Bisley Joe Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 So.... Now I have a pair of 1851 Navies in .36! Both Piettas. Both slicked up really nice. Only thing is, neither one's cylinder moves at half cock, and one of them isn't spinning the cylinder most of the time when I cock it. If I hold it sideways the cylinder rotates, but holding it correctly, the cylinder doesn't move. And I don't want to shoot my 1851s like some gangsta-buffoon from the hood. I'm going to look up how to work on them. But if anyone has experience with these, I'd love to hear your advice. I'd really love to shoot these at matches, and they may be my wife's beginner guns-once I work out the current gremlins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Do you mean you can't spin the cylinder manually on half cock? It sounds like you may have a broken hand spring and/or bolt spring. Point the gun down and pull the hammer back; does the cylinder turn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 PLUS ONE too Tyrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Dave Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 I concur. Sounds like a broken hand spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 Both revolvers lock the cylinder at half-cock. One of them usually does not rotate the cylinder when cocked. I say usually because it may occasionally move the cylinder one chamber, but then that's it. When it does rotate, the cylinder stops just short of perfect alignment. I'm gonna mosey on over to Sportsman's and get a little gun tool kit. Don't want to mess up the screws with regular drivers. I'll post pictures of what I find later. I'm gonna be referring to the attached files, some of which I got from someone here. What do you think? Also,, I figured maybe others can use the information. I've never done that stuff before, so I want to be careful. In the meantime, if y'all have any advice on where to get good replacement parts-unless Pietta is fine. Thank you in advance. colt_cap_and_ball.pdf SHOOTING THE BLACK POWDER REVOLVER 5_ gunsmithing.pages Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Hand spring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 Just now, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: Hand spring You think it's the hand spring for both issues: the cylinder not rotating and staying locked at half-cock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 They shouldn't be locking the cylinder at half cock. Did you point them down and see if they function as suggested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Bisley Joe said: You think it's the hand spring for both issues: the cylinder not rotating and staying locked at half-cock? Maybe something's jammed up inside em. Maybe they was put back together wrong. IDK, have to see em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 12 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said: They shouldn't be locking the cylinder at half cock. Did you point them down and see if they function as suggested? Pointing them down makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: Maybe something's jammed up inside em. Maybe they was put back together wrong. IDK, have to see em. I'll see about taking them down and putting up some pictures as soon as I can. Thank you guys, for your help. I do appreciate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Anytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 VTI have spare parts for those guns. https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Is the wedge too tight? Driven in too deeply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 50 minutes ago, Major Crimes said: VTI have spare parts for those guns. https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/ Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said: Is the wedge too tight? Driven in too deeply? Don't think so. Both guns seem fine in that respect. I'll see about opening them up a little later and post some pictures-if I can get any detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 Opened up the one with the stubborn cylinder and did a quick cleaning. It had been stored for years so had some gunk. Cleaned it with Balistol and then added some Frog Lube. Put her back together and culynder spins fine now. Only thing is, neither one has a free spinning cylinder at half-cock. I'll have to look into that. Pictures attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Give them bad boys a bath! The cylinder locking may be an issue with the tail of the cyl bolt and the mating point on the hammer. The hand spring looks to be intact and kinda stout as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Skip the frog lube. I doubt it is compatible with BP. For grease Mobil-1 red works really well. For oil Ballistol or EEZ-OX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Monger Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 I wonder if the bolt is sliding off the side of the hammer cam (locking the cylinder) rather than slipping off the end of the finger at full cock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Dave Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 I think Lead Monger is on to something. It seems as though that is what's happening. The bolt leg is sliding off the hammer cam. I noticed the trigger/bolt spring has been lightened. Did you do that? Or did it come that way? Has it been done on both pistols? You said neither gun will spin on half cock. I'm just wondering if this modified spring might be the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 13 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: Give them bad boys a bath! The cylinder locking may be an issue with the tail of the cyl bolt and the mating point on the hammer. The hand spring looks to be intact and kinda stout as well. Now I have to figure out what all that means! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 13 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: Skip the frog lube. I doubt it is compatible with BP. For grease Mobil-1 red works really well. For oil Ballistol or EEZ-OX. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 8 hours ago, Lead Monger said: I wonder if the bolt is sliding off the side of the hammer cam (locking the cylinder) rather than slipping off the end of the finger at full cock. How do I figure that out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 7 hours ago, Smokey Dave said: I think Lead Monger is on to something. It seems as though that is what's happening. The bolt leg is sliding off the hammer cam. I noticed the trigger/bolt spring has been lightened. Did you do that? Or did it come that way? Has it been done on both pistols? You said neither gun will spin on half cock. I'm just wondering if this modified spring might be the culprit. I'm gonna have to look up what those things are! JK Both guns were slicked up before I got them. I'm now wondering if the person who did the job sacrificed the half-cock free wheeling for slickery. The trigger is awesome on them, I'll say that! Is there a better way to do that? Should I get new trigger/bolt springs and lighten the trigger another way? And again, thank you guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Dave Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 18 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said: I'm gonna have to look up what those things are! JK Both guns were slicked up before I got them. I'm now wondering if the person who did the job sacrificed the half-cock free wheeling for slickery. The trigger is awesome on them, I'll say that! Is there a better way to do that? Should I get new trigger/bolt springs and lighten the trigger another way? And again, thank you guys! Sorry about all the confusing terminology. The trigger/bolt springs have definitely been lightened. Do you have any other Pietta single action pistols handy? If you do, you could swap the springs out of them into your 51's and see if it changes things. The cylinder should turn on half cock or you won't be able to load the pistols. The hand spring isn't broken, so that's not the culprit. But it sure sounds like the bolt is coming up too early and preventing the cylinder from turning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I think Dave is on the right track. Pull the cylinder and watch the bolt as you pull the hammer back. Is it dropping all the way down through the window? Curious if maybe the cam on the hammer has been filed incorrectly or just plain worn to where the timing is off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Dave Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 9 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said: I think Dave is on the right track. Pull the cylinder and watch the bolt as you pull the hammer back. Is it dropping all the way down through the window? Curious if maybe the cam on the hammer has been filed incorrectly or just plain worn to where the timing is off. TC, I was thinking that too. The cam on the hammer looks a little boogered up at the top. It could be causing the bolt leg to fall off early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 I think we're all thinkin the same thing here. Do some research and get to where you understand the terms of your parts and how they interact. The Jerry Kuhnhausen books are great as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 ive not shot my 51 enough to have an issue 'yet' but i do appreciate reading all these insightful posts regarding the diagnosis/fixes , thank you all im saving info for the day i do have a problem , you all are great , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Monger Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 A simple test. First clean all that crud out of the frame and off the parts. Use Q tips or brushes with gun solvent and /or hot soapy water and get rid of the goop. Now install the hammer then the bolt and then the trigger. Do not tighten the screws. Just run them in a few threads. You do not need to oil the parts at this time either. Also, do not install the trigger/bolt spring. You should have the hammer fully down and the bolt (cylinder lock) should be poking through the hole in the frame where it could lock the cylinder. Now turn the frame upside down so the trigger points up and you can look at the bolt arm hooked over the hammer cam. Put finger pressure on the bolt to simulate the spring and slowly pull the hammer to the full cock position while watching the bolt finger work on the hammer cam. If the finger slips off the side of the cam that’s the problem. If the finger stays on the cam until the cam is pulled out from under it that is what it is supposed to do. Your cylinder is locked at half cock so we know the bolt has slipped off the cam. I bet you can spread the legs on the bolt and get enough tension to keep that from happening. Be very careful. The bolt legs are easy to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 13 hours ago, Smokey Dave said: Sorry about all the confusing terminology. The trigger/bolt springs have definitely been lightened. Do you have any other Pietta single action pistols handy? If you do, you could swap the springs out of them into your 51's and see if it changes things. The cylinder should turn on half cock or you won't be able to load the pistols. The hand spring isn't broken, so that's not the culprit. But it sure sounds like the bolt is coming up too early and preventing the cylinder from turning. Those are the only two 51s I have. I may have to order a couple of replacement parts. I could also just load the cylinders outside the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Should be able to use a trigger/bolt spring from several different single action, Colt pattern guns to try. My guess is the hammer cam is not as it should be. Lots of information available to learn about how the parts all interact. YouTube videos. View many and don't take any as gospel, just as reference info. Some people that post actually know what they're doing, but you never know who that is. When you start to pull the hammer back, the bolt (part that comes up through the frame and locks the cylinder) should drop down and allow the cylinder to rotate. Stopping at half-cock, the bolt should stay down and allow you to have a free-spinning cylinder. Pulling the hammer the rest of the way back, the "tail" of the bolt will drop off the cam (short, cylindrical knob) on the hammer and allow the bolt to snap back up as the cylinder reaches the next chamber and lock the cylinder in place. Sounds like the bolt is coming off the cam too early and locking the cylinder prematurely. I'm not saying anything new, others have already explained this. Your problem is most likely the tail on the cyl bolt or the hammer cam. And scrub that sucker clean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley Joe Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 I pulled the barrel and cylinder off and the bolt stays up at half cock. I pushed down on it with the hammer down and it clicks and goes down a bit, but then pops right back up when I start to pull the hammer back. I'll do a thorough cleaning, and follow Lead Monger's process as soon as I get a minute to spare. I'll also look on you tube and that article on tuning these pistols. Worse case, I'll replace a few parts and start over. I'll check back in once I can run the test and watch/read a few instruction vids/articles. Again, Thank you all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.