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Dusty Devil Dale

Question came up - - WTC?

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8 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

Since it IS legal to do so, how 'bout if your range has a local rule that you can't that you announce THAT if you desire. If we made announcements about everything you CAN do we're never have time to actually shoot!:D

True. But it has been a very popular misperception that shadow shooting at the firing line was not allowed. Easy to clear up with once sentence. How are you doing?

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I remember one shooter, though I can't recall now who it was, just his routine where he would set down his rifle, get that lever exactly right off the table, angle his shotgun perfectly, then draw a pistol and aim, put it back in just right kind of bouncing it in the holster a bit, and do the same with the other. This was a fast shooter, so the whole routine lasted about 5 times as long as it took him to shoot the stage. And yet I don't remember hearing anyone complain. Probably because someone like me with no routine at all shot after him and still took twice as long in total time.

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OMG! 

Did I stir the burnt beans? 

Not the first time I've done that. 

You'd think I would have learned by now.  

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4 hours ago, Tully Mars said:

As long as they are just getting a sight picture and not shadow shooting the stage I see no problem.

 

For clarification, when I said "shadow shooting" in the above statement, I meant: as long as the shooter wasn't pulling each gun and actually working through the stage, shadow shooting with their guns. I should have used some other term, my intention wasn't to side track the conversation.

 

Routinely I shadow shoot the stage at the loading table, and if I'm in question when I reach the firing line I'll walk the stage and work my thumbs as if cocking the hammers while shooting GF at a monthly match. If it's a state match or higher I will walk the stage every time, just to make sure.  It's never my intention to slow the posse down, but to make sure I know what I'm doing. Many shooters do this as part of the routine stage shooting.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Since it has been traditionally not allowed or at least frowned upon why not make an announcement at the shooters meeting that it is allowed at your match. This way everyone is aware and can take advantage, with a clear conscious, if they choose to do so.

Where has bringing up one's gun to look down the sights been traditionally not allowed?

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4 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I recall something about Shadow Shooting being agin the rules, but damned if I can find it in the SHB now.

It was in there in a previous version. Don't know when it was dropped.

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Where has bringing up one's gun to look down the sights been traditionally not allowed?

I guess I'm wrong. Is shadow shooting the whole stage allowed? A single sight picture when staging your rifle isn't shadow shooting the stage. At one time I thought you were allowed to simulate shooting the stage and your transitions at the loading table, but not at the firing line. Maybe it was just local. 

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38 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I guess I'm wrong. Is shadow shooting the whole stage allowed? A single sight picture when staging your rifle isn't shadow shooting the stage. At one time I thought you were allowed to simulate shooting the stage and your transitions at the loading table, but not at the firing line. Maybe it was just local. 

I think shadow shooting a whole stage while yer on the stage is just considered rude... As far as shadow shooting while yer at the loading table, never heard that it's not allowed by anyone.

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Just to add another 2 centavo's.

I picked up my routine by watching lots of average to very good shooters as to how they approached the stage and prepared to shoot.

I shadow shoot just about every stage, or at least some portion to fix it in my less than reliable memory, from the loading table with my "John Wayne" gun (finger) prior to taking the stage.

Have not yet had anyone complain or try to tell me the chapter and verse that says it is illegal.

If I am at a new club or one I have not shot in quite a while I may take my  pistol or rifle and point it down range to check out contrast and lighting, if I am told that a club rule says no then I respect that and go about my business as best I can. I fully understand that I own any "Oooops" I may commit.

My shooters handbook of 2007 had a prohibition on DRY FIRE "the act of raising an unloaded firearm and working the action to simulate live fire procedures" at the loading table, but nothing regarding shadow shooting on the firing line. They are/were considered two separate acts. Besides, while I am not a top gun, if I were to decide to shadow shoot my firearms from all three shooting positions (which I DON'T do) and used 30-40 seconds to do so I will be done in another 20 or so seconds most days with the actual shooting. Most bigger matches allow somewhere around 1 minute 30 seconds to about 1 minute 45 seconds per shooter on average to keep on schedule. Don't think I am holding up the posse either. If I have no one has told me.:unsure:

YMMV

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Where has bringing up one's gun to look down the sights been traditionally not allowed?

 

FWIW, there was a club in PA, that is no longer active, that had a club rule that specifically did not allow the shooter on the line to get a sight picture with their guns before shooting the stage.  You were not allowed to bring your rifle to your shoulder while in the process of staging your guns.

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7 minutes ago, Dutch Coroner said:

 

FWIW, there was a club in PA, that is no longer active, that had a club rule that specifically did not allow the shooter on the line to get a sight picture with their guns before shooting the stage.  You were not allowed to bring your rifle to your shoulder while in the process of staging your guns.

Key point, they ain't around any more...:o

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17 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Key point, they ain't around any more...:o

Yep

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If it's not against the rules, it's not against the rules. Shadow shooting is not against the rules. How hard is that? OMG!

 

Odds are that the shooter who takes the time to shadow shoot is going to shoot the stage fast enough that their total time on the stage is less than many other shooters. If they're a new shooter who needs a bit of time to calm their nerves, by all means, do your best to run them off. We don't want any new shooters! Oh, wait! I could be wrong about that. :ph34r: Geez, Louise!

 

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DDD. You didn't stir the beans. It was a good question followed by some well deserved answers. Good to know that under the description you provided that it is not illegal. Whether it is the optimum thing to do or not is another issue. At least if someone ever does it while I'm on the clock I'll know the right call. Thanks!.. RR

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2 hours ago, Roger Rapid said:

DDD. You didn't stir the beans. It was a good question followed by some well deserved answers. Good to know that under the description you provided that it is not illegal. Whether it is the optimum thing to do or not is another issue. At least if someone ever does it while I'm on the clock I'll know the right call. Thanks!.. RR

That was my thinking in posting the OP.  As a TO/RO, we need to know how to deal with stuff that comes up, and there isn't much time or opportunity to consult in making real-time decisions.  It's really about fairness and minimizing T. O. call errors. 

