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Sergeant Duroc

What's the call?

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I'm having trouble reconciling in my head something that happened today at the range.  Let me set it up for you.  The rifle was loaded with ten rounds. There were three rifle targets.  The shooter was instructed to shoot the three rifle targets in a 1-2-7 sweep starting from either direction (10 rounds).  The shooter picked up the rifle and shot 1-1-7 and restaged the gun and headed to the next gun.  When they got to the unloading table they discovered a round on the carrier.  Pretty straight-forward to assess the MSV for the round on the carrier and a miss for that round. I can't seem to get my head around why a "P" would not be called in this situation.  My goal in posting a WTC is to build my capacity as a TO to ensure I provide a fair, consistent experience for the shooters.  Typically, I learn and move forward with the new knowledge.  In this situation I am just plain stuck at the moment.  Help. 

 

 

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Where was the third round suppose to go?

 

10 sec for round on carrier

5 sec for the unfired round

10 sec for the third round hit the wrong target.

 

Done - next shooter.

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)

When this happens when you are TO, and you see the shooter move to #3 target after firing one shot on #2, the GREATEST help you could be is to holler "One More on Two".  If you can't react to be able to do that, you should at least call "One More Round" when he gets to the end of string after firing only nine shots.  Two opportunities to help the shooter avoid either all or some of the penalties were missed by whoever was TOing.

 

Yes, it's the "perfect trifecta", for a P on the order, a round not fired counted as a miss, and a live round left on carrier (minor safety).

 

The only good reason that the TO  did not call the P is that they DON'T KNOW (or remember) THE RULES!  And that is not very good, at that.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Good luck calling out for one more on two in time to save the shooter.

 

Counting rounds would have helped the shooter save 15 seconds.

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Sergeant Duroc said:

I'm having trouble reconciling in my head something that happened today at the range.  Let me set it up for you.  The rifle was loaded with ten rounds. There were three rifle targets.  The shooter was instructed to shoot the three rifle targets in a 1-2-7 sweep starting from either direction (10 rounds).  The shooter picked up the rifle and shot 1-1-7 and restaged the gun and headed to the next gun.  When they got to the unloading table they discovered a round on the carrier.  Pretty straight-forward to assess the MSV for the round on the carrier and a miss for that round. I can't seem to get my head around why a "P" would not be called in this situation.  My goal in posting a WTC is to build my capacity as a TO to ensure I provide a fair, consistent experience for the shooters.  Typically, I learn and move forward with the new knowledge.  In this situation I am just plain stuck at the moment.  Help. 

 

 

Trifecta. +25.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Trifecta. +25.

I think I said that already:lol:

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Sgt Duroc,  If you watch me next time I TO when we shoot together, I picked up a tip a few years ago to try and keep count on my fingers.  This helps me keep count during big number dump sweeps to help the shooter.  Another pro tip: get in the habit of watching for the last round to be ejected from the long guns.

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I think I would have called a P +10 and a MSV +10, but no miss. 

The P should include the miss (double jeopardy rule). 

+20 to my view. 

Thoughts? 

 

Regarding T.O. not helping out, some of you shoot so fast that intervening in the time available is near impossible.  It would be proper to call out "One more" at the end of the rifle string, as mentioned above, to save the shooter the MSV. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think I would have called a P +10 and a MSV +10, but no miss. 

The P should include the miss (double jeopardy rule). 

+20 to my view. 

Thoughts? 

 

Regarding T.O. not helping out, some of you shoot so fast that intervening in the time available is near impossible.  It would be proper to call out "One more" at the end of the rifle string, as mentioned above, to save the shooter the MSV. 

 double jeopardy does not apply here.  

He earned the P as soon as he shot the target out of order, the miss for the un fired round, and the MSV for the round on the carrier.  To avoid the miss (and the MSV) after firing 9, he could have shot (and hit) any rifle target.

Edited by Grizzly Dave
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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think I would have called a P +10 and a MSV +10, but no miss. 

The P should include the miss (double jeopardy rule). 

+20 to my view. 

Thoughts? 

 

Regarding T.O. not helping out, some of you shoot so fast that intervening in the time available is near impossible.  It would be proper to call out "One more" at the end of the rifle string, as mentioned above, to save the shooter the MSV. 

