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Abilene Slim SASS 81783

Winchester 1892 bias

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1 hour ago, Trailrider #896 said:

While I can't say for certain, what was in JMB's mind, once he came up with the M1886 (c. 1885), I have little doubt that he thought of scaling down the '86 to handle the .44 WCF, even before Winchester asked him to design it. (This is NOT a comment on the use of the '92 in CC...frankly, I don't care since I don't shoot CC.)  For that matter, Browning was so prolific, that he was coming up with gun designs that Winchester bought with no intension of ever producing, just to keep the competition from getting them! :ph34r:

 

JMB also had several patents at that time from other makers, he had to work around too. ;)

OLG

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

My understanding (and others have said this) is that CC is about the Old West, and 1892 falls after that period as SASS defines it.  That's why it isn't legal for CC.  What would it take?  I don't believe the ROC has anything to say about this topic.  The ROC clarifies rules or makes rulings on WTCs, but doesn't create new rules or alter existing ones, other than the change to the rule about duelists having two pistols out at once.

 

I believe the Wild Bunch would have to allow it on the agenda and a majority of TGs would have to vote in favor.  I don't think either of those is likely to occur.

Then in what period does Frontiersman fall? Is that not the old west? In that category, one can shoot any SASS legal long gun except a '97. The conundrum for me is the firearm restrictions, particularly for long guns that seem arbitrary and contradictory.

 

I've shot a lot of Frontiersman over the years and have recently been shooting CC. It's the contrast of long gun requirements between the two that got me scratching my head. Just thought this would be an interesting topic for discussion.

 

So far it has been. I appreciate the replies.  :) 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

 

There, I fixed it for both of y'all

 

In order:

 

1. 1873

2. 1866

3. 1860

4. 1894 Marlin

5. 1892 

6. Lightning

7. 1894 Winchester

8. Burgess

9. Spencer

.

.

.

9999999999999999999999999. Henry Big Boy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, if we're gonna rank what the best rifles for CAS shooting are, then I think there will be some variation in the lists, because not everyone will have shot all the available rifles.   

 

So...   Going purely on what I have actually used in a main match, I'd have to rate them as follows...

 

1.   Lighting.  (It's the only rifle I've ever shot a clean match with.)

2.  Winchester 73 and '66.

     These two are in a virtual tie being that they are essentially the same rifle with only some very minor differences.

3.  Winchester '92.

4.  Henry (1860)  I drop this one down below the 92 because even though the action is the same at the 73 and 66, the way you load it is slightly cumbersome. 

5.  Spencer  It only holds 7 rounds, so that's a severe handicap.   So it is the way the action works.   But the coolness factor keeps it from the very bottom.

6.  Henry Big Boy.  Only used one once as a borrowed gun.  To be fair, it worked okay and didn't give me any mechanical problems.  But being a southpaw I did not like the hot gasses on my right wrist as I worked the action.

 

I have have never fired, let alone used, any Marlins, so I can not offer an honest opinion of them.  I do suspect that they would rank, for me, just above the Henry Big Boy due to their side ejection.

 

I do own a couple of Winchester 94's, but they are not in main match calibers, so I can not comment on their suitability.   

 

For things like the Burgess, and other more obscure vintage guns, don't own any, so again, I can't comment.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Then in what period does Frontiersman fall? Is that not the old west? In that category, one can shoot any SASS legal long gun except a '97. The conundrum for me is the firearm restrictions, particularly for long guns that seem arbitrary and contradictory.

 

I've shot a lot of Frontiersman over the years and have recently been shooting CC. It's the contrast of long gun requirements between the two that got me scratching my head. Just thought this would be an interesting topic for discussion.

 

So far it has been. I appreciate the replies.  :) 

 

 

I can't say if Frontiersman is about a period, it seems more about percussion revolvers and black powder to me.  It does seem a bit odd that an 1892 is OK for Frontiersman and not for CC.

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Aaaaand...you can shoot non-hammered SxS in Frontiersman...

 

Why????

 

Cuz that's the way the designers/organizers/etc of SASS wanted it.

 

It's not 100% historical...nor accurate...nor whatever.

 

What is it???

 

IS

 

It is what it is...

 

Just go out to a match and try and have fun...

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)

Sounds like my parents. "Because I said so, that's why."  Never answered my question then, nor now, but that's the way it is.

 

BTW, I don't try to have fun, I am having fun.  :P

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

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Just now, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Sounds like my parents. "Because I said so, that's why."  Never answered my question then, nor now, but that's the way it is.

 

BTW, I don't try to have fun, I am having fun.  :P

Think about what you just said. A game where a group of folks designed rules that state how things are to be...and therefore essentially saying "because I said so".

 

What do you want????

 

For folks to say gee, we've never thought about adding the 92 to CC?

 

There is no historical reason... No safety reason... No bias...ugh!!

 

Do you have any idea how many changes could be made based individual wishes??? So where would YOU draw the line? And yes, a line would have to be drawn somewhere.

 

Phantom

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36 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Sounds like my parents. "Because I said so, that's why."  Never answered my question then, nor now, but that's the way it is.

