44-40 rifle BEST lever ammo, and why?

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

12 hours ago, MacGyver125 said:

Several of y'all have mentioned black powder loads, but why would you want to use that today, when other options are available?

 

Why would anyone want to use black powder rounds when there are better options out there today? Well ask yourself why would anyone want a lever gun when there are better rifles out there today? Or a single action revolver? Or a double barrel shotgun? That's the fun in the game. As to why the 44-40 is better for black powder, the thin neck seals the chamber and keeps the action clean. 45 doesn't do that very well. I do know a few folks that anneal their 45 cases and have pretty good success, so it is possible.

 

As for all your other concerns, minus the lever spin trick which I won't get into here, I get the not reloading. I do know a few folks that buy factory ammo and don't reload yet still play this game so you don't have to reload. It can get expensive, depending on how often you shoot. Two guys I know that only use factory ammo, both shoot 45 colt. It is pricey to do it this way, but even more so if they shot 44-40, which is a lot harder to come by and generally more expensive, so all things being equal there, I would tell you to get the 45.

 

Just on a tangent here, people that say you have to reload are talking about material costs and aren't taking into consideration the time. It really depends on where you live too. In my area, wages are a little higher than in other areas. A state where you might make $20 and hour, working an hour of overtime is only $30. That's not enough to buy a box of ammo. It takes me about 1 hour to make 100 rounds. So the cost savings aren't there. But in my area, $50 an hour is pretty common, so at $75 an hour of overtime I have more than made up for the cost of 100 rounds with some change to spare. Just a thought for those that say it's impossible to play this game without reloading.

[Bull Skinner]

2 hours ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

The OP asked for advice and received lots of replies.  He doesn't seem to like any of them.

 

MacGyver125, if all you want is to know is which round performs better as a factory load, .44-40 or .45C, simply google up the various manufacturers' websites and look at their ballistic data.  You can answer your own question that way.

 

Otherwise, please let us know which range you will be at when spin-cocking your '92 so we can avoid the area.

 

 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

16 hours ago, MacGyver125 said:

Several of y'all have mentioned black powder loads, but why would you want to use that today, when other options are available?

 

There are SASS categories limited to those who shoot the smokey propellants and a small subset of CAS shooters who are dedicated to these categories.  One has to shoot this stuff to understand the pleasure we derive from competing with firearms and propellants that would be common in late 19th century.  If you want to shoot CAS with smokeless powder I will be pleased to be a range officer for you.  Wednesday at EOT I will be shooting cap and ball revolvers at EOT with real black powder and will have the most fun I can have at that match.

[Ramblin Gambler]

On 6/12/2019 at 1:45 PM, MacGyver125 said:

Ah. So Maybe I should get the 20" rifle. Why 18"? I wanted the 16" so I could one hand reload like John Wayne. 

 

 

In that case, get a 20" so you won't be tempted to try. 

15 hours ago, MacGyver125 said:

 

Exactly. John Wayne's 20" rifle was deliberately shortened to 18" or 19" so he could perform the technique without injuring himself. In later movies, he used a 16" carbine.

 

 

You sure about that?  Coulda swore I read the one he actually spin cocked was 14".  I remember wondering if the laws against short barreled rifles had been passed yet.  I can't find that info now because too many results for John Wayne commemorative rifles come up with the search.  

 

19 hours ago, Bull Skinner said:

If you are not going to reload, 38 special is best for CAS, but is too wimpy for hunting anything but rats.

 

38 special may be, but .357 out of a rifle outperforms a 30-30 out to something like 75 yards.  I think 44 mag is similar but surprisingly the performance drops off a little quicker.  I wouldn't try to use a 45 colt on deer past 50 yards.  Unless you hand load, in which case I understand you can push the performance up to 44 mag levels. 

 

On 6/12/2019 at 1:01 PM, MacGyver125 said:

I am seeking to purchase a Winchester 1892 model carbine with a large loop lever. So far I've only found it available in 45 colt and 44-40. I am interested in the 16" barrel, but can only find it NIB in 20". 

I am also aware of LeverEvolution ammo, which looks intriguing.