The miss is for any unfired round.

P+MSV+Unfired Round(scored as a miss).

Edited by Flying W Ramrod
Correct spelling
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What Phantom said. 

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2 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

double jeopardy does not apply here.  

He earned the P as soon as he shot the target out of order, the miss for the un fired round, and the MSV for the round on the carrier.  To avoid the miss (and the MSV) after firing 9, he could have shot (and hit) any rifle target.

I think I agree.  The fact is, as written, I confess I'm unsure what the Double Jeopardy situation really is.  Several clubs, I've shot at do not call misses corresponding to a P called for shooting the wrong target order.  But they do call a miss for a jacked out round, or an unfired round, when it corresponds to an MSV for the unfired round left in the action or carrier.  

 

Perhaps somebody can clarify or describe a Double Jeopardy situation.  By the SHB language, it really doesn't have application to errors in target order, only to shooting a gun in the wrong order or from an incorrect  position.  The description, as given, seems vague.  

Can anybody clarify ? 

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Posted (edited)

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target. 

SHB p.44

Miss – a failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate firearm type.

SHB p.44

Engaging a target "out of order" but missing it is only a MISS

HITTING targets "out of order" is a Procedural

No "Double Jeopardy" = NOT assessing both penalties for the same fired shot.

"A miss cannot cause a procedural"

 

The example I use in RO classes is:

Two rifle targets...20' apart.

Alternate with 10 shots starting on the LEFT target.

Shooter starts on the RIGHT target, but MISSES it (obviously "engaging" the wrong target).

The penalty is only a MISS for failure to HIT the target...NO "P" for engaging the wrong target.

If the shooter gets "back on track" by shooting at the RIGHT target with the 2nd shot; alternating from that point on between the two,

there is NO "P".

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add example
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8 hours ago, Sergeant Duroc said:

I'm having trouble reconciling in my head something that happened today at the range.  Let me set it up for you.  The rifle was loaded with ten rounds. There were three rifle targets.  The shooter was instructed to shoot the three rifle targets in a 1-2-7 sweep starting from either direction (10 rounds).  The shooter picked up the rifle and shot 1-1-7 and restaged the gun and headed to the next gun.  When they got to the unloading table they discovered a round on the carrier.  Pretty straight-forward to assess the MSV for the round on the carrier and a miss for that round. I can't seem to get my head around why a "P" would not be called in this situation.  My goal in posting a WTC is to build my capacity as a TO to ensure I provide a fair, consistent experience for the shooters.  Typically, I learn and move forward with the new knowledge.  In this situation I am just plain stuck at the moment.  Help. 

 

 

It is fairly simple if you look at the scenario you described.

Each round fired has a specific target it must hit. I your case.... Round 1 must bet shot at target 1, Round 2 and 3 must be shot at target 2, and rounds 3 through 10 must be shot at target 3. The procedural occurred when the shooter shot the third round and hit target 3. Since it hit the third target out of order a procedural was earned not a miss. When the 10th round was found on the carrier that earned the shooter a Minor Safety, (assuming the rifle was not the last gun used and/or it had left the shooters hand at the unloading table). The Miss the shooter earned is for the round he/she did not fire at target 3.

The earned penalties are a Procedural, a Minor safety, and a Miss for a total penalty of 25 seconds.

 

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13 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

The Miss the shooter earned is for the round he/she did not fire at target 3.

 

The miss is for the round that was not fired at anything.

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9 hours ago, Tucker McNeely said:

Sgt Duroc,  If you watch me next time I TO when we shoot together, I picked up a tip a few years ago to try and keep count on my fingers.  This helps me keep count during big number dump sweeps to help the shooter.  Another pro tip: get in the habit of watching for the last round to be ejected from the long guns.

Thanks Tucker!  I usually count in my head each time I hear the "bang"- this way I only had to learn to count to 5 and 10:).  It does help for longer dumps on targets. I wasn't the TO at the time.  I had just finished shooting and was at the unloading table watching a very fast shooter take the stage.  When the dust cleared he was called from a MSV and a miss. I just couldn't get my brain wrapped around the reasoning used for not getting the "P".  Like I said before, I just want to be a solid TO when I'm up there and work to learn/understand the rules to be fair to everyone.    

