looking for an old .45-70 topic about not using certain ammo in an 1886 clone

[C. W. Knight # 47289L]

I recently bought a Uberti 1886 in .45-70.  I recall a topic about not using some of the new super .45-70 ammo in an 1886.  Can anybody redirect me to that thread?  Thanks, C.W.  

[Sedalia Dave]

Don't know which thread but do not shoot ammo in it that exceeds SAAMI pressures

 

Buffalo Bore is one brand of ammo that exceeds SAAMI pressure specifications.

[C. W. Knight # 47289L]

Thank you,  Dave.   I think that the discussion was at some time about Leverevolution by Hornady.  They have a couple of ballistic tip lever rounds but they travel @ 1900 ++ fps.  I don't recall if the warning was for possible recoil or rifle damage.  Thanks again for the Buffalo info.  C-U, C.W.  

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, C. W. Knight # 47289L said:

Thank you,  Dave.   I think that the discussion was at some time about Leverevolution by Hornady.  They have a couple of ballistic tip lever rounds but they travel @ 1900 ++ fps.  I don't recall if the warning was for possible recoil or rifle damage.  Thanks again for the Buffalo info.  C-U, C.W.  

 

Recoil. The Hornady Leveroution rounds pack a wallop. Ok for hunting but no fun for plinking.

The brass is shorter than traditional 45-70 brass, making then unsuitable for reloading due to a lack of data.

[Dutch Coroner]

13 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Recoil. The Hornady Leveroution rounds pack a wallop. Ok for hunting but no fun for plinking.

The brass is shorter than traditional 45-70 brass, making then unsuitable for reloading due to a lack of data.

Yes they do.  One heck of a wallop.

[Trailrider #896]

The basic M1886 design is quite rugged. I have pushed 405gr. Remington JFSP to 1730 ft/sec, using 43.0 gr. of RE7 from a rebarrelled, re-breached (using M71 breechblock and locking lugs, but, with a 19" barrel (1/4" wall thickness), but it isn't all that pleasant to shoot.  OTOH, what game on the North American continent, and maybe even in Africa, are you planning to take that would need more power than that? I know they recently have found the bones of a triceratops in suburban Denver, but I don't expect to see any live ones roaming loose around town!   I know some scientists have talked about cloning wooly mamoths, but wouldn't they be a protected species?

[Ramblin Gambler]

I think I know what you're talking about.  This post from Garrison Joe from march sums it up nicely.  There are 3 levels of modern made 45-70 ammo.  An 1886 is safe for shooting the low or medium pressure loads.  Low pressure is under 28,000 CUP, medium pressure is below 40,000 CUP, and the high pressure stuff is up to 50,000 CUP. 

 

I'm not sure about GJ's numbers below.  I've seen 18,000 elsewhere but I'm not sure where it fits in.  Maybe it's in PSI, or maybe there's a 4th 'trapdoor' pressure level.  This post came from a thread specifically about trapdoors. 

 

 

 

On 3/10/2019 at 1:45 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

"Trapdoor" means a specific rifle design by Allin with an up-swinging breechblock.  This design is quite weak; safe loads for it will never be higher than about 18,000 Copper Units of Pressure.  No one makes a trap door copy that is safe much above this low pressure limit.

 

What you mean by "modern ammo" and "trapdoor springfield" in the same sentence I have NO CLUE.   BECAUSE:

* Some modern .45-70 ammo is currently loaded so it is held to the 18,000 CUP pressure limits, and thus is safe in .45-70 trapdoor rifles in good condition. 

* Some ammo is loaded (and marked) at the pressures that are NOT safe in trapdoor rifles, but ARE safe in the Marlin 1895 and Winchester 1886 lever rifles and their clones.   

* A small amount of .45-70 ammo is loaded that is only safe in Ruger single shot #1 and #3 rifles - this will always be very clearly marked as intended only for those Ruger falling block rifles.

 

So, modern ammo is made in three varieties.  YOU HAVE TO BE SURE WHAT YOU BUY WILL BE SAFE IN YOUR RIFLE!  By reading the box you are buying.

 

It boils down to:

If you want a trapdoor with it's history and it's relatively slow loading process, then live with the low pressure SAAMI limit ammo.

 

If you want more recoil and faster velocities, you can move up to a faster operating Marlin or Winchester design lever rifle, or use the Winchester 1885 falling block.

 

If you want REAL high recoil and velocity capability, you can find a Ruger 1 or Ruger 3 (used - Ruger not chambering the .45-70 currently in these rifles).

 

You just  don't get Trapdoor design and HIGH PRESSURE capability.