 

I am surprised those are the only calibers you can find.  I assume you're only interested in new guns.  Your local gunshop should be able to order whatever you want.  If not, find another gun shop.  Are you looking only at winchester or are you also considering clones? 

 

I shoot 45 colt and I don't reload either.  I have a guy at my gun club who does it for me.  You should check and see if you can even find hot 44-40 factory ammo.  45 colt selections got a lot better when the taurus judge was introduced and it became a trendy self defense round.  There hasn't been an equivalent event for 44-40. 

 

I have a rossi model 92 in 45 colt.  Leverlution rounds would not feed through it.  So I recommend only buying 1 box initially.   I had to shoot all of mine though a ruger revolver. 

 

 

[Ripsaw]

MacGyver125, what exactly do you mean by "best performance?"  You are getting pros/cons advice but without specific criteria, no way anyone can answer which gives "best performance."  Terminal energy? Muzzle velocity? Accuracy? Least cost per round? Most/least recoil? etc...

[MacGyver125]

17 hours ago, Captain Clark said:

Much of todays 'factory" 44-40 ammo is downloaded to very low power levels due to the vast number of old / antique firearms still being used.

Ah. That makes sense. Too bad they don't have normal load factory ammo since Winchester, and possibly other companies, still produce 44-40 rifles. 

[MacGyver125]

10 hours ago, Hillbilly Drifter said:

MacGyver125 you probably picked the wrong group to ask these questions. (based on your response to the answers you have been given here).

Why do you say that?

 

10 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Found 5 in 44 Magnum on Gunbroker in less than 30 seconds

Wow. I've been checking almost daily for months! Are you saying you found 5 Winchester 1892 NIB carbines with a large loop lever??? I've only found 2 in the last 6 months. One in 45 colt and one in 44-40. Both with 20" barrel. 

10 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Let me clear things up...….I do the spin cocking as a parlor trick with an empty gun. Never done it with live ammo. I'm kinda' old school about muzzle control with live ammo. 

Well, as all things on the internet, it's easy to have a miscommunication, which I've done. I DON'T intend to do the spin with live ammo. I commented that the shorter barrel was needed to about whacking myself, and I commented that a lever rifle can't shoot while the lever is open, so I can see how the second part made y'all think I intended to do it with live ammo. However, I ALSO said "field rules apply", which means the rifle must always be pointed down range at all times. Sorry for the miscommunication. 

 

9 hours ago, July Smith said:

but SASS is all about having fun and to me black powder = big fun. 

That's what I mean. What makes black powder better?

8 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I have never had a factory service rep ask that-They have asked what type ammo I was using

 

How many SASS events have you attended so far?

I have at least twice. When I called about my Chiappa, for example, they wanted to know which brand. If I had been using ANYTHING in it except LeverEvolution ammo, they said they would have just told me to use LeverEvolution ammo, but since that's what I was using, they asked me to send it in for their gunsmiths to look at it. 

 

I haven't been to one yet 

7 hours ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

The OP asked for advice and received lots of replies.  He doesn't seem to like any of them.

 

MacGyver125, if all you want is to know is which round performs better as a factory load, .44-40 or .45C, simply google up the various manufacturers' websites and look at their ballistic data.  You can answer your own question that way.

 

Otherwise, please let us know which range you will be at when spin-cocking your '92 so we can avoid the area.

It's not that, I just didn't communicate very well what I was asking and wasn't specific enough. It happens. Once or twice in the past I've had to delete threads and start over cause my question got detailed by other things ... For example, large loop reloading. I should have either left that part out, or made it clear that I wasn't planning to do it with a loaded rifle. I've been shooting most of my life. I know ALL fields have strict rules about keeping the weapon pointed down range. 

7 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Go to events, talk to folks, see what they're doing. Chances are, you'll change some of your desires for what you want.

Thanks! I will. 

7 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

If you're set on a '92 in 44-40 or 45 Colt, you will be able to find one and factory ammo, if you are patient. Not cheap, but available.

I'm not, it's just the only two calibers I've found this specific rifle in. I'd prefer 357, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards atm. 

[MacGyver125]

5 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Why would anyone want to use black powder rounds when there are better options out there today? 

