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Question came up - - WTC?


Dusty Devil Dale

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Today I was asked, by a shooter (off the firing line) if at the time of staging firearms and off-the-clock, they could draw a revolver uncocked, and test point it at targets downrange to get a sense of sight image and best target shooting order, then return it to leather. 

I have not ever seen it done, but I was unaware of any rule prohibiting it.  So I responded affirmatively, but with warnings: 1) the revolver must remain uncocked, with the hammer down on an empty chamber, 2) the 170 rule must be adhered to, and 3) obviously, if they drop the loaded firearm, they would receive a MDQ. 

 

I'm aware of no rule preventing an uncocked and safe (by definition) revolver being drawn, then returned to leather and leaving the shooter's hand-- either on-  or off-clock.  

Was that correct guidance? 

The same question could arise regarding a rifle.  Can the shooter test point any firearm, in staging guns or preparing to declare themselves ready? 

 

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Short answer, No.

all of the ranges I shoot at have the loading and unloading tables set back from the firing line.  There’s a lot of activity at and close to the line, shooter, to, spotters, brass pickers.  If you’re pointing a firearm at the targets you’re sweeping many people.  Again, don’t do it!

 

Gringo

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28 minutes ago, El diablo gringo said:

If you’re pointing a firearm at the targets you’re sweeping many people.

 

In my view, the question is to test point guns at the firing line, before "ready" and after the range is declared hot. (Just the question was raised off the firing line)

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16 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

No no no. That's why you aren't seeing people doing it. 

 

But based on what clause of the SHB?

 

One could test point at the target for different reasons, a very tall or short competitor could check if (s)he can properly shoot through a window etc. without safety issues.

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I'm going to throw a little gas on the fire here.

 

While I have never seen some do it with pistols, I regularly see people do it with the rifle. Heck I do it ever time I have to start port arms. 

 

Just saying......

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I would say the best time to do this , if absolutely necessary, is after stage instructions and before any loading/shooting occurs. And under the supervision of the R.O. I could see needing this for a particularly short or otherwise "challenged" shooter.

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Just imagine the time to shoot a stage if everyone in the Posse practiced aiming before saying the starting line.

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6 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Why does one need a sight picture on a 24 x 24 targets that's 4 yards away?

Why does one miss 24 x 24 targets that are only 4 yards away?

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2 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

In my view, the question is to test point guns at the firing line, before "ready" and after the range is declared hot. (Just the question was raised off the firing line)

Correct.  It was just a question from a shooter, wondering why it isn't ever done. 

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Very thoughtful responses so far! 

Thank you all. 

Take-home msg so far is that it's probably a bad idea, but it is not unsafe if done carefully on a declared hot range, and it is not specifically prohibited.  I sure couldn't find any written prohibition.  (I know my own problem in doing it would be this irresistible urge to errantly cock the pistol.  And that would consume everyone's time-having to de-cock under supervision) 

 

I agree it could be a time issue in trying to move a big posse along through stages, particularly with other posses following, or trying to. 

Thx everyone.   

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Very thoughtful responses so far! 

Thank you all. 

Take-home msg so far is that it's probably a bad idea, but it is not unsafe if done carefully on a declared hot range, and it is not specifically prohibited.  I sure couldn't find any written prohibition.  

 

I agree it could be a time issue in trying to move a big posse along through stages, particularly with other posses following, or trying to. 

Thx everyone.   

Bingo. Correct answer!

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Unless you are real newbie, seems you would already be used to the sight picture on your guns.?

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Newbie, veteran... whatever, doesn't matter!

 

Let them take their few seconds.

 

How many of you bitch when someone takes the time to precisely position their long guns so as to not be out of position by .125"...??

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15 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Unless you are real newbie, seems you would already be used to the sight picture on your guns.?

 

...if it's a standard situation.

Maybe one has to switch to a backup gun the next stage which has a different stock or sights.

Or I remember when we were shooting first time indoors that season with artificial light and a shooter found out during the first stage that his stainless steel revolvers were a bad choice. Well, he couldn't have changed that issue but at least would have been aware before shooting.

 

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As long as they are just getting a sight picture and not shadow shooting the stage I see no problem. Many times I've had cowboy shooters ask to get a sight picture with their long guns and in WB I've been asked on several occasions to do so with the 1911. Whatever makes the shooter comfortable without eating up a lot of time is no concern to me. As Phantom mentioned, if time is the concern, look at folks making minute adjustments to their long guns prior to the start of the stage.

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First as has been said, there is no rule against "shadow" shooting or getting a sight picture.

Second the shooter has been called to the line meaning the spotters, brass pickers are out of the way and the shooter is cleared to stage guns, dance, shadow shoot or adjust his long guns for 10 minutes, whatever.

3rd if the shooter does this they own whatever oh crap moment they create, 170, dropped, cocked etc. And as was mentioned the hammer is in the way of seeing the front sight so...

Shooters do this with their rifles all the time so.....

Ike

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28 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

And as was mentioned the hammer is in the way of seeing the front sight so...

If you're shooting a Colt, a factory-stock old or New Vaquero, or probably others, it is true that the high hammer spur obstructs the view of the front sight when the hammer is in dropped position.  But that is not the case with Blackhawks, Bisleys, Vaqueros fitted with Blackhawk hammers, Single Sixes fitted with Bisley hammers, or many others.   Just for clarity here.  

