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Abilene Slim SASS 81783

Winchester 1892 bias

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Our game is based entirely on Hollywood westerns. The Win '92 is by far the most prolific lever action rifle ever used in Hollywood. John Wayne's "Stagecoach" and "The Searchers" are testament to that fact. After 10 years of CAS, I still don't understand why this magnificent rifle is excluded from Classic Cowboy. I've no problem with the caliber requirements, but this seems senseless.  What would it take for the ROC to make this rifle acceptable within current caliber requirements for CC?

 

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No...it's not totally based on Hollywood Westerns.

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Posted (edited)

Ok so totally/entirely might not be the correct term. But without getting lawyer-esque, it is integral to our game. As has been said repeatedly on this forum, we aren't re-enactors.

 

The question still remains. Why is this gun excluded and what would it take to make an accommodation for a classic and iconic western firearm?

 

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

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1 minute ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Ok so totally/entirely might not be the correct term. But without getting lawyer-esque, it is integral to our game. As has been said repeatedly on this forum, we aren't re-enactors.

 

The question still remains. Why is this gun excluded and what would it take to make an accommodation for a classic western firearm?

Outside of B-Western, Hollywood interpretation plays a small role in our game. 

 

I for one would be against letting the 92 into CC as I feel CC is trying to portray an earlier time. And no, I'm not going to suggest it be turned into a BP category.

 

Phantom

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Phantom, I respect your opinion. This is the kind of dialogue I'm looking for. :)

 

What say the rest of you?

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783
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Classic Cowboy to me is exactly that. Playing cowboy during its heyday which ended with the open range days in the late 1880's. Which of course by definition is before the 1892 was even a thought in John Browning's mind. That's why it's the rifle of choice in B Western.

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Why does CC need another rifle option? 

 

I'm with Phantom, when I think CC I think 1873, the gun that won the west; not a slender lightweight 92'.

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By the time it came around the heyday was sunset. I think the current year cut off they have is just about perfect for what I think of as a "classic" cowboy

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14 minutes ago, El Cubano said:

By the time it came around the heyday was sunset. I think the current year cut off they have is just about perfect for what I think of as a "classic" cowboy

 

Except if you allow the 1887 lever shotgun, shouldn't you allow the 1883 Burgess :ph34r:

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The Bisley was introduced by Colt in 1894 and it’s allowed in CC.

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2 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

The Bisley was introduced by Colt in 1894 and it’s allowed in CC.

When were rugers introduced? Aren’t they allowed in CC?

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6 hours ago, Bull Skinner said:

Classic Cowboy to me is exactly that. Playing cowboy during its heyday which ended with the open range days in the late 1880's. Which of course by definition is before the 1892 was even a thought in John Browning's mind. That's why it's the rifle of choice in B Western.

+1, well said

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I am a long standing supporter of the 92.

IMHO its the best lever rifle out there .

But CC is based on a earlier time pre 1892 .

There are so many categories already to choose from .

No need to make any changes to CC to allow for the 92.

Just sayin .

Rooster    

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9 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No...it's not totally based on Hollywood Westerns.

+ 10000000000000

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The 1892 and Colt SAAs were used in Civil war era movies before they started to use more period correct firearms. Speaking of 1892's, it's not like they shoot faster than an 1873 and would actually be more of a penalty to use in CC.

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51 minutes ago, Go West said:

The 1892 and Colt SAAs were used in Civil war era movies before they started to use more period correct firearms. Speaking of 1892's, it's not like they shoot faster than an 1873 and would actually be more of a penalty to use in CC.

What "they" used in movies is irrelevant. 

 

It's not about how fast a gun can be shot  - that should ever be used to determine its usage in a category. The only way to keep CC and BW from becoming nothing more than a costume category is to maintain some restrictions on the firearms used and shooting style. Therefore a line has to be drawn somewhere... Your pet gun may be excluded.

 

Life goes on...

 

Phantom

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PLUS ONE too PHANTOM   :D

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10 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Except if you allow the 1887 lever shotgun, shouldn't you allow the 1883 Burgess :ph34r:

I'd be fine with that as it's in the right era

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You can always compete in your age group, shoot your '92 and dress any way your pea pickin' heart desires.

If you dilute the costume catagorys too much, they loose their reason to be.

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3 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

 

IMHO its the second best lever rifle out there .

Just sayin .

Rooster    

 

There-I fix'd it for you. :lol:

Marlin 94 is still King...........:P

OLG

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Posted (edited)

Just for this discussion...

 

Seems like I have seen some old pictures in I believe the book 'I See By Your Outfit', a book about Cowboys in Montana in the late 1890s, where in at least a couple photos there are working cowboys on the range pictured with Colt Bisleys. I'll have to go back through that book and a few others I have searching for any photos of the '92 Winchester in those book's photos. 

 

This ain't a comment on Classic Cowboy, just hopefully a useful two cents. ;) If I can, I'll try to post pictures of anything I locate illustrating the use of the guns mentioned in this thread by real working cowboys photographed in what would still be considered the Old West. 

Edited by Dantankerous

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16 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

Just for this discussion...