 

Two guys I know that only use factory ammo, both shoot 45 colt. It is pricey to do it this way, but even more so if they shot 44-40, which is a lot harder to come by and generally more expensive, so all things being equal there, I would tell you to get the 45.

 

Just on a tangent here, people that say you have to reload are talking about material costs and aren't taking into consideration the time. It really depends on where you live too. In my area, wages are a little higher than in other areas. A state where you might make $20 and hour, working an hour of overtime is only $30. That's not enough to buy a box of ammo. It takes me about 1 hour to make 100 rounds. So the cost savings aren't there. But in my area, $50 an hour is pretty common, so at $75 an hour of overtime I have more than made up for the cost of 100 rounds with some change to spare. Just a thought for those that say it's impossible to play this game without reloading.

I just meant I was surprised people would reload cartridges with black powder, and was wondering why? What is better about it vs other powders?

 

Thanks.  Couple others pointed out that 44-40 factory ammo isn't as effective as 45 ammo, die to being designed for antiques.

 

Yes, that's EXACTLY how I feel. My time is worth more than my money. I'd happily pay 3-4x as much for ammo if I don't have to make it, and I'd happily pay 10x as much for ammo if it came from a manufacturer. 

 

4 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

There are SASS categories limited to those who shoot the smokey propellants and a small subset of CAS shooters who are dedicated to these categories.  One has to shoot this stuff to understand the pleasure we derive from competing with firearms and propellants that would be common in late 19th century.  If you want to shoot CAS with smokeless powder I will be pleased to be a range officer for you.  Wednesday at EOT I will be shooting cap and ball revolvers at EOT with real black powder and will have the most fun I can have at that match.

Ah. So the black powder rounds are just for specific events?

2 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

You sure about that?  Coulda swore I read the one he actually spin cocked was 14". 

 

38 special may be, but .357 out of a rifle outperforms a 30-30 out to something like 75 yards.  

 

I am surprised those are the only calibers you can find.  I assume you're only interested in new guns.  Your local gunshop should be able to order whatever you want.  If not, find another gun shop.  Are you looking only at winchester or are you also considering clones? 

 

I shoot 45 colt and I don't reload either.  I have a guy at my gun club who does it for me.  You should check and see if you can even find hot 44-40 factory ammo.  

I'm not 100% sure that his shorter rifle was 16". I am certain that his longer one was originally a 20" that was shortened by an inch or two. 

 

I'd prefer a 357 if I can find it. I'd like to use only the one ammo type. Unfortunately, one of the revolvers I want is only manufactured in 45 colt, so I'm gonna have at least two anmo types either way. 

 

Yep, for this specific rifle, I want a NIB one. I'd be surprised if a used one was available considering it JUST came out two or three months ago. 

This is the rifle I want:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-1892/model-1892-current-products/model-1892-large-loop-carbine.html

Although I'd prefer a 16" rifle, it was pointed out to me in this thread that I'd need at least an 18" so it can hold 10 rounds.

And no, I'm only interested in Winchesters for lever action. I saw a Rossi of this for $450, but I'd still rather pay the $1200-1400 for the real thing. I've held several brands, and none of them feel as good or as smooth to me as the Winchesters. 

 

Good idea! Maybe I can find normal 44-40 loads somewhere. Does 44-40 run cleaner period? Or is black powder the only ammo type where it makes any difference?

 

42 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

MacGyver125, what exactly do you mean by "best performance?"  You are getting pros/cons advice but without specific criteria, no way anyone can answer which gives "best performance."  Terminal energy? Muzzle velocity? Accuracy? Least cost per round? Most/least recoil? etc...

I don't care about the cost, so I mean whatever makes it more competitive at an SASS match. I haven't been to one yet. Accuracy, re-chambering, etc. Whatever makes a difference when I'm shooting. At the range, only accuracy/precision matters, but in a competition, something else might be just as important, if not moreso. 

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

For what it is worth the 45 Colt will out perform the 44 mag if hunting is your primary concern.   In the 92 it can bump right up to the 45/70 with the right loads.  

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

11 minutes ago, MacGyver125 said:

I just meant I was surprised people would reload cartridges with black powder, and was wondering why? What is better about it vs other powders?