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
Posted (edited)

 My question is , shouldn't you already know the rules before you assume the responsibilities of Ro ? maybe we need a rule book written in English and not  GREEK. :FlagAm: 

Edited by Texas jack Black SASS#9362

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19 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 My question is , shouldn't you already know the rules before you assume the responsibilities of Ro ? maybe we need a rule book written in English and not  GREEK. :FlagAm: 

I see translations in English, Italian, French, German, and Czech. 

 

I don't see any in Greek.

 

https://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php

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1 hour ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 My question is , shouldn't you already know the rules before you assume the responsibilities of Ro ? maybe we need a rule book written in English and not  GREEK. :FlagAm: 

 

I think it's gotten to the point where, without a lot of study, you can't know all the rules.  However, having some documentation to refer to would mitigate that.

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Maybe I screwed up yesterday. The shooter only shot 9 rounds out of the rifle he shot the sequence 4-3-2 rather than 5-3-2 set down the open rifle with a round on the carrier. Already had his pistol out and cocked. I let him shoot the pistols then told him to go back to the rifle and shoot the last round. Considering he'd already earned a procedural and he shot the last round out, did he negate the miss and the minor safety by going back and shooting the 10th round out of the rifle?

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7 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Maybe I screwed up yesterday. The shooter only shot 9 rounds out of the rifle he shot the sequence 4-3-2 rather than 5-3-2 set down the open rifle with a round on the carrier. Already had his pistol out and cocked. I let him shoot the pistols then told him to go back to the rifle and shoot the last round. Considering he'd already earned a procedural and he shot the last round out, did he negate the miss and the minor safety by going back and shooting the 10th round out of the rifle?

He negated the miss, but the MS was earned when he shot the first round out of the pistol.

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Assuming the unfired round wasn’t in the chamber, he picked up the MSV when he fired the first pistol round.

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Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

He negated the miss, but the MS was earned when he shot the first round out of the pistol.

You’re to fast for me Jack!

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5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You’re to fast for me Jack!

 

SHB pg 42

 

Quote

Empty or live round in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded after the next firearm is fired, or if last firearm, put down on the unloading table.  

 

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16 hours ago, Sergeant Duroc said:

I'm having trouble reconciling in my head something that happened today at the range.  Let me set it up for you.  The rifle was loaded with ten rounds. There were three rifle targets.  The shooter was instructed to shoot the three rifle targets in a 1-2-7 sweep starting from either direction (10 rounds).  The shooter picked up the rifle and shot 1-1-7 and restaged the gun and headed to the next gun.  When they got to the unloading table they discovered a round on the carrier.  Pretty straight-forward to assess the MSV for the round on the carrier and a miss for that round. I can't seem to get my head around why a "P" would not be called in this situation.  My goal in posting a WTC is to build my capacity as a TO to ensure I provide a fair, consistent experience for the shooters.  Typically, I learn and move forward with the new knowledge.  In this situation I am just plain stuck at the moment.  Help. 

 

 

 

Not trying to be a smart a$$ but this should be a easy call. 

 

AO

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8 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

If the shooter gets "back on track" by shooting at the RIGHT target with the 2nd shot; alternating from that point on between the two,

there is NO "P".

This gets confusing.  Let's extend your example: 

 

Stage instruction calls for alternating ten shots, starting on Left target. 

 

Shooter starts erroneously on the right target, missing it (your scenario).  Rather than realize it and correct the order, he continues shooting in wrong order to the end of the rifle string.  He misses the first five targets, then clearly hits two, and misses the last three - - all shot out of order.  If I read you correctly, the P is not invoked until he actually hits a target out of order (his sixth shot).  So he gets eight misses (all of the shots that hit no targets) and a P.   Even though the two hits were alternated on wrong targets, they are not counted as misses, once the P is invoked.   (a P cannot cause a miss) Correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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There is always some risk in posting a "What's the call?"  My hope is to bring a question to the larger audience without ridicule or judgement.  In this situation I was not the TO, a spotter, match director, chief bottle-washer, nothing.  I was just a guy at the unloading table watching a friend shoot.  He's fast and hard to keep up with.  When he was done a call was made and verified by a guy I consider a very knowledgeable shooter.  That is where I was confused.  I believed it should have been a "P", MSV and a miss- a trifecta.  It wasn't called that way and explained in a way I did not understand.  I live by one of Covey's seven habits "Seek first to understand then be understood".  Rather than argue my position I decided to seek understanding from a larger audience.  Thanks to those that provided some clarity.  