 

Seems like I have seen some old pictures in I believe the book 'I See By Your Outfit', a book about Cowboys in Montana in the late 1890s, where in at least a couple photos there are working cowboys on the range pictured with Colt Bisleys. I'll have to go back through that book and a few others I have searching for any photos of the '92 Winchester in those book's photos. 

 

This ain't a comment on Classic Cowboy, just hopefully a useful two cents. ;) If I can, I'll try to post pictures of anything I locate illustrating the use of the guns mentioned in this thread by real working cowboys photographed in what would still be considered the Old West. 

But this is a game defined by rules not based on historical facts alone... So what's your point?

 

Do you think that we don't know that "cowboys" of the last decade of the 19th century didn't use Bisley Colts ... or 92's...or whatever?

 

Come on folks...

 

Phantom

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It is a game, well thought out with some very easy to follow rules. There is something for everyone that is interested. Find what fits you and have fun.

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But this is a game defined by rules not based on historical facts alone... So what's your point?

 

Historical interest. 

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Just now, Dantankerous said:

 

Historical interest. 

Well there ya go.

 

I'm sure you can find "cowboys" of the 1890's shooting all sorts of stuff... but how is that relevant to the CC category for which this thread is about?

 

Phantom

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49 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:
4 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

I am a long standing supporter of the 92.

IMHO its the 5th best lever rifle out there .

There-I fix'd it for you. :lol:

1873 is still King...........:P

OLG

 

There, I fixed it for both of y'all

 

In order:

 

1. 1873

2. 1866

3. 1860

4. 1894 Marlin

5. 1892 

6. Lightning

7. 1894 Winchester

8. Burgess

9. Spencer

.

.

.

9999999999999999999999999. Henry Big Boy

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well there ya go.

 

I'm sure you can find "cowboys" of the 1890's shooting all sorts of stuff... but how is that relevant to the CC category for which this thread is about?

 

Phantom

 

Kinda seems like it specifically addresses the topic of the '92 posed in the initial post here, does it not?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

My real question, and this is coming from a guy that doesn't feel the current rules are infallible or that there are too many categories, would be why? What would be the point of allowing the 92 into CC when it can be used in B Western. Nothing says you can't use the 40 cal and above, as well as slightly tailoring CC dress to fit into the B Western. I know most go for flashy, but I have seen some of the bare minimalist sporting what could pass for CC as well. So what's gained in allowing the 92 into CC? There really does need to be a cutoff at some point, and it was decided that the cutoff will be 1887, except for the Burgess for some reason. Or the 1883 hammerless shotguns. Or..............

Edited by El Hombre Sin Nombre

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4 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

 

Kinda seems like it specifically addresses the topic of the '92 posed in the initial post here, does it not?

 

 

As it relates to the CC category...and you know that.

 

Oy...

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51 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

 

There, I fixed it for both of y'all

 

In order:

 

1. 1894

2. 1866

3. 1860

4. 1873

5. 1892 

6. Lightning

7. 1894 Winchester

8. Burgess

9. Spencer

.

.

.

999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999. Henry Big Boy

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the laugh...........:lol:

There, I fixed your typo.........:P

OLG

 

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There are other groups that shoot CAS style shooting that are more strict on the accuracy of the types of firearms and costume requirements than SASS if that is your thing.  I like to think of Classic Cowboy as more of a "creative anachronism" for us.

 

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14 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Our game is based entirely on Hollywood westerns. The Win '92 is by far the most prolific lever action rifle ever used in Hollywood. John Wayne's "Stagecoach" and "The Searchers" are testament to that fact. After 10 years of CAS, I still don't understand why this magnificent rifle is excluded from Classic Cowboy. I've no problem with the caliber requirements, but this seems senseless.  What would it take for the ROC to make this rifle acceptable within current caliber requirements for CC?

 

My understanding (and others have said this) is that CC is about the Old West, and 1892 falls after that period as SASS defines it.  That's why it isn't legal for CC.  What would it take?  I don't believe the ROC has anything to say about this topic.  The ROC clarifies rules or makes rulings on WTCs, but doesn't create new rules or alter existing ones, other than the change to the rule about duelists having two pistols out at once.

 

I believe the Wild Bunch would have to allow it on the agenda and a majority of TGs would have to vote in favor.  I don't think either of those is likely to occur.

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That is like saying Wild Bunch replicates the movie which in of itself is full of historical inaccuracies.

 

Might have given an idea but that is as it goes, a frame work.

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13 hours ago, Bull Skinner said:

(snip)[late 1880's. Which of course by definition is before the 1892 was even a thought in John Browning's mind.

While I can't say for certain, what was in JMB's mind, once he came up with the M1886 (c. 1885), I have little doubt that he thought of scaling down the '86 to handle the .44 WCF, even before Winchester asked him to design it. (This is NOT a comment on the use of the '92 in CC...frankly, I don't care since I don't shoot CC.)  For that matter, Browning was so prolific, that he was coming up with gun designs that Winchester bought with no intension of ever producing, just to keep the competition from getting them! :ph34r:

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