 

Thanks.  Couple others pointed out that 44-40 factory ammo isn't as effective as 45 ammo, die to being designed for antiques.

 

Yes, that's EXACTLY how I feel. My time is worth more than my money. I'd happily pay 3-4x as much for ammo if I don't have to make it, and I'd happily pay 10x as much for ammo if it came from a manufacturer. 

 

Ah. So the black powder rounds are just for specific events?

I'm not 100% sure that his shorter rifle was 16". I am certain that his longer one was originally a 20" that was shortened by an inch or two. 

 

I'd prefer a 357 if I can find it. I'd like to use only the one ammo type. Unfortunately, one of the revolvers I want is only manufactured in 45 colt, so I'm gonna have at least two anmo types either way. 

 

Yep, for this specific rifle, I want a NIB one. I'd be surprised if a used one was available considering it JUST came out two or three months ago. 

This is the rifle I want:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-1892/model-1892-current-products/model-1892-large-loop-carbine.html

Although I'd prefer a 16" rifle, it was pointed out to me in this thread that I'd need at least an 18" so it can hold 10 rounds.

And no, I'm only interested in Winchesters for lever action. I saw a Rossi of this for $450, but I'd still rather pay the $1200-1400 for the real thing. I've held several brands, and none of them feel as good or as smooth to me as the Winchesters. 

 

Good idea! Maybe I can find normal 44-40 loads somewhere. Does 44-40 run cleaner period? Or is black powder the only ammo type where it makes any difference?

 

I don't care about the cost, so I mean whatever makes it more competitive at an SASS match. I haven't been to one yet. Accuracy, re-chambering, etc. Whatever makes a difference when I'm shooting. At the range, only accuracy/precision matters, but in a competition, something else might be just as important, if not moreso. 

Those of us that shoot black powder do it because for us it's a lot more fun to shoot the same type of rounds out of these old guns that would have been used in the old west. I mean if we are playing a game where we dress up like cowboys, shoot the guns they shot, the next step would be the powder, yeah? No black powder rounds aren't for a special event. There are special categories in sass that require black powder rounds, though.

 

As for the rifle, that did not come out 2 or 3 months ago. The website is not always up to date, nor does it always show every product they sell. I saw one in 45 colt about 2 years ago. I wanted one in 44-40 though, so I tried hard to find one and didn't have any luck. I ended up buying an original 92 from 1912 and put a large loop lever on it to make the same gun you are looking to make. (I also have a Colt from 1927 that I put finger groove grips on as well, but that's a different topic).

 

And 44-40 ammo does run cleaner period. It's just not as important in smokeless as it is in black powder. But if you shoot a rifle in 44-40, even with smokeless, it will be cleaner than other calibers. I had a 66 in 45 colt shot with smokeless only that would get dirtier and need cleaning more often than my 73 in 44-40 that has only shot black powder. Here are some pics of my guns by the way

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP sez, when asked if he's been to a SASS match yet---"I haven't been to one yet" 

I sez-Go, and most of your questions will be answered, long before you think to ask'em. 

OLG

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP-In your 1st post, you only listed 2 calibers you were interested in.

Now you post this----

"I don't care about the cost, so I mean whatever makes it more competitive at an SASS match. I haven't been to one yet. Accuracy, re-chambering, etc. Whatever makes a difference when I'm shooting. At the range, only accuracy/precision matters, but in a competition, something else might be just as important, if not moreso."

 

With that comment. I say go with .38 Special(depending on category).........Less recoil and faster recovery for next shot.

What category are you interested in?

 

You also made this remark-

"I just meant I was surprised people would reload cartridges with black powder, and was wondering why?"

I ask this-How long have you been around 1880 era firearms, and shooting them?

OLG

[Ripsaw]

MacGyver125, there is no appreciable difference between the 44-40 and 45 Colt from a "performance" standpoint (as you've defined it) in a CAS match.   Flip a coin.  Or chose some other criterion to differentiate the cartridges. 

 

Most CAS competitors look at criteria that you've expressly excluded--cost for example, or black powder usage, or shooting category requirements, or reloading capability, for example. None of these are germane to your decision as you've stated. 

