Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I'd like to try out long range rifle shooting, but I want to count the costs if/before I start down that trail. I've read that the most accurate ammo is what you make yourself. I'd guess some of that depends on the press, but how much? I have a Hornady Lock-n-Load progressive press. Is there any advantage to using a turret or single station press instead of a progressive press if your goal is real accurate ammo? Any actual test data? I'm sure my Hornady could get me a long way down the trail before it's the limiting factor, but just thought I'd ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 No advantage, the LNL makes great ammo. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I have often said that I load on my progressive for quantity. Yes, there is a quality check when I do it, but when I go to the reloading room to load 2000 pistol rounds, If each round is +/- .1 grain, that is within my quality range when producing for quantity - especially as CAS distances. I also have a couple single stage presses when I want to load for quality. I do that when loading for long range because I want to take my time and get each bullet as close to possible as the rest in that lot. In addition to all the other things going on, including weighing each powder charge, sorting projectiles and loading them by weight, trimming cases and sorting them, and all the other stuff that goes on, I do it one at a time. I do it that way because I want them all to be as close to the same as I can get. A turret press would also be good for this method of operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Reckon I'm with Branchwater on this one. For long range you won't be shooting a ton of rounds compared with normal cowboy matches, so the extra time of a single stage is no big deal. You can load quantity for cowboy on a single stage, I did it for years, but it takes up a chunk of time. Then again if you're limited to just one press, and will be loading for cowboy as well, a progressive might be a better choice, and when you want things to be just a bit more precise, just run one case thru at a time. If you've never reloaded before, finding a local pard to give you some hands on guidance is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I load my cowboy long range 38-55 on a turret press and drop my powder charge with an RCBS Unifow. I was just dropping the preset charge , but then decided to weigh each one. I was very disappointed to see a quite large variance. I now drop the charge intentionally short and trickle the required amount while the shell sits on my scale. Works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I load on a D/550 and my match ammo will be at least equal to or better than any factory match ammo out there. No brag-Just fact and I have the awards to prove this. I also shoot past 1K yds routinely. Size the case to fit your rifle's chamber and keep bullet TIR run-out under .003. Learn to anneal case necks. This is needed for uniform case neck tension. Keep a log book....... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Mountain Man Gramps said: I'd like to try out long range rifle shooting, but I want to count the costs if/before I start down that trail. I've read that the most accurate ammo is what you make yourself. I'd guess some of that depends on the press, but how much? I have a Hornady Lock-n-Load progressive press. Is there any advantage to using a turret or single station press instead of a progressive press if your goal is real accurate ammo? Any actual test data? I'm sure my Hornady could get me a long way down the trail before it's the limiting factor, but just thought I'd ask. Before even beginning, we need to know if you are talking about shooting long range with modern firearms (e. g.,. 338 Lapua Magnum) and jacketed ammunition, or historical rifles that traditionally shot lead projectiles propelled by black powder. Then we need to know if you desire to shoot black or smokeless powder. The reloading process for each of these is quite different and in some cases fairly detailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 Thanks for the good info, everyone. The 1800's historical single shot rifles like the Sharps, etc. are what appeal to me. That's why I'm on this site. The caliber would probably be 45-70. And I'll try a fellow cowboy's gun to make sure I like it before I acquire one. Like I said, I'm gathering info to decide which way to go, if I do. And I realize it will be a good while before what's in the gun will make a bigger difference than what's behind the gun... Also, I'll be shooting smokeless powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, Mountain Man Gramps said: Thanks for the good info, everyone. The 1800's historical single shot rifles like the Sharps, etc. are what appeal to me. That's why I'm on this site. The caliber would probably be 45-70. And I'll try a fellow cowboy's gun to make sure I like it before I acquire one. Like I said, I'm gathering info to decide which way to go, if I do. And I realize it will be a good while before what's in the gun will make a bigger difference than what's behind the gun... Have you check'd out this site? BTW: I load .45-70 & .45-90 on my D/550 for our Sharps. http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/ OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 Nope, but I will. Didn't know about it. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 You can use your LNL as a single stage and weigh powder charges individually. Your desired level of consistency will not suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 55 minutes ago, Mountain Man Gramps said: Nope, but I will. Didn't know about it. Thanks! Here's another........... http://www.bpcr.net/forum/ Sure hope you plan to use real BP. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intervention Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 David Tubbs and John Widden Champions of long-range shooting load their ammo on the Dillon XL 650 with John Widden's floating toolheads.https://www.whiddengunworks.com/floa...lon-toolheads/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 A combination of progressive with manual intervention sounds like a possibility. I could use my progressive and remove the shell at the critical steps to perform manually, like loading the powder. How does using the progressive for depriming, sizing, repriming, and expanding, then removing the case for manual powder load and bullet insertion, then reinserting the case in the progressive for seating and crimping sound? This would take all 5 stations in my Hornady Lock-n-Load using separate seating and crimping dies. Or is there another critical step that should be performed manually? What is the suggested powder load accuracy? My scale will do +/- 0.1 grains. Is that close enough? Or course, this is only worth all the effort when when the guy behind the gun is less of a factor that what he puts in the gun. That will surely be a while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intervention Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 John Whidden has some good videos of his process for long-range precision loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I don't have a LNL press but you might just be able to set up all of the dies in the tool head and deactivate the autoindexing mechanism. I've done this before and it works well. I process .308 ammo this way. Do one step for all of the brass that I am loading so as to have consistency in the process. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckwagon McTaggart Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 The Hornady LNL makes it easy by allowing you to remove the individual dies from whichever stations you might want to perform manually off of the press. You could size and deprime as you normally would, hand prime and individually weigh each charge if you like, then seat and crimp on the LNL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 It’s interesting that John Whidden has identified the sizer and seating steps as the most critical steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Bullet seathing depth is critically important in long range shooting and will be gun dependant, or more importantly, YOUR gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 12 hours ago, Mountain Man Gramps said: A combination of progressive with manual intervention sounds like a possibility. I could use my progressive and remove the shell at the critical steps to perform manually, like loading the powder. How does using the progressive for depriming, sizing, repriming, and expanding, then removing the case for manual powder load and bullet insertion, then reinserting the case in the progressive for seating and crimping sound? This would take all 5 stations in my Hornady Lock-n-Load using separate seating and crimping dies. Or is there another critical step that should be performed manually? What is the suggested powder load accuracy? My scale will do +/- 0.1 grains. Is that close enough? Or course, this is only worth all the effort when when the guy behind the gun is less of a factor that what he puts in the gun. That will surely be a while! Pretty much what I do-Also when I seat the bullet......... I run the ram till the bullet is about 1/2 seated, then lower the ram some and rotate the rnd 180* and then finish seating. Also-Keep your lead bullet weight to 1/2 grain variance. What will you do for fouling control with BP. What bullet lube will you use? What alloy? What bullet type? Do not crimp with SS rifle-Just bump the rnd in the size die enough to close the case mouth to let you chamber the rnd. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 OLG, I’ll probably start out with smokeless powder then try BP. How large a powder variance do you allow? I’m thinking the first bullet I load will be Missouri Bullet Company’s #1 SOCOM grooveless, 410 grain RNFP, Brinell 18 coated bullet. That’s the first time I’ve heard about not crimping, but it makes sense. I assume a neck-only sizer is recommended? BTW, in case you can’t tell, i’m an engineer so I tend to analyze everything to death. My wife always warns the person on the other side of the table when we’re signing any kind of document! But I’m having as much fun learning as I can. Thanks, everyone, for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 OLG, I just reread your post. It sounds like either a full body or neck-only sizer will do since you’re only sizing the very top of the case. Did I read that correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I only load real BP(Old 'E' 2F)for our Sharps. With BP I found +/- .2 gn your're GTG. I full length size my cases. I use a .45-90 F/L size die(RCBS)for the .45-70. No reason you can't jump in using real BP. The rifle will shoot much better with it. I strongly urge you to get this book.....to get started. https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Buffalo-Rifles-Old-West/dp/B000H7NBAM You going to cast your own? Buy'n them is pricey. Here's a good guy to deal with and he is a BPCR shooter. https://www.montanabulletworks.com/ I suggest a 540gn Creedmoor style bullet. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 21, 2019 Author Share Posted June 21, 2019 Thank you! Please keep the suggestions coming. I found the book in very good used condition on eBay for half the Amazon price. Ordered it and it’s on its way. I'm going to check into BP as well. I noticed you’re “semi-local”. I’m going to be at the Cajon Cowboys tomorrow. Any chance you’re going to be there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Can't make Cajon. The only thing I would suggest instead of use'n mag primers like Mike sez--- Get a case of CCI Br2 primers. I order all my BP from here-This is the powder I use. https://powderinc.com/product/goex-olde-eynsford-2f/ You'll need a compression die for the powder--You can order one to fit a spare die body. this one is for Redding. https://www.buffaloarms.com/45-caliber-rifle-compression-plug-for-redding-expander-dies-bac45rcpr You will also want a stepped expander plug, since you'll be shoot'n lead. This is for a Redding die body. https://www.buffaloarms.com/456-460-custom-bullet-expander-ball-for-redding-expander-dies-bac456460 This is the powder measure I use-You want either the 1/2 lb of 1 pound hopper. https://montanavintagearms.com/product/reloading/black-powder-measure/ MVA also has the best tang sights made-Look at the Buffalo Soule long range and #113 front. Also-look at .060 fiber wads. https://www.buffaloarms.com/45-caliber-rifle-463-060-vegetable-fiber-walters-wads-bag-of-1000-wal463060 Welcome to the poor-house......... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted June 22, 2019 Author Share Posted June 22, 2019 I think I’m going to save some pennies and nickels for a while while I continue the fun of learning more about what I’ll be inflicting on my wallet in the future. In the meantime, conversations like this topic will help me get only what I really need and hopefully not learn at the expense of my pocket book. It will experience enough pain as it is! I’m saving all the links and will probably start gathering lead after the matches. I’v already figured out that if you have to purchase lead, you give up most of your savings. Are there still benefits to using coated bullets if you’re shooting BP? I noticed the fiber wads you mentioned protect the base of the bullet, but what about the rest of it? Although to be honest, I’d rather not hassle coating bullets. Is the hassle worth it if you’re shooting BP? BTW, thanks for all the leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 In BPCR shooting with good fouling control when using real BP. Coated bullets are unnecessary. or wanted. The only 'coated' bullet I have used with success is paper-patched....... But, do to Old Arthur in my hands-I use grease groove bullets and very happy with them. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Snuffy Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Boulder Canyon Bob does the exact same thing I do. A Lee turret press, good balance beam scale and Lee Dies will get you in this game as bout as cheap as can be done (IMHO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tennessee Snuffy said: Boulder Canyon Bob does the exact same thing I do. A Lee turret press, good balance beam scale and Lee Dies will get you in this game as bout as cheap as can be done (IMHO). IMHO-Lee F/L size dies over-work the case via sizing the case to much for the caliber. Why I stopped using them.............. In a lever action rifle or such for hunt'n they would be great. Respectfully, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raylan Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 When I reload for long range rifle I shoot about 50 to 100 cartridges loaded with new brass from the same batch that I have weighed for uniformity in the rifle I am reloading for, if it is a new rifle then I use those cartridges to establish an accurate load. Then I take those fired cartridges and neck size them as little as possible. Then I trim all of them to the exact same length. Then I neck turn them by hand. Then I weigh them again and sort them by uniformity. I have measured the chamber and throat of the rifle so then I adjust the bullet seating so they will be just off the lands (usually measure chamber and seating die adjusted before loading the first time when shooting to find an accurate load). Then I weigh each powder charge and trickle to the exact same weight of the charge I have found most accurate. Then seat and crimp. I use a single stage press, an an old RCBS Rockchucker Supreme that I started on. I did convert it using the Hornady Lock and Load system so the dies snap in and out once set. For a scale I have an old RCBS 10-10 but have switched to an electronic magnetic force restoration scale. Also use a pocket uniformer and a flash hole deburrer. I don't anneal my cases as about that time it became the rage I gave up reloading and most shooting for awhile, so maybe some day I will get into that, though I don't