s Cowboy die set for 45-70?

 

What I’m thinking of doing is getting the RCBS 45-70 cowboy die set and taking advantage of their $25 service where they make you a custom seating plug based on three bullet samples you send them.  I’ll then use the sizer/deprimer and expander dies as they come out of the box and replace the stock seating plug in the seater/crimp die with the custom seater plug.  I’ll then set the seater crimp die to seat only, seat as you described, and then use the sizer/deprimer to close the mouth around the bullet as you described after removing the deprimer.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I’m still debating in my mind about measuring powder.  I’m thinking about some sort of powder drop into a scale with a trickle to finish it off, but then my sub-$100 Hornady LNL powder drop easily does +/- 0.1 grains by itself.  Is there any equivalent for BP?  From what I’ve read so far, there isn’t.  Or does anyone know of one?

 

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No 'tapping'-seat some, then rotate case 180* and finish seating.

I use the expander plugs from Buffalo Arms Co. The one I use for the .45 cal Sharps is .457 body with a .461 'bell' at the top.

Go with RCBS.

FWIW: For my .45-70 Shiloh. I F/L size the cases in a .45-90 die, as it works the brass less.

No-crimp........I just bump the loaded rnd into size die just a touch.

OLG

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