 

Therefore, either of the two will work about the same in a CAS match. Take you pick. 

 

And as already advised, go to a match before you make any decisions. 

 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

MG125, If you're set on a Win 92 pattern rifle, StevesGunz is a GREAT resource! He knows his stuff.

And Gunbroker has some .357 rifles advertised right now.

Go to some SASS shoots, talk to folks. You won't be sorry.

 

Cusz M Dutch, 45 Colt up there with a 45/70? Um, I don't think so. Maybe the hottest Cor-Bon 45 load against a Trail Boss loaded 45/70... maybe.

Can you load a 45 Colt hot for the right gun? Sure, but I can't see it close to a 45/70

[Tyrel Cody]

44WCF has killed more deer than any cartridge other than 30-30. Granted that is mostly because of longevity, but still.

Get some Winchester Super X Power Point(1190 fps) for deer hunting and then get some Magtech, Black Hills, or Cowboy Choice for use in CAS matches. 

 

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/rifle-ammo-4440

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900530044/winchester-super-x-ammunition-44-40-wcf-200-grain-power-point

 

 

I load and shoot black powder because it's absolutely the most fun. Not for everyone I know, but I highly recommend going to a match and asking someone to try it.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Look up Blackpowder Categories on page 9 of the Shooters Handbook.  There are many of them.  Regarding you wish for a big loop '92 in .357 - I quickly found one for sale in .357.  I don't recommend a big loop.  The design does not favor quick cycling of the action.  

 

Many reload to get the amount of recoil they desire and to get cartridges that will cycle reliably in their rifles.  Some rifles just prefer certain length cartridges that are unavailable commercially.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

For what it is worth the 45 Colt will out perform the 44 mag if hunting is your primary concern.   In the 92 it can bump right up to the 45/70 with the right loads.  

Please provide a link to such data?

Item one-.45 Colt doesn't use 400+ gn bullets like the .45-70 duz........

OLG

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

OK.  You guys are missing it.  All those question, arguing everything, not liking any answers.  FIGURE IT OUT and "DON'T FEED THE TROLL"   

 

Did I mention ....... "DON'T.    FEED.    THE.    TROLL"

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Please provide a link to such data?

Item one-.45 Colt doesn't use 400+ gn bullets like the .45-70 duz........

OLG

Yeah...thought that post was...uhhh...funny at best...scary at worst.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

When it comes to spin cocking, keep in mind that John Wayne was 6 foot something, and his 92 had a 14" barrel.  My own 92 with the big loop has a 17.5" barrel and I am 5'8" with proportionally shorter arms.  When I first bought it, with it UNLOADED, I tried to spin cock it, just to see if I could.  I did.  I tried again, and tore a long gash in my shirt gave myself a nasty scratch.  Thankfully, no scar, but I have not tried to spin cock again.

 

As far as performance goes, my big loop 92 is an original Winchester that someone rebarreled to .44 Magnum.   That cartridge, in factory loads, out performs both .45 Colt and .44-40.   If performance is your main criteria, see if you can get one in that caliber, they are being made.

 

My Winchester...

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

4 hours ago, MacGyver125 said:

Wow. I've been checking almost daily for months! Are you saying you found 5 Winchester 1892 NIB carbines with a large loop lever??? I've only found 2 in the last 6 months. One in 45 colt and one in 44-40. Both with 20" barrel. 

 

Levers are relatively inexpensive and can easily be swapped out or the right gunsmith can enlarge the lever loop to any size you want.

[Sedalia Dave]

4 hours ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

For what it is worth the 45 Colt will out perform the 44 mag if hunting is your primary concern.   In the 92 it can bump right up to the 45/70 with the right loads.  

 

I too would like to see that ballistic data.

 

I did the research a while back looking at ballistics data including kinetic energy and bullet drop at varying distances.  Closest to 44 Magnum you can come is 454 Casul and when all the factors are considered the 44 Magnum is superior to the 454 Casul.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I too would like to see that ballistic data.

 

I did the research a while back looking at ballistics data including kinetic energy and bullet drop at varying distances.  Closest to 44 Magnum you can come is 454 Casul and when all the factors are considered the 44 Magnum is superior to the 454 Casul.