 

BTW, I don't try to have fun, I am having fun.  :P

Personally, I think you are just getting too wrapped up in the category name. What does it matter if you dress classic cowboy and use a 92 in a category that doesn't have restrictions? Or perhaps you can ask your local MD if you can shoot CC with a 92. Local matches have that ability. And none of the local matches I shoot at have category awards anyway, so what does the name matter? I guess I am confused as to the purpose of wanting the change. And like I said before, I am all for questioning the rules and making changes, many much needed. This one just seems like looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

26 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Think about what you just said. A game where a group of folks designed rules that state how things are to be...and therefore essentially saying "because I said so".

 

What do you want????

 

For folks to say gee, we've never thought about adding the 92 to CC?

 

There is no historical reason... No safety reason... No bias...ugh!!

 

Do you have any idea how many changes could be made based individual wishes??? So where would YOU draw the line? And yes, a line would have to be drawn somewhere.

 

Phantom

Does it really? I know it's not sass, but a cas match I shoot at doesn't have the restrictions that sass does and the world doesn't come crashing down when we shoot it. We use stoked shotguns, 10 second misses on targets that are much further than sass (pistols are further than most sass rifle), and rifle calibers on some stages that have the targets that can handle it. Revolving carbine? Sure why not? 20 rifle targets on the stage? Just bring out that 30" barrel gun or bring two rifles to the table. Now obviously you can't do that at major matches, but not all of sass is EOT/Winter Range/Border Town/etc. There's a lot of local shooting being down and folks having fun playing the game a little differently.

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1 minute ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I still think that 10-10-5-4 would be a fun way to "variant" the game.   The 5 being shots made with a "rifle caliber" rifle.

So we would need to carry 3 long guns to the line now?

"Oh gun boy-fetch my second rifle".......... :lol:

OLG

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It's summer boys get out and shoot!

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48 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Personally, I think you are just getting too wrapped up in the category name. What does it matter if you dress classic cowboy and use a 92 in a category that doesn't have restrictions? Or perhaps you can ask your local MD if you can shoot CC with a 92. Local matches have that ability. And none of the local matches I shoot at have category awards anyway, so what does the name matter? I guess I am confused as to the purpose of wanting the change. And like I said before, I am all for questioning the rules and making changes, many much needed. This one just seems like looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

Does it really? I know it's not sass, but a cas match I shoot at doesn't have the restrictions that sass does and the world doesn't come crashing down when we shoot it. We use stoked shotguns, 10 second misses on targets that are much further than sass (pistols are further than most sass rifle), and rifle calibers on some stages that have the targets that can handle it. Revolving carbine? Sure why not? 20 rifle targets on the stage? Just bring out that 30" barrel gun or bring two rifles to the table. Now obviously you can't do that at major matches, but not all of sass is EOT/Winter Range/Border Town/etc. There's a lot of local shooting being down and folks having fun playing the game a little differently.

No limitations...no categories.

 

A sanctioning body needs rules (limitations).

 

What you do on your own (at your local club), is up to you. But mind  you, consistency regarding the rules makes for a better game IMO. Allows people to understand what to expect when traveling to other venues.

 

Phantom

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25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No limitations...no categories.

 

A sanctioning body needs rules (limitations).

 

What you do on your own (at your local club), is up to you. But mind  you, consistency regarding the rules makes for a better game IMO. Allows people to understand what to expect when traveling to other venues.

 

Phantom

Yep, I doubt I’d stay for a match that didn’t have many rules. When I travel from club to club I expect some form of order. We had a club out here about 8 miles from my casa and I shot there about once a year because they put the pistol targets out where the rifle should be and the rifle targets out where you’d almost need telescopic sights to compete. They ain’t around anymore because nobody showed up at their matches. When I first started shooting there back in 2007 there were 75-80 shooters every match but as folks gravitated towards bigger, closer and faster stages they lost interest in matches that did not evolve. Like it or not, IMHO, the game has changed and bigger, closer  and faster is what folks want. If traffic weren’t so bad coming home I’d be shooting Cajon twice a month because it is a fun match with all of the above and it is packed the second and fourth Saturdays. 

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22 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Except if you allow the 1887 lever shotgun, shouldn't you allow the 1883 Burgess :ph34r:

And the 1884 Colt Lightning.

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56 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No limitations...no categories.

 

A sanctioning body needs rules (limitations).

 

What you do on your own (at your local club), is up to you. But mind  you, consistency regarding the rules makes for a better game IMO. Allows people to understand what to expect when traveling to other venues.

 

Phantom

As I said, it’s non sass and not an advertised match. Everyone going knows what to expect. Any new folks are most likely brought in by another shooter and is told what to expect. I also shouldn’t say there are no rules or limitations. Just that the rules are much looser than sass rules. 

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2 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

As I said, it’s non sass and not an advertised match. Everyone going knows what to expect. Any new folks are most likely brought in by another shooter and is told what to expect. I also shouldn’t say there are no rules or limitations. Just that the rules are much looser than sass rules. 