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21 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I recall something about Shadow Shooting being agin the rules, but damned if I can find it in the SHB now.

I misunderstood and thought that's what he was talking about and it was (or is) in there...…...but I guess that's not the question. Taking the rifle (if at port arms) and testing the mount is one thing but pulling a pistol out and trying to find the sight picture probably should have been done on your own time in practice where you develop those skillsets and not the posse's. 

 

All I can say is while it's not illegal I sure hope it doesn't become the in thing.....too me it kinda' smells like I want everyone to think I know what I'm doing but I don't. 

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4 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

All I can say is while it's not illegal I sure hope it doesn't become the in thing.

What I'm reading here is that most wouldn't care if it is either prohibited or allowed.  We just need to be clear on how to call it. 

On 6/17/2019 at 5:55 AM, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

Point with your finger. No risk of a DQ there.

 

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Who cares? If yer gonna do it, be quick about it and get on with yer shootin.

And if you go through all your "guns" on the firing line, shadow shootin it up... you look like a goober.

Jussayin

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I've seen rifle's shouldered at the firing line but never a revolver drawn.

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12 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I've seen rifle's shouldered at the firing line but never a revolver drawn.

That's exactly how/why the original question came up.   

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19 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

What I'm reading here is that most wouldn't care if it is either prohibited or allowed.  We just need to be clear on how to call it. 

 

I'm not sure we can make a rule for everything.....at some point personal respect has to come into play. 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

I'm not sure we can make a rule for everything.....at some point personal respect has to come into play. 

I agree, but a TO sometimes has to address or redirect personal respect failures that come up on the firing line.   It seems a simple, broadly stated, additional Stage Convention on SHB p 14 could resolve all questions.   Too simple? 

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It seems to me that we're worried about the possibility that we will be struck by a meteor. Remain calm.  

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1 hour ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

It seems to me that we're worried about the possibility that we will be struck by a meteor. Remain calm.  

 

Are you sure we won't. Does this mean that the sky is not falling? 

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1 hour ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

It seems to me that we're worried about the possibility that we will be struck by a meteor. Remain calm.  

I agree. Boorish behavior at cowboy matches is extremely rare and can be solved by patience and avoidance.

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15 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Are you sure we won't. Does this mean that the sky is not falling? 

There's evidence that it occurred 65 million years ago, so it's due any minute now. :rolleyes::lol:

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27 minutes ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

There's evidence that it occurred 65 million years ago, so it's due any minute now. :rolleyes::lol:

Actually, it occurs about every 26 million years, when the Sun's paired star (a radar-visible black hole) rotates into position to create a major meteorite shower.  It's due again in about 7-9 million years.  At least that's one popular theory among astronomers.  Stray, large NEOs (near-Earth objects), space debris (including nukes) are probably a more imminent thing to focus on. 

 

But what's that got to do with the O. P.?   Absolutely nothing that I can see. 

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I prefer that  shooters get their "Shadow Shooting" done before the Stage is under way, but if they insist upon doing it just before they shoot, I won't jump them on it unless their continued action starts to interfere with the posse getting done on time. A shooter is supose to be ready to shoot when he comes to the Stage, if not ready, the TO has every right to direct him to the unloading table to unload and try again when he is ready.

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15 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Actually, it occurs about every 26 million years, when the Sun's paired star (a radar-visible black hole) rotates into position to create a major meteorite shower.  It's due again in about 7-9 million years.  At least that's one popular theory among astronomers.  Stray, large NEOs (near-Earth objects), space debris (including nukes) are probably a more imminent thing to focus on. 

 

But what's that got to do with the O. P.?   Absolutely nothing that I can see. 

Please see Cypress Sun and Captain Bill Burt's responses above. What it has to do with the original post: Your OP involves one person who asked whether or not they could draw a pistol, point it at the target, and return it to leather before the buzzer. From there, some begin to imagine that the typical behavior of cowboys and cowgirls, that we have been observing for many years, will suddenly change; everybody is going to begin shadow shooting stages before each stage. That, in my opinion, and I believe the majority of folks, is nearly as unlikely to occur as a massive meteor striking the earth in our lifetime. The sky is not falling.   

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48 minutes ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

Please see Cypress Sun and Captain Bill Burt's responses above. What it has to do with the original post: Your OP involves one person who asked whether or not they could draw a pistol, point it at the target, and return it to leather before the buzzer. From there, some begin to imagine that the typical behavior of cowboys and cowgirls, that we have been observing for many years, will suddenly change; everybody is going to begin shadow shooting stages before each stage. That, in my opinion, and I believe the majority of folks, is nearly as unlikely to occur as a massive meteor striking the earth in our lifetime. The sky is not falling.   

Just for clarity,  I began by simply relaying a question that was asked of me at a match, by a shooter waiting in line to get to the Loading Table.  About halfway through this multiple diagogue, I thanked everyone for giving helpful answers.   I had what I needed at that point--or I thought so.  That could have concluded it, and possibly should have. 

 

But folks,  including me, have had some fun extending the topic here, even to meteorites, and I don't see a problem with that.  If we're having fun, then let 'er rip.  A rule change could easily clarify all of this, but then we wouldn't have so much fun pushing it around, discussing it. 

 

When and if a shooter shadow shoots a stage and I'm the TO, it's a no call, unless some other rule is violated.  And if they ask permission, "Sure, go ahead, but don't drop your pistol-- and shadow misses count" will be my response.  Simple enough.

Safe fun is what this should be about--right? 

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