Chicken George* Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 The stage has rifle first. A young shooter shoots all 10 rounds on their 22 rifle, opens the action and lays it down but the last empty casing did not eject. The TO tells them to clear the gun. They work the lever a few times without success and then tries to remove it by hand but still can't get it out. The shooter yells broken gun and finishes the stage. No call was given but a couple other shooters questioned it. They didn't think you could get out of a minor safety by calling a gun broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Quote Malfunctioning firearms still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the firearm is made safe. SHB p.28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Shooters declare broken guns all the time with LIVE rounds in em... no call if declared. (and safely restaged, of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Why do people not understand the basics of our game??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken George* Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 20 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: SHB p.28 That rifle continued to have the very same issue of the last round not ejecting. The shooter was able to figure out how to remove the casing by hand and did so on the rest of the stages. But some also questioned whether the shooter could just call the gun broken on each stage and not even bother trying to remove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 With a continued "broken gun" problem, the gun needs to be pulled from service until it can be remedied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 22 cal. I have to assume it was a Buckeroo/ett. So let them fire 10 stage gun safely and move on. As long as the TO knows he has a mis-functioning gun. Let them tak eit off line after the stage is shot and clear it at the ULT. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 If the shooter were to, in fact, remove the empty at the end of the shooting string every time, then I would allow them to continue. How did the gun extract the previous 9 rounds and not the 10th? Hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 22 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Why do people not understand the basics of our game??? They aren't actually reading the handbook(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said: They aren't actually reading the handbook(s)? But...what, they portray themselves as having done so. And yes, I've made mistakes, but some of these issues that come up seen pretty dang simple...ya know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 A young shooter. Good grief, I'd be happy he/she showed up. Sure wouldn't penalize them. Perhaps, they should have declared the rifle in question had some problems ejecting the last round and handed it off (open action) to someone after the shooting string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken George* Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: How did the gun extract the previous 9 rounds and not the 10th? Hmmm What was decided was that the extractor spring was weak which pushes it against the part of the carrier that ejects it. But the rounds underneath also push up and and keep it straight so it hits the ejector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 If that's a Henry, get that thing to Widder, he'll make it sing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 20 minutes ago, Assassin said: A young shooter. Good grief, I'd be happy he/she showed up. Sure wouldn't penalize them. Perhaps, they should have declared the rifle in question had some problems ejecting the last round and handed it off (open action) to someone after the shooting string. "Handing off" a malfunctioning firearm mid-stage should only be done if there is no place to safely ground it after the malfunction is declared. REF: RO2 p.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 If they are a junior shooter and able to manually extract expended .22 brass from the chamber, they're a keeper! Praise the sticktoitiveness and pat em on the back and by all means, GET THEIR RIFLE FIXED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken George* Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 I think their questioning had to do more with when it is appropriate to declare a gun malfunction. Obviously, it is necessary if live rounds are in it. The "Malfunctioning firearms still containing rounds will not warrant penalties" says rounds and so maybe they thought this was different or you shouldn't call a malfunction for empty casing. I don't know. I thought what the shooter did was fine but it got me wondering. It would have been sad if they weren't allowed to continue shooting other stages because of that small gun problem that isn't really a safety issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I agree about the expended case/shell deal, but that's another issue. Happy all was figured out. Ya gotta try to make it work and if you, the shooter, can't get it to go, call the malfunction, set it down and move on. That's where a T.O. makes their money (yeah, I wish), guiding the shooter SAFELY through the course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Not surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 6 hours ago, Chicken George* said: I think their questioning had to do more with when it is appropriate to declare a gun malfunction. Obviously, it is necessary if live rounds are in it. The "Malfunctioning firearms still containing rounds will not warrant penalties" says rounds and so maybe they thought this was different or you shouldn't call a malfunction for empty casing. I don't know. ... Quote Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include: - Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine, action, or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded. SHB p.