think for the first couple of loadings from new brass it makes a real difference. Oh I also weigh each bullet and only use a high quaity bullet with a high ballistic coefficient. By the time I am done, I am almost too exhausted to shoot and besides that why would I want to shoot my perfect rifle rounds. Honestly I don't shoot well enough to justify all that work. Realistically for me and for most you can reload perfectly fine ammo on a progressive that will be as accurate or more so than you can shoot. Granted the best shooters do benefit from carefully crafted ammo. I think I have done it just for the satisfaction of making high quality ammunition not so much from any benefit to my accuracy. I would probably be better off just loading on a progressive and practising shooting more, estimating distance and wind. Since you have a progressive you know and like I would say to use that. Most importantly have fun and be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Howdy First of all, I don't see or shoot well enough to be able to take advantage of extremely accurate long range rifle ammo. So I don't go through all the steps of weighing my brass and bullets. Although I load all my CAS ammo on a Hornady Lock & Load AP, I load my Black Powder 45-70 ammo on my old Lyman Spartan press that I bought when I was first learning to reload. Unlike loading 100s of rounds at a time for CAS, I like to take my time when loading 45-70. I actually enjoy the process. I usually only load up 40 0r 50 rounds at a time. I like to divide up my 45-70 reloading sessions into two halves. First I will decap and size my brass, then prime them off the press with my RCBS hand priming tool. That's the first half. The brass is now ready to receive powder charges and bullets. I'll often just do the first half and come back the next day to complete the process. I have a Lyman Black Powder powder measure mounted on my Honady L&L. The Lyman powder measure accepts powder metering drums from standard Lyman powder measures. I buy old Lyman powder measures whenever I find them and cannibalize them for the drums. You can see here one is preset for my 45-70 charges. I throw each charge from the powder measure into a pan off of a powder scale. Then I trickle it down my home made drop tube into each case. Next, it is back to the Lyman single stage press where I use a compression die to compress the powder slightly with a thin over powder card. Then I seat and crimp my bullets. Yes, I do put a small amount of crimp on my ammo, even though I am only shooting them through my antique Trap Door rifle. I use 405 grain flat nosed bullets from Montana Precision Swaging. I bought them a long time ago from Buffalo Arms. It looks like those bullets are no longer available, if I want more bullets from Buffalo Arms I am going to have to settle for 350 grain bullets. https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies-accessories/jacketed-lead-copper-coated-bullets/cast-bullets?cat=496 Here is a photo of one of my 45-70 rounds, the big one on the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 On 6/20/2019 at 8:10 PM, Mountain Man Gramps said: How does using the progressive for depriming, sizing, repriming, and expanding, then removing the case for manual powder load and bullet insertion, then reinserting the case in the progressive for seating and crimping sound? This would take all 5 stations in my Hornady Lock-n-Load using separate seating and crimping dies. You only put in the dies you need at the time. If I was going to load 45-70 on my L&L I would run all the cases through just the sizing de/cap die and belling dies first. Then I would take all off the press to charge with powder. Then I would put the compression die and seater/crimp die in the press and run everything through that. P.S. Somebody mentioned Mike Venturino's book about Buffalo Rifles. An excellent resource. It covers all the old single shot rifles and all the old single shot cartridges. There is a general section on reloading with Black Powder for single shot cartridges, and there is loading data for each specific cartridge. Of course all the data is Black Powder only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Dies !!!! good ones .... Powder Measure !!!! ,,,,,,, same as above .... Attention to detail !!! I have Two .38-55s , One .45-70 and One .40-65 ,,,,,, and I use the .40-65, 95% OF THE TIME ... And have used it out past 1.300 yards .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Gramps Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 Thanks again everyone for your posts. I picked up Mike Venturino's book about Buffalo rifles and it is excellent. Also, Shiloh’s website also has a couple of good books that are now on my read list. OLG, I’ve changed my mind. Based on Venturino’s Book, I’ll definitely start shooting with black powder, especially since, as you pointed out, they shoot better with it. I’m also finding that half the fun of BPCR is the process of getting there, all the learning, reading, and discussions. And that will help reduce unneeded purchases. Since this won’t be a cheap venture, that’s good. So for now, I’m reading, learning, and saving my pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Order some Old 'E' 2F and have fun...... https://powderinc.com/ OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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