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Jeb Stuart #65654

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At a shoot today, four pistol targets that are in line, with the second and fourth targets a little closer to the shooter than the first and third. Instructions, put one shot each on P1 P2 P3 then double tap P4.  Shooter (shooting duelist) shoots first four shots correctly then cocks revolver for fifth shot, but as he levels revolver, touches trigger a little to soon and misses P4, but bullet hits P3 because of target stagger.  Question is, is it just a miss because he missed target P4, or is it a procedural because he shot targets out of order.    My view is once a target is missed, whatever the bullet hits down range after that is just a miss.  Additional info, targets were not overlapping but were arranged as the right edge of each target was in line with left edge of next target.

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P, hit wrong pistol target.

 

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Hard to prove he was actually aiming at 4. I did the same thing this weekend with my rifle running hard meant to shoot a different target but didn’t move sights fast enough hit wrong target even thou it was not my intent I got a p. Do I say it’s a p you have to have gun control 

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I have seen pistol shots miss pistol targets but go down range and hit rifle target, is that also a P?   If the targets would have been arranged in a straight line with a normal amount of distance between, his shoot would not have hit the third target.

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Hitting the wrong kind of target is a miss. rifle instead of pistol. Hitting the wrong target, pistol 1 instead of pistol 2 is a P. Example if you shoot 10 rifle targets with your pistol it is 10 misses not a P'

kR

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Mr. Stuart,

 

Have you read the miss flow chart on page 40 of the SASS Shooter's Handbook?

 

You should.

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Was there a shooting position available to him where there was space between the targets, or were they overlapping? 

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Targets were over lapping, that's my point, there was not a chance for a clean miss.

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2 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

Targets were over lapping, that's my point, there was not a chance for a clean miss.

If the shooter was forced to shoot from a position where there was no chance for a clean miss, it’s just a miss. 

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7 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

Targets were over lapping, that's my point, there was not a chance for a clean miss.

you should always include that info in the opening post

 

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Really, tell the entire story, if there was no chance for a clean miss, it's just a miss.  But this omitted statement changes your entire post.  And what is the "normal amount of distance between"?

 

K

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Clarity helps in WTC posts;)

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Mr Jackalope, 

Have you read Range Officers Training Course Level II-- Poor Stage Design Elements, paragraph #5 ?   Targets should be arranged to afford a clean miss, should not be arranged as to create a "P" trap.

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Without a photo of the layout, it is hard to say.  It sounds like a Procedure Trap.  I would not call a P, if the T. O., nor if spotting, would I call a miss, if the hit on the wrong target is, in fact, in line with the correct target (see photo of one that happened to me recently - mine was the top right corner hit on the front overlapping target.  Aiming at diamond). 

 

Probably should be a No Call. 

Target Interference. 

Benefit of doubt to shooter

 

20190120_105403.thumb.jpg.8a89570838d687629d3ff48ae3a423d4.jpg

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I apologize for the not including that detail, guess I'm not as perfect as some of you on the wire.

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3 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

I apologize for the not including that detail, guess I'm not as perfect as some of you on the wire.

Please don't slap us for saying you need clarity.

 

Sounds like you could benefit from reviewing the flow chart.

 

Phantom

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8 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Without a photo of the layout, it is hard to say.  It sounds like a Procedure Trap.  I would not call a P, if the T. O., nor if spotting, would I call a miss, if the hit on the wrong target is, in fact, in line with the correct target (see photo of one that happened to me recently - mine was the top right corner hit on the front overlapping target.  Aiming at diamond). 

 

Probably should be a No Call. 

Target Interference. 

Benefit of doubt to shooter

 

20190120_105403.thumb.jpg.8a89570838d687629d3ff48ae3a423d4.jpg

Overlapping targets is not a P trap. It's poor stage setup.

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56 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

  Question is, is it just a miss because he missed target P4, or is it a procedural because he shot targets out of order.    My view is once a target is missed, whatever the bullet hits down range after that is just a miss.  Additional info, targets were not overlapping but were arranged as the right edge of each target was in line with left edge of next target.

 

35 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

Targets were over lapping, that's my point, there was not a chance for a clean miss.

:huh:??

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in this case it's a miss,,,    you can't say it's neither a P or a Miss,  

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Overlapping targets is not a P trap. It's poor stage setup.

Take a quick look at Range Officer Training Course, page 4, Poor Stage Design Elements, Para # 5.

 

Arent we saying the same thing? 

 

Quoted Section:

"Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument.  Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if al all possible and should not cause a Procedural "trap" by making it difficult to determine the shooter's intent when engaging the targets. "

 

So is the OP, or my photo, a "Range (design) Failure", therefore is shooter eligible to be offered a  reshoot?  (See SHB, p20, No Alibi/Reshoots/Restarts)

OR is it alternatively just a "No Call" ? 