HUH, no way with full loads.

I have both-The .454 C, out punches the .44 mag with ease........

OLG

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

10 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I too would like to see that ballistic data.

 

I did the research a while back looking at ballistics data including kinetic energy and bullet drop at varying distances.  Closest to 44 Magnum you can come is 454 Casul and when all the factors are considered the 44 Magnum is superior to the 454 Casul.

Love to see you elaborate on these factors that make the 44 Mag not just better than the 454 Casull, but superior.

 

Phantom (2 L's in Casull)

[Sedalia Dave]

Three examples with factory ammo.  The 454 Casull may have greater MV but the 44 Magnum has a better sectional density and ballistic coieficent so it retains energy longer and has less bullet drop.  When I look at hunting ammo, I consider the maximum ethical hunting range to be when the bullet drops below 1000 ftlbs of energy. In all three examples the 44 Magnum retains energy longer and has less bullet drop than the 454 Casull. Also when looking at the performance of the 44 Magnum you have to look at its performance when fired from a rifle and not a pistol. It makes a big difference.

 

 

Data 1.pdf

[Hashknife Cowboy]

There is no best, it is a matter of preference.  I really like the .45 in 205 grain and the 44-40 200 grain, loaded with BP.  I only allowed one, it be the 44-40, feeds better and no blow back.  For me it has come down to building the right load for the rifle.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Excuse me, I'm getting my gear ready to hunt elk with my 44 Mag.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

47 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Three examples with factory ammo.  The 454 Casull may have greater MV but the 44 Magnum has a better sectional density and ballistic coieficent so it retains energy longer and has less bullet drop.  When I look at hunting ammo, I consider the maximum ethical hunting range to be when the bullet drops below 1000 ftlbs of energy. In all three examples the 44 Magnum retains energy longer and has less bullet drop than the 454 Casull. Also when looking at the performance of the 44 Magnum you have to look at its performance when fired from a rifle and not a pistol. It makes a big difference.

 

 

Data 1.pdf 280.67 kB · 1 download

 

Lab data from pressure barrels. Not real world........

Not what you see in the field.

Most folks using the .454 Casull hunt with 300-350 gr bullets and never try to kill game past 100 yds.

Trust me when I say the .454C kills faster than a .44 mag or heavy loaded .45 Colt.

Also a reason why the .454C is so popular for defense in bear country, when a long-gun is not practical or convenient.

My Freedom Arms 4 3/4" bbl, .454 Casull has cron'd 325 grain LSWCGC bullets at 1520 fps. With 31 grns of H-110 and sm rifle mag primer.

Some comparison data to chew on.........Note that the .454 constantly shows about 20%-30% increase in muzzle energy over the .44 mag. ME is what kills game.

http://www.ballistics101.com/454_casull.php

 

http://www.ballistics101.com/44_magnum.php

 

The above site is a very good reference for real world data.

OLG

 

 

 

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

15 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

MG125, If you're set on a Win 92 pattern rifle, StevesGunz is a GREAT resource! He knows his stuff.

And Gunbroker has some .357 rifles advertised right now.

Go to some SASS shoots, talk to folks. You won't be sorry.

 

Cusz M Dutch, 45 Colt up there with a 45/70? Um, I don't think so. Maybe the hottest Cor-Bon 45 load against a Trail Boss loaded 45/70... maybe.

Can you load a 45 Colt hot for the right gun? Sure, but I can't see it close to a 45/70

The 44 Mag case will fit inside the 45 Colt case with room left over.   Fill that case full of H110 and you will get up into the 45/70 factory loads.  Look at the Buffalo Bore loads. 

300 grain bullet gives you    ➤   1,480 fps  --  Marlin 1894, 20-inch barrel   

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=550

 

 

300 WFN 27/H110 46,000 CUP/for 92s 2180 fps

Paco Kelly list this load on his page   http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

 

My ORV will handle this load but I did have to back off 1 grain in my Rossi 92 because of cratering of the primers.  Not fun to shoot  the above load.

  

Remington list a 405 at 1590fps in the 45/70 and the 300 at 2182.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Some people are just plain nuts...

