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Circuit Rider Jeff

LOOKING IT INTO THE HOLSTER

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I got a question the other day from a new shooter and it was a good one.

"Do you look your first pistol back into your holster or keep your eyes on the next target?

What say you cowboy nation? Gamers welcome!

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I am fairly new and run stages about average raw times 17 to 20 seconds and I look at my holster when I draw and reholster. The targets don’t move but them holsters can depending on how my body moves 

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At the end of the day it comes down to how you practice. Consistency is key to a good performance 

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38 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I prefer not to look at my leather. 

Agreed....  

If you only miss one time out of 100 - you are better served not looking.

 

If you are missing the holster one time out of 10 - you need to look them in.

 

Honest self assessment is key.

I usually look my pistols in just because any stab and re-attempt costs me time and additionally takes my focus off the stage.  

And as soon as I lose stage focus, rounds go in the dirt.

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I honestly do not know if I look them back in or not. I will try to remember to note this on my next event Saturday. I do not think that I do.

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Posted (edited)

I sort of peak them in, but then again I'm not fast.

Edited by July Smith

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I took the Long Hunter class years ago and he was big on looking it into the holster. I have done it for so long it's natural.  For me the other gun is up about the same time your head is up and the eyes focus almost instantly so way before the gun ready to fire you are looking at the target again. I can grab the rifle, shotgun or other pistol at the same time I'm looking the pistol in with my peripheral (I guess...…) they just are there. 

 

I guess the same way people are holstering by not looking...….the difference (for me) is the cost of not hitting the holster is just too high of a price vs missing the grab on the next gun. 

 

 

 

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Yep.. I look'em into the holsters:mellow:

But I don't pulling them from leather:D

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin it's like they said.. :huh:

Yer gonna do what ya practice  :blink:

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Opinions are like bu!!holes, everybody has one. Gonna be a lot of differing opinions on this one. First, a question. Do you have to look your hands into your pockets?

   It will make a little bit of difference if you shoot duelist or traditional. I shoot duelist. When I draw and begin to fire, I am getting my grip on the next pistol in the first couple of shots, so I dont have to "grab" for the next one. When I begin holstering, I look to the next target and I am also drawing the 2nd pistol and it is in play about the time my first pistol reaches the holster. Not having to look my first pistol into the holster cuts my split between pistols in less than half, so its definitely faster for me. Sometimes Ill just practice drawing and holstering. I always keep my pistols at the same spot on my body. For me it is right on my pants pockets, hence the question above. You can walk through walmart putting your hands in your pocket without looking and you wont seem any goofier than any of the other walmartians.

 

Some would argue just dont holster anything before firing the last pistol as a duelist. The reason I want to holster the first pistol is so I can get the next long gun in hand or shouldered while I'm finishing the 2nd pistol. It saves a whole draw time for the ling gun. All these savings add up. I'm not saying its always perfect because it can make you miss a last pistol shot if you lose focus. But, those will eventually go away. Just like missing your holster will go away.

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Posted (edited)

Even as a GF, I don't look.  

 

EDIT:   Even Johnny Ringo didn't look at his holster when he twirled his pistol into it (Tombstone).

;)

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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Proprioception:  the sense of how your body is arranged or moving in 3 dimensions.  When the cop makes a traffic stop and asks you to touch your finger to the tip of your nose with your eyes closed, he is testing your sense of proprioception. Like any other sense- vision, hearing, smell, taste-some folks have better senses of proprioception than others.  The worst thing to do would be to do it one way or the other just because someone one else does it that way. Fumbled guns can be damaged, result in penalties, and sometimes unsafe.  Decide, based on your own experimentation, what is best for you.

 

To answer the question, I look at mine.

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59 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Even as a GF, I don't look.  ;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

Same here, Widder.  I don't think I've looked a gun back to an OWB holster since I was in the Police Academy in '79.  IWB holster under concealment clothing is a different matter all together.

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43 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

Same here, Widder.  I don't think I've looked a gun back to an OWB holster since I was in the Police Academy in '79.  IWB holster under concealment clothing is a different matter all together.

 

IWB I've always pulled the holster, replaced the gun, then put the holster and gun back in the WB together.  

 

As far as my cowboy irons, I don't look, then again with my famine insurance, I probably couldn't see the holster half the time anyway.

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1 hour ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Proprioception:  the sense of how your body is arranged or moving in 3 dimensions.  When the cop makes a traffic stop and asks you to touch your finger to the tip of your nose with your eyes closed, he is testing your sense of proprioception. Like any other sense- vision, hearing, smell, taste-some folks have better senses of proprioception than others.  

I got a stupid question then. Why on earth would they use that as a test if some are better at it than others? They tryin to weed out the people that aint good at propriopreconception?

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I got a stupid question then. Why on earth would they use that as a test if some are better at it than others? They tryin to weed out the people that aint good at propriopreconception?

 

From Wikipedia:

 

“Proprioception is tested by American police officers using the field sobriety test to check for alcohol intoxication. The subject is required to touch his or her nose with eyes closed; people with normal proprioception may make an error of no more than 20 mm (0.79 in), while people suffering from impaired proprioception (a symptom of moderate to severe alcohol intoxication) fail this test due to difficulty locating their limbs in space relative to their noses.”

 

 

Presumably it is a quick screening test.  Failure would justify additional tests.  Any LEOs want to help?

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I do,,,

 

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Absolutely not.  If you have to look them in, or look at it to find your grip, your holsters are in the wrong spot.  Eyes ALWAYS on the target.  Every time. 

 

Those of you that know me, know that I take a scientific approach.  As a result, I've got a crap ton of data from multiple shooters to back this up. 

 

Doc

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I look.  I dropped a New Vaquero a couple years ago and broke off the front sight.  So I've looked ever since.  

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41 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

From Wikipedia:

 

“Proprioception is tested by American police officers using the field sobriety test to check for alcohol intoxication. The subject is required to touch his or her nose with eyes closed; people with normal proprioception may make an error of no more than 20 mm (0.79 in), while people suffering from impaired proprioception (a symptom of moderate to severe alcohol intoxication) fail this test due to difficulty locating their limbs in space relative to their noses.”

 

 

Presumably it is a quick screening test.  Failure would justify additional tests.  Any LEOs want to help?

J-Bar, I wasnt questioning the fact that it is used for a quick screening test. I was more referring to your liking it to seeing and hearing touching and smelling. It would be like a LEO giving someone an eye exam or hearing test to see if someone is impaired. I disagree with the