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 There are a lot of shooters that don’t know or care about that rules. One shooter that had been shooting for several years asked me what was the penalty for a MSV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 7 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: If that's a Henry, get that thing to Widder, he'll make it sing! Actually, this particular rifle IS one I had worked on, of which I can explain WHY a last empty shell casing fails to eject. In the Henry .22, the empty brass has 'some' support from the spring strength on the Extractor AND from the the live round sitting inside the carrier. When the Extractor spring is either too weak or breaks, the last piece of empty brass will just hang in the action and not eject. My guess is that the spring tension has set too light and will need to be replaced. When I modify the Henry, I actually change out the factory super strong spring for a lighter spring. This particular instance is only the 2nd time one of these springs seem to lose its 'mo-jo'. The one in my rifle is running 5000 rounds strong. My guess the rifle owned by Chicken George hasn't even got 600 rounds and the spring has given up the ghost. The spring situation is being resolved and I think Chicken George has checked the Extractor hasn't broken. Hey Rainmaker: I think this rifle was singing until the Extractor spring decided to sing off key... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Sorry Widder, tried to give ya some props. Then ya had to go and dime yourself out. Nice! Well the one ya greased up for Capt Bill sure runs. Kid Flash is tearin' up the countryside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 9 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: If the shooter were to, in fact, remove the empty at the end of the shooting string every time, then I would allow them to continue. How did the gun extract the previous 9 rounds and not the 10th? Hmmm We have a Henry that gets that way once in a while. No idea why. Just the last round. Great rifle though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Rainmaker: You dun gud. And kind words are always welcome..... Thanks. But sometimes, even the best efforts can fall short because we rely on 'perceived' spring strength and sometimes it can come up short. Hopefully, my info might help others with similar issues, whether I have worked on their rifles or not. Mi. Slim: I have discovered basically 2 reasons why the .22 Henry fails to kick out the last round: The 1st and more notably cause is the Extractor, usually the spring strength. The 2nd is the height of the left side wall of the carrier. If the top of the wall is just a few .000's too high, the rim of an extracted cartridge will drag on it, which will cause the rim to push off the bolt face and tilt enough to lose tension under the Extractor. Therefore, no kick out on the last round. The reason it occurs on the last round is because there isn't a round in the carrier to help give any support during extraction of the empty. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken George* Posted June 4, 2019 Author Share Posted June 4, 2019 I didn't give details because no one needed to know that a Widder rifle had an EXTREMELY RARE issue and it was a very small issue. After talking to him (he knew exactly what the cause was), I cut a tiny piece of cardboard from a shotshell box and put it behind the spring and it ejects the last one fine now. That's barely anything and I don't fault him for that. Widder definitely stands behind his work and is sending me new springs. This rifle definitely sings!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 CG, As mentioned on the phone, your new springs are already packaged up and will be in the mail tomorrow. Actually, I didn't mind anyone knowing about your rifle being a Widder Soft Stroke. Lots of times, gun mods and gun modifiers will get good comments on the Wire but if something goes wrong, many are reluctant to mention names. I can understand that. But if something I worked on has an issue to arise, I don't mind talking about it on the Wire because stuff like this can help a lot of folks who might be having similar issues and hopefully, Wire conversations can help remedy their problem. Always good talking with you on the phone. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 11 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: With a continued "broken gun" problem, the gun needs to be pulled from service until it can be remedied. I agree, in spirit, but I'm unaware of anything in the Rules that specifies a limit to the number of times a gun can be declared broken within a single match, as long as it continues to malfunction. To my read, as long as it is declared to the T. O. , the shooter is not penalized. Further, I don't see where repetitively declaring this gun broken afforded any time or logistical advantage, (in the vein of SOG), and I don't see any safety issues, as long as it was declared and safely discarded, under T. O. supervision. So is this scenario really at issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Oh, I agree that if the shooter follows safety first and continues to deal with an issue and it is not an advantage for them, then by all means. But a lot of malfunctions we deal with either get worse with use or do pose a safety issue and should be dealt with sooner rather than later. I am not immune as I've had some problems as well. Dealing with three shooters guns can be a challenge and problems do come up. Widder, you have given so much to CAS that no one could ever fault you for an odd issue that cropped up. I'm impressed that you know exactly what the cause is and how to remedy the situation AND take care of the shooter by getting them the fix ASAP. You're truly a pard to ride the range with. In case anyone was wondering, I don't even personally know Widder. I know him by reputation and by his fine work and if you've spent any time on the Wire, you will know he's a stand-up guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Very helpful thread. Widder taught me something today. Some would say that ain't easy to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Quote Why do people not understand the basics of our game??? Phantom - because it is so much easier instead of doing the reading to just make a post on the Wire and wait for PaleWolf to reply .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COLORADO JACKSON Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 On 6/3/2019 at 11:27 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: But...what, they portray themselves as having done so. And yes, I've made mistakes, but some of these issues that come up seen pretty dang simple...ya know? YOU!!….Make mistakes!....certainly not!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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