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26 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

This gets confusing.  Let's extend your example: 

 

Stage instruction calls for alternating ten shots, starting on Left target. 

 

Shooter starts erroneously on the right target, missing it (your scenario).  Rather than realize it and correct the order, he continues shooting in wrong order to the end of the rifle string.  He misses the first five targets, then clearly hits two, and misses the last three - - all shot out of order.  If I read you correctly, the P is not invoked until he actually hits a target out of order (his sixth shot).  So he gets eight misses (all of the shots that hit no targets) and a P.   Even though the two hits were alternated on wrong targets, they are not counted as misses, once the P is invoked.   (a P cannot cause a miss) Correct?

 

Each shot in that scenario has a designated target.

The first HIT "out of order" (on the wrong target for that shot) is a "P".

Any rounds that fail to hit a target are MISSES. (by definition).

If the shooter failed to hit ALL of the targets (regardless of order of engagement) those shots would only be MISSES.

 

 

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
7 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I see translations in English, Italian, French, German, and Czech. 

 

I don't see any in Greek.

 

https://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php

 

  The rule book is meaningless if no one can understand it. Make it simple. not more confusing .:FlagAm:

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6 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 

  The rule book is meaningless if no one can understand it. Make it simple. not more confusing .:FlagAm:

 

This feels like Deja Vu.

 

Some of us don't find it that confusing.

 

Be part of the solution instead of complaining and rewrite the thing yourself. Seems like we had a newer shooter write a category guide recently that was quite excellent; maybe campaign to get that added to the SHB as a start.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Assassin said:

Maybe I screwed up yesterday. The shooter only shot 9 rounds out of the rifle he shot the sequence 4-3-2 rather than 5-3-2 set down the open rifle with a round on the carrier. Already had his pistol out and cocked. I let him shoot the pistols then told him to go back to the rifle and shoot the last round. Considering he'd already earned a procedural and he shot the last round out, did he negate the miss and the minor safety by going back and shooting the 10th round out of the rifle?

 

As others said, just the miss.  If it took more than 5 seconds to do this, it was a increase in time. 

 

Doc

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
48 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

This feels like Deja Vu.

 

Some of us don't find it that confusing.

 

Be part of the solution instead of complaining and rewrite the thing yourself. Seems like we had a newer shooter write a category guide recently that was quite excellent; maybe campaign to get that added to the SHB as a start.

 

 

 

 

I do not find it confusing I actually read it over and over again .As to rewriting it ,I would gladly sub-contract myself out to SASS for a consulting fee as they are a for profit corporation.  :FlagAm:

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1 hour ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 

  The rule book is meaningless if no one can understand it. Make it simple. not more confusing .:FlagAm:

The rule book is also meaningless if folks don't take the personal responsibility to crack open the cover and read it every now and then. 

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2 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

The rule book is meaningless if no one can understand it. Make it simple. not more confusing .

That rewriting/clarifying task may be easy enough to suggest, but it is way more difficult than it appears on the surface.  There are almost infinite scenarios to cover (witness the diverse WTC posts here), and some of them have attached safety issues that don't leave much leeway.  Then, there are numbers of shooters testing boundaries to game any weak points in what is written, to gain advantage.  So it always will boil down to on-the-spot interpretations, and appeal processes.  There are going to be differences in how we each view those events.   

 

I think the best we can do is what we are doing right here--discussing understanding gaps/differences, openly seeking responses from others, including more experienced folks, and then having an ROC in the background to chime into the discussion, and periodically review identified issues and problems, revising rules as needed. 

 

At worst, the rule ambiguities are still much less of a challenge than the difficulties of three people trying to spot and count misses, amid the structural visual limitations of many stages, the choices that shooters are given regarding gun order, and in many cases target order, and given the speed with which spotting decisions must be made.   Absent some new technology (which few of us would want) counting will probably continue to be the most difficult and the weakest link, IMHO.  

 

We all need to be patient with each other's questions here, and try to remain open and helpful to each other.  I really don't think things are very broken--otherwise, none of us would still be here and having fun. 

  

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