El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 46 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: Of course this is for real. Gunfights were/ are much more likely to occur at arm's length... Across the card table... The length of the saloon bar... The Wild Bill Hickok - Tutt meet in the street, carefully aimed 70 yard gunfight is an aberration, if not an outright fallacy. In a timed event, most (not all) shooters want to emulate the quick and dirty gunfights of their imagination and movies. Think cowboy John Wick. For most; there is less excitement (in a timed event) about long range target shooting. Oh come on, Creeker. We aren't simulating real gunfights. I have been a student of western history most of my life and I don't remember ever reading about a gunfight where anyone, let alone everyone, had a rifle, two pistols, and a shotgun. If your goal is to make a match that folks really enjoy, then say that. But let's not pretend that you are trying to simulate real old west gun fights. Unless you want to make most of the matches shooting folks in the back. I'm not saying that it has to be historically accurate, as I believe there is a game (NCOWS) for that already. But as for shooting as fast as possible, isn't there already a game for that too (Cowboy Fastdraw)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Actual distances? I have no idea, closer than some, farther than others, set them up and I'll do my best to shoot them. As to any differences between normal monthly matches and a club annual, I am of the opinion that at an annual targets should be a touch closer than normal. Most folks like to feel like they did well at a shoot they spent a fair amount of money to go to, moving targets in a bit can help provide that. Doesn't guarantee it though. There is no target too big or too close to miss. Now state and above championship matches I can understand the mindset to add a bit of challenge to the mix. IMO the top shooters are going to be the top shooters pretty much no matter where the targets are, close or a bit farther. The difference comes in with the middle of the pack shooters. Those used to big and close are going to struggle with targets a bit farther out, while those used to farther out targets will shine on those stages. I think a variety of sizes, layouts, and distances within reason it the best way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Bob Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 Just a reminder - the OP asked: All I want to know is what distances clubs are typically setting rifle, pistol and shotgun targets at for: a - monthly matches b- annual matches We all know the SASS recommended distances. My interest is to get an overall idea of what actual practices are. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 27 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said: Just a reminder - the OP asked: All I want to know is what distances clubs are typically setting rifle, pistol and shotgun targets at for: a - monthly matches b- annual matches We all know the SASS recommended distances. My interest is to get an overall idea of what actual practices are. thanks Dude, they're all over the map! And since we are now talking about simulating the old west gunfights, I'm going to start turning my targets facing down range... That'll best simulate the old west Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Bob Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 Thanks to you all for your input. I now turn this thread over to Phantom and the gunfight!! It’s all yours now - I got what I wanted!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said: Thanks to you all for your input. I now turn this thread over to Phantom and the gunfight!! It’s all yours now - I got what I wanted!!! Oh no you don't! I've done my hit and run post... I'm done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Bob Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 21 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Oh no you don't! I've done my hit and run post... I'm done! TOO LATE!! Get him while you can boys! He’s on the run!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugler Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 It might be too close if the muzzle touches the target................ Bugler (small attempt at humor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Buckskin Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Someone recently explained it to me this way when I asked how he set his targets at a state match. As stated above the top shooters will be fast wherever the targets are. The rest of the pack of shooters is where you want them to leave happy and satisfied and the things that make them happy are usually decent times and there clean match awards. He tries to set up the targets so about 20 percent will shoot clean and have decent times. His average pistol targets were 4 to 5 yards and the rifle were 7-10 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hells Comin Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 huh Size Matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassalong Hopidy Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 I repeatedly find myself in agreement with Creeker--really hope to meet and shoot with him one day. My experience is that shooters much prefer hitting targets to missing them. And like faster times over slower runs. So: Pistols: 4-7 yards (with occasionally longer shots on big targets that are shared R/P); Rifle: 8-12 yards (had a smallish KD at 18 yards in the State match in 2018, though, but just one shot in 10 stages), and Shotgun: 8-12 yards (with the shot pattern opening as distance lengthens, not much of an issue IMHO). Lots of ways to create variety: number of movements, target size and shape, lateral spread, vertical arrays, new or at least non-typical sequences, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Big is fast, close isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 In regards to whether monthlies are set up differently than annuals, I have to ask this question: If your monthly matches are not simular to the annual matches in your area, are you preparing your local shooters for competing well when they shoot those annual matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: In regards to whether monthlies are set up differently than annuals, I have to ask this question: If your monthly matches are not simular to the annual matches in your area, are you preparing your local shooters for competing well when they shoot those annual matches? My job as a stage writer is to never try and make anyone a better shooter... That's on them. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: My job as a stage writer is to never try and make anyone a better shooter... That's on them. Phantom I agree with you, but I think I misstated my question, so I will ask it another way. Is there something to supplying your local people with an environment more akin to bigger matches in your area than there is in presenting a match they are unlikely to be able to shoot away from that range? What is your goal if you are having them shoot odd strings at odd targets and odd distances that they won't see anywhere else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Today there are very few matches that are not cleanable regardless of target size and distance. There used to be some hokey crap that would limit the potential for a clean match and most of that stuff has gone away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: I agree with you, but I think I misstated my question, so I will ask it another way. Is there something to supplying your local people with an environment more akin to bigger matches in your area than there is in presenting a match they are unlikely to be able to shoot away from that range? What is your goal if you are having them shoot odd strings at odd targets and odd distances that they won't see anywhere else? I'm not sure how to answer your question...I set up my matches inbetween WR and EOT in target size and placement... Don't know where you got the stuff about odd strings, targets and distances. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 5 hours ago, Too Tall Bob said: Just a reminder - the OP asked: All I want to know is what distances clubs are typically setting rifle, pistol and shotgun targets at for: a - monthly matches b- annual matches We all know the SASS recommended distances. My interest is to get an overall idea of what actual practices are. thanks 13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I'm not sure how to answer your question...I set up my matches inbetween WR and EOT in target size and placement... Don't know where you got the stuff about odd strings, targets and distances. Phantom This is more of a philosophical question and not needing an answer, but, why do you set them at that distance? It sounds like it works on many different levels. My original question, however, was posted in response to the question posted in the OP and was not directed towards anything specific that you have done. to water it down some more, I wondered if there should be a reason why targets should be set differently between monthly matches and annual matches, as suggested by the OP. If folks find a recipe that works, why mess it up? Why should an annual be set up differently from a monthly if the recipe is successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 12 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: This is more of a philosophical question and not needing an answer, but, why do you set them at that distance? It sounds like it works on many different levels. My original question, however, was posted in response to the question posted in the OP and was not directed towards anything specific that you have done. to water it down some more, I wondered if there should be a reason why targets should be set differently between monthly matches and annual matches, as suggested by the OP. If folks find a recipe that works, why mess it up? Why should an annual be set up differently from a monthly if the recipe is successful? Annuals draw in folks from outside the clubs normal market area. So sometimes a club needs to make a few modifications to what they offer their local market. My philosophy is bigger and closer...with variation in height and staggering distance so that it's not just a "Side Match Speed Event". So not BIG and CLOSE and not SMALL and FAR...just bigger and closer and not all set up in a nice little row so one can zip left...or right. I like the idea that target placement can make the stages a bit more interesting then looking at a monotonous row of targets that are all the same size, distance and height. I like to step back and look at a stage and say something like...yea...that looks kinda cool. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 I shoot regularly at five different clubs. Some are closer, some are far, one is really close (though not 4 paces), and a non sass match where some rifle targets are 30-40 yards. My favorite matches are the ones that offer a variety. Really close for one stage, far for another, middle ground for a few, down range movement, etc. Variety is the spice of life. I know folks say that the fast shooters will always be the fastest regardless, but it is interesting to see how some shooters excel at some stages and others at different stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Annuals draw in folks from outside the clubs normal market area. So sometimes a club needs to make a few modifications to what they offer their local market. My philosophy is bigger and closer...with variation in height and staggering distance so that it's not just a "Side Match Speed Event". So not BIG and CLOSE and not SMALL and FAR...just bigger and closer and not all set up in a nice little row so one can zip left...or right. I like the idea that target placement can make the stages a bit more interesting then looking at a monotonous row of targets that are all the same size, distance and height. I like to step back and look at a stage and say something like...yea...that looks kinda cool. Phantom At the end of the day; our philosophy is about the same. I like the cool factor to be in the movements, the sequences, the target arrays... I don't think there is a ton of difference between 3 yards and 4 yards or 4 yards and 5 yards. But if given the choice; I'll always set them closer and let the shooter decide their pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles B. Gatewood SASS #48517 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: I agree with you, but I think I misstated my question, so I will ask it another way. Is there something to supplying your local people with an environment more akin to bigger matches in your area than there is in presenting a match they are unlikely to be able to shoot away from that range? What is your goal if you are having them shoot odd strings at odd targets and odd distances that they won't see anywhere else? Correctly applying the rules at every monthly is a good place to start. When I've written stages I have at least 2-3 that offer shooters a choice on movement, gun placement/order, sweep direction, etc. CBG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 IMO target distance is just one piece of the puzzle. If you have a set distance you use over and over you probably have room to improve on the stage setups....if you like variety. I'll set pistol targets 3 - 10 yards and rifle 4 - 20 yards......depending on the size and the stage. If you want repetition try steel challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo casey #19191 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 I like to stagger the targets up & down so they are not straight accross. Largo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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