None of my comments and opinions are based on non-SASS events or clubs.

 

Phantom

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Everybody knows those 1892 Rifles the Duke "Spin Cocks" gotz little itty bitty short barrels ....... right??  Everybody knows you can shoot Classic Cowboy dressing as a Towny ....... right??  Everybody knows the 1892 Winchester didn't see widespread use/acceptance until after the primary periods we portray ........ right??  Everybody knows the Mauser Broomhandle should be legal in SASS ........ right????  And the Browning A-5 ????

 

PLUS ONE too PHANTOM ...... Again

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Posted (edited)

This game and the rules have evolved immensely in the last 30 years.  It’s even way different and better than when I started 10 years ago. If it wasn’t for people questioning the status quo, our game would have died a long time ago. 

 

It’s just a discussion and a GAME. The fate of western civilization isn’ hanging in the balance. Carry on. 

 

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

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4 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

This game and the rules have evolved immensely in the last 30 years.  It’s even way different and better than when I started 10 years ago. If it wasn’t for people questioning the status quo, our game would have died a long time ago. 

 

It’s just a discussion and a GAME. The fate of western civilization isn’ hanging in the balance. Carry on. 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with talking about change.

 

The problem arises when folks question rules or definitions which use some degree of arbitrariness on the part of the sanctioning body of our game...and would be counter constructive to our game to not have a level arbitrariness. 

 

Phantom

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Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

There's nothing wrong with talking about change.

 

The problem arises when folks question rules or definitions which use some degree of arbitrariness on the part of the sanctioning body of our game...and would be counter constructive to our game to not have a level arbitrariness. 

 

Phantom

Just, wow.

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1 minute ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Just, wow.

I have no idea of how to respond to this response...can ya help me out...I'm not all that schmart.

 

Phantom

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45 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

None of my comments and opinions are based on non-SASS events or clubs.

 

Phantom

Oh my mistake. I assumed when you responded to my comment about a non sass match your comments and opinions were in reflection of my post, since that’s what was quoted. My bad

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2 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Oh my mistake. I assumed when you responded to my comment about a non sass match your comments and opinions were in reflection of my post, since that’s what was quoted. My bad

This can be a very circular argument. 

 

I responded to your response to my comments which had nothing to do with non-SASS events or clubs.

 

Remember the OP was referring to a sanctioned category...where my responses had been directed at. Non-SASS events/categories/etc was interjected by others..

 

Phantom

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Cowboy Rifles ;

#1 1866

#2 1860 Henry

#3 Spencer

End Of List ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

This can be a very circular argument. 

 

I responded to your response to my comments which had nothing to do with non-SASS events or clubs.

 

Remember the OP was referring to a sanctioned category...where my responses had been directed at. Non-SASS events/categories/etc was interjected by others..

 

Phantom

Fair enough

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8 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Cowboy Rifles ;

#1 1866

#2 1860 Henry

#3 Spencer

End Of List ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

1873 ?????

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I don't like the 1873 Replicas.  Lets ban them from ALL categories. :ph34r:

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8 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I don't like the 1873 Replicas.  Lets ban them from ALL categories. :ph34r:

You're a weirdo!!! :P

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32 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I don't like the 1873 Replicas.  Lets ban them from ALL categories. :ph34r:

 

Nah.    The replicas are okay.   Just get rid of short strokes.

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2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I don't like the 1873 Replicas.  Lets ban them from ALL categories. :ph34r:

 

Great thread!  Makes Phantom the shining Star and my Hero! 

 

BUT, rather than banning 1873 replicas from all categories, why don’t we just ban CATEGORIES.

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Sorry Rye;

But I don't care for the 1873,,,, So it's a No go !!!

 

:P<_<

Jabez Cowboy

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On 6/11/2019 at 9:54 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Everybody knows those 1892 Rifles the Duke "Spin Cocks" gotz little itty bitty short barrels ....... right??  Everybody knows you can shoot Classic Cowboy dressing as a Towny ....... right??  Everybody knows the 1892 Winchester didn't see widespread use/acceptance until after the primary periods we portray ........ right??  Everybody knows the Mauser Broomhandle should be legal in SASS ........ right????  And the Browning A-5 ????

 

PLUS ONE too PHANTOM ...... Again

Everybody knows that when this “game” started, it was started with 1892 & 1894 style rifles because there weren’t a lot of 1873 rifles original or replicas, and the pistols were more Ruger Blackhawks then Colts!  So as it became more popular and vendors started to build replicas for use in this game, then rules, choices, and changes had to be decided.  Now all of a sudden we seem to not be open to change adaption or new styles. Everyone remember that this is a game in which (IMHO) most of the participants aren’t interested in winning the 1st place in whatever category they shoot!  If that was the case gun ranges across the country would be offering classes and dedicated nights to Cowboy Action Shooting!  The important factor to the success of our game is the fact that we can dress up, walk around healed and actually shoot the guns we have either grown up seeing shot in Westerns, or in history books or look like they could be and want to be shot. Variety is the spice of life and possibly our sport?

Think about it!

 

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