 

Just asking. 

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44 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Take a quick look at Range Officer Training Course, page 4, Poor Stage Design Elements, Para # 5.

 

Arent we saying the same thing? 

 

Quoted Section:

"Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument.  Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if al all possible and should not cause a Procedural "trap" by making it difficult to determine the shooter's intent when engaging the targets. "

 

So is the OP, or my photo, a "Range (design) Failure", therefore is shooter eligible to be offered a  reshoot?  (See SHB, p20, No Alibi/Reshoots/Restarts)

OR is it alternatively just a "No Call" ? 

 

Just asking. 

Then there's the applied understanding. 

 

No reshoot.

 

We don't judge intent.

 

Phantom

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Sounds like the shooter had an AD (accidental discharge).  The fact that it hit the incorrect target gives it a P.  The targets being close doesn't change that.

 

After the fact - talk with the MD and club about stage setup.

 

BS

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2 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Sounds like the shooter had an AD (accidental discharge).  The fact that it hit the incorrect target gives it a P.  The targets being close doesn't change that.

 

After the fact - talk with the MD and club about stage setup.

 

BS

They could have gone to the MD and asked for a ruling.

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Miss

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Whats the SASS defined minimum separation, in inches, to allow a "clean miss". The guy shot the wrong target = "P"
 

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4 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Without a photo of the layout, it is hard to say.  It sounds like a Procedure Trap.  I would not call a P, if the T. O., nor if spotting, would I call a miss, if the hit on the wrong target is, in fact, in line with the correct target (see photo of one that happened to me recently - mine was the top right corner hit on the front overlapping target.  Aiming at diamond). 

 

Probably should be a No Call. 

Target Interference. 

Benefit of doubt to shooter

 

20190120_105403.thumb.jpg.8a89570838d687629d3ff48ae3a423d4.jpg

I'm questioning whether the above is poor target placement or poor shooter placement.

 

A shooter that CHOOSES to shoot from a position which creates visually overlapping targets is NOT the fault of the stage design.

 

Generally we have 4ft shooting platforms (short tables), a shooter shooting from (or taking a picture from) the far left end would get a visual picture like the above even if the targets when viewed from the center of the table were all well gapped from each other.

 

I'm assuming the targets were set as somewhat as follows:

 

.....X......X. Rifle targets

X.......X......X  Pistol/ Rifle targets

.....X......X  Pistol targets

 

......table   4 ft long

      O O O

if O represents our shooters potential positions - it's obvious the shooter may have a myriad of different angles on the array/ views of the array.

 

Choosing the wrong angle is not the stage designers fault.

 

Why would a shooter choose to offset themselves?

SG targets to the left perhaps - save a step?

Regardless, a target layout and design that allows for a clean miss from an allowable and reasonable shooting position (for example, the middle of the table) is acceptable - the match director does not have to set spaced targets for every possible shooting position.

A shooter CHOOSING to put theirself in a different position or angle accepts the outcome of their decision.

 

If a clean miss was possible from a shooting position and the targets were struck in the wrong order. 

P - next shooter.

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46 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Whats the SASS defined minimum separation, in inches, to allow a "clean miss". The guy shot the wrong target = "P"
 

More than zero<_<

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

More than zero<_<

Technically, I think it’s .452” 

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at the time it was brought before the ROC a minimum was not allowed to be set,, judgement call,,, just "if not room for a clean miss, then only a miss"

 

I was there,,, 

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45 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Technically, I think it’s .452” 

.515" for rifle targets ;)

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In the spirit of the 170° rule, I think that the minimum target spread should be denoted in milliradians. 

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4 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

In the spirit of the 170° rule, I think that the minimum target spread should be denoted in milliradians. 

Oh HELL NO!!!!!!!!

 

:wacko:

 

MOA all the WAY!!!!

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2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Generally we have 4ft shooting platforms (short tables), a shooter shooting from (or taking a picture from) the far left end would get a visual picture like the above even if the targets when viewed from the center of the table were all well gapped from each other.

Shooting position (in the photo example) was given in the stage direction as "behind the table".  The table was 22" wide.  Moving right to avoid the target overlap would be shooting out of position, and also very little right-ward movement would create overlap on the left target.  A short person had no option except to shoot overlapping targets.  There were ten pistol and rifle targets and four shotgun targets arrayed in an 11'-wide lane.  (Should have been caught and changed on the Posse leader walk-through.) 

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From the picture displayed I agree with Creeker..

Poor shooter placement not target..

If shooter took a step to the right..

it looks like ample room for a clean miss..

All in all.. Shooters error..

If ya want to call and accidental discharge..

The shooter did that.. Not target placement..

From the original OP??

The shooter shot too quick..

Shooter wasn't  on correct target when they inadvertently pulled the trigger.. 

But the shooter earned themselves a "P"

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