 

H&R Handi rifle - can safely shoot at least the mid-pressure loads like Marlin 1894.  You won't enjoy that in a light rifle like Handi Rifle.   The H&R Buffalo Classic is heavier and will make those kind of loads nicer.  But the Buffalo Classic has a factory installed receiver sight which will not be legal for SASS events (hint - replace with a barrel mount open sight, or a tang peep sight).  NEITHER ONE IS A TRAPDOOR RIFLE.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

[C. W. Knight # 47289L]

 Thank you, Gambler.  My loading manual breaks down the .45-70 into the same three categories.  A few others commented on the recoil with some modern loadings.    C-U, C.W.   

[Major Crimes]

I own the same rifle and you will find its made by Pedersoli I will inc the link to their site with its specs below.

 

As said above I stick with loads that sit in the medium bracket but we don't have Grizzly's so I am at the lower end of that range.  One round to avoid is the PPU 405gr projectiles, they are not well crimped and I have had them pushed back into the case when cycling.

 

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_383/rifles-model-1886-lever-action-1886-sporting-rifle.html

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Pards -

The data for pressures on the three "levels" of performance I cited earlier - came directly from Lyman loading manuals, which use this upper limit for each level:

 

18,000 CUP - Trapdoor

28,000 CUP - Lever Rifles

40,000 CUP - Modern Falling Block and Bolt Actions

 

Speer is somewhat different on their pressure limits.

21,000 CUP

28,000 CUP and

35,000 CUP

 

Hornady is very "sporty" (possibly dangerously so, judged against SAAMI standards) -

24,000 CUP

35,000 CUP and

50,000 CUP

 

 

What does SAAMI call for for a maximum for "standard" loads - 28,000 CUP.   They do not recognize three levels.  Their pressure data was established mostly from 1930s manufacturer's practices, if the cartridge existed in that time period.   That would seem to fit the "Lever Action" type action, not the Trapdoor Springfield action.

 

In other words, pressure limits for the 45-70 really are "all over the MAP"   (MAP of course being Maximum Average Pressure)  

 

I follow Lyman's suggestions for loading this cartridge.  Your experience may suggest you can go hotter.  I hope your gun can handle your enthusiasm.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[Major Crimes]

Looks like the Aussies are the most enthusiastic of the lot

 

The ADI Loading Data breaks them up as 28,000, 40,000 and 50,000 (PSI/CUP is how it is printed on the web site).

[Ramblin Gambler]

On 6/11/2019 at 12:30 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Pards -

The data for pressures on the three "levels" of performance I cited earlier - came directly from Lyman loading manuals, which use this upper limit for each level:

 

18,000 CUP - Trapdoor

28,000 CUP - Lever Rifles

40,000 CUP - Modern Falling Block and Bolt Actions

 

Speer is somewhat different on their pressure limits.

21,000 CUP

28,000 CUP and

35,000 CUP

 

Hornady is very "sporty" (possibly dangerously so, judged against SAAMI standards) -

24,000 CUP

35,000 CUP and

50,000 CUP

 

 

What does SAAMI call for for a maximum for "standard" loads - 28,000 CUP.   They do not recognize three levels.  Their pressure data was established mostly from 1930s manufacturer's practices, if the cartridge existed in that time period.   That would seem to fit the "Lever Action" type action, not the Trapdoor Springfield action.

 

In other words, pressure limits for the 45-70 really are "all over the MAP"   (MAP of course being Maximum Average Pressure)  

 

I follow Lyman's suggestions for loading this cartridge.  Your experience may suggest you can go hotter.  I hope your gun can handle your enthusiasm.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Thanks for clarifying.  I do not reload, so I'm not sure what to make of all this information.  The stuff I read said the top category was only for use in ruger #1 or #3 rifles.  Are those  the "modern falling blocks or bolt actions" mentioned, or does that manual just not publish loads that can be used in so few guns? 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yes, the Ruger 1 and 3 rifles are the prime examples of "modern falling blocks".   

 

A Siamese Mauser was one commonly converted bolt action made into 45-70 chambering.   That fits in the high pressure category if in good mechanical condition.   A few semi-custom falling blocks have also been made. 

 

Uberti makes a Win 1885 falling block clone - I would not shoot it with the top pressure loads, since even though it is modern made, it is a century-old design. 

 

The Sharps design usually is in the Trapdoor category, unless made recently and the factory (or knowledgeable gunsmith) confirms it can use the "lever action" data.

 

What are you supposed to use all this information for?   When you buy ammo, make sure you understand that what you buy is no more powerful than your category of 45-70 can handle.   SAAMI has not updated pressure standards for this caliber that correspond to modern production practices, unfortunately, so you have to sort the ammo out yourself!

 

Good luck, GJ