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 minutes ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

The 44 Mag case will fit inside the 45 Colt case with room left over.   Fill that case full of H110 and you will get up into the 45/70 factory loads.  Look at the Buffalo Bore loads. 

300 grain bullet gives you    ➤   1,480 fps  --  Marlin 1894, 20-inch barrel   

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=550

 

 

300 WFN 27/H110 46,000 CUP/for 92s 2180 fps

Paco Kelly list this load on his page   http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

 

My ORV will handle this load but I did have to back off 1 grain in my Rossi 92 because of cratering of the primers.  Not fun to shoot  the above load.

  

Remington list a 405 at 1590fps in the 45/70 and the 300 at 2182.

 

 

Just cuz ya can-Doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do........

YMMV,

OLG

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Just cuz ya can-Doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do........

YMMV,

OLG

 

That is why I did back off one grain of powder

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just now, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

 

That is why I did back off one grain of powder

 

And what will happen with the next lot of powder in the summer heat? 

OLG

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Hello Darwin!? You there??

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

11 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Lab data from pressure barrels. Not real world........

Not what you see in the field.

Most folks using the .454 Casull hunt with 300-350 gr bullets and never try to kill game past 100 yds.

Trust me when I say the .454C kills faster than a .44 mag or heavy loaded .45 Colt.

Also a reason why the .454C is so popular for defense in bear country, when a long-gun is not practical or convenient.

My Freedom Arms 4 3/4" bbl, .454 Casull has cron'd 325 grain LSWCGC bullets at 1520 fps. With 31 grns of H-110 and sm rifle mag primer.

Some comparison data to chew on.........Note that the .454 constantly shows about 20%-30% increase in muzzle energy over the .44 mag. ME is what kills game.

http://www.ballistics101.com/454_casull.php

 

http://www.ballistics101.com/44_magnum.php

 

The above site is a very good reference for real world data.

OLG

 

 

 

 

I contest your premise that ME is what kills game. Blood loss or trauma/shutdown to/of the nervous system is what kills game.  I've never had any different results hunting  deer with a 30-06 than with a 30-30 other than less blood shot meat. True, larger more dangerous game require a caliber producing more momentum to achieve enough penetration to reach vitals, or to shock the nervous system. or enough enough mass to achieve improved penetration to overcome such factors as heavy bones, poor shot angles,  "Texas heart shots." But hey,  none of mine or my dads bows ever produced any speed or ME worth mentioning. Especially the recurves and old E-wheel bows. Recurves, e- wheel bows and 30-30, 30-06s kept us fed in meat growing up. Largely all we ate in meat.  I remember daddy killing 8-10 deer some years. I asked him hsi kill total on deer alone and he said he stopped counting at around 300 when I was roughly 10-12 years old. Nothing fancy or high powered about any of it. At the end of the day, dead is dead. Nothing makes one dead animal any more dead than another. I've been on tracking for deer shot with 30-30s, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 7 mag, 270's etc from poor shot placement. It does seem to me there is an efficiency in shooting heavy for caliber at a moderate velocity for that weight. Same goes for archery.

 

But, to the:

To the OP:

44-40 is BP for fun, nostalgia, the smoke, less dirty than straight wall cartridges with BP.

 

And some of the other fellas may be finding used guns. That's why they may be finding what your finding and you're not. Looks like you are looking exclusively for new large loop levers. They may be limited.

 

Simple answer is 45 Colt makes things easier and cheaper than 44-40 if you choose between the two. Don't over think things.  Get what makes you happy. If you don't want to reload fine. Who am I to try to persuade if your mind is set and you have the resources to buy factory ammo. Surely you've priced ammo and come to a reasoned conclusion there.Understand hindsight is always 20-20, and you can find pros and cons to each. But 45 Colt is cheaper and more available has decent enough factory hunting loads that produce the momentum and penetration necessary to ethically harvest game.

 

If ya really want to shoot a  14-16" carbine in SASS. Knock yourself out.  If it isn't a bother that you cant load 10, go for it. If it only holds 8 or 9, and the stage calls for 10,  load her up, shoot til empty and reload the deficit on the clock, or take the misses. This a game, a fantasy sport, competition, whatever you want it to be.