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I’ve frequently done it with rifle, especially when shooting Cody Dixon as sometimes have to shoot under/around/through trees. Never done  it with a pistol. 

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2 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I recall something about Shadow Shooting being agin the rules, but damned if I can find it in the SHB now.

Pls correct me here if I misspeak. 

I looked and looked, but found only crickets chirping on this subject.  By the new SHB, shadow shooting on the firing line appears to be an acceptable practice.   That appears to be no change from the last two SHB versions that I've looked through.  (By "shadow shooting", I'm referring to going through the motions of shooting the target array, while holding, but not actually operating any part of the firearm except the sights.) 

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23 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Pls correct me here if I misspeak. 

I looked and looked, but found only crickets chirping on this subject.  By the new SHB, shadow shooting on the firing line appears to be an acceptable practice.   That appears to be no change from the last two SHB versions that I've looked through.  (By "shadow shooting", I'm referring to going through the motions of shooting the target array, while holding, but not actually operating any part of the firearm except the sights.) 

 

 

You won't find it in the SHB going back to 2010, either (Sixteenth Edition).

 

Even when I started this game, folks talked about "shadow shooting," and how "bad" it was, but there was no rule against it.

 

There is a rule against dry firing at the LT. What we are talking about here ain't it.

 

see also:

 

Even a topic in the Chronicle in 2008 (https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/08eChron/08junechron.pdf), and it don't seem to be banned there, either.

Quote

Dear Billy, 

I have a unique problem. Because I am a gamer and like to win when I shoot, I have taken to shadow shooting. The problem is this. I know the other shooters frown upon this so I try to do it with as little fanfare as possible. But lately my secret attempts have been to no avail, receiving catcalls and hoots from the posse members. Any suggestions?  

Shadow Shooter in Oregon

 

Dear Shadow Shooter,

This is a touchy situation, and I hesitate to answer due to “Spirit of the Game” issues. First, I suggest you devise another way of “gaming” since shadow shooting is, as you said, frowned upon. But since you asked, I will not take it upon myself to judge. Lucky Bill answers all sincere questions. My suggestion will have an added benefit in that you will obtain a new talent. This should be considered if you are not shooting up to your expectations. My suggestion is simply this: find a reputable ballet school nearby. Take ballet and tap-dancing lessons. You will learn unique steps in both venues. This will allow you to perform various moves and steps that those in the posse will not recognize as shadow shooting. There could be a drawback to this, however. This is due to the fact that those watching may recognize the steps as tap or ballet, and thus the hoots and hollers may continue for a different reason. But, it is worth a try. The upside is with your new talent you will be able to explain yourself by tap-dancing around the issue! 

 

I will say, though, that, a quick web reference indicates that, although not prohibited by SASS, there are several clubs where the action is verboten.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/matamorasrodandgunclub/CAS/rules.pdf

Quote

All shooters are expected to be familiar with SASS rules. Please read The SASS ... No dry firing at the loading table; no shadow shooting at the firing line.

 

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I've done it many times and never been called on it. 

 

It's your stage to shoot, just be aware the time you are using.  Take a quick sight picture and put the gun away.

 

One of the main reasons to do it is when you have a stage with a building or porch.  Out west here we have very bright sunlight and deep shadows. Nice to know if when you pick up the rifle to shoot that the sights are either both in the shade or sun.  with stainless pistols, might like to have the pistol in the shade.

 

Also, shooting through windows with bars or curtains, good idea to stick the long gun through for a quick trial run.  Lots of reasons to go through the motions with guns in hand.  Just don't take too long to do it.

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Dry firing is addressed on Page 29 in  SHB. It's only at the loading table.

Lots of folks, on the firing line,  pull their revolvers, pick up their shotguns, rifles, and look at the sight picture, before the beeper goes off. No Call.

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You are allowed to look at your sights at the loading table.  You are allowed to lever your rifle at the loading table.  You are not allowed to look at your sights and run your lever at the same time at the loading table.  There is no rule concerning shadow shooting at the firing line before you shoot.  Just do not take up so much time it could hold up the posse.  It has never been a concern of mine since I have been shooting.  If you are questioning something in your head, answer it.  Just be thoughtful of the other shooters.  

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Since it has been traditionally not allowed or at least frowned upon why not make an announcement at the shooters meeting that it is allowed at your match. This way everyone is aware and can take advantage, with a clear conscious, if they choose to do so.

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19 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Since it has been traditionally not allowed or at least frowned upon why not make an announcement at the shooters meeting that it is allowed at your match. This way everyone is aware and can take advantage, with a clear conscious, if they choose to do so.

Since it IS legal to do so, how 'bout if your range has a local rule that you can't that you announce THAT if you desire. If we made announcements about everything you CAN do we're never have time to actually shoot!:D

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I "shadow shoot" every stage while at the loading table after I'm loaded up. This helps me get the rhythm down and doesn't take up unnecessary time on the line. I dont have to actually have the firearm in my hand to do it. When I'm on the line, if I can see the target from where Im standing, then I can shoot the target from where I'm standing. That being said, everyone pays their entry fee like I do. Its THEIR time when they're getting ready to shoot a stage. I don't care if they do a jig as their preshoot routine. I dont rush them. Now, some shooters routinely restart 3 or 4 times per stage and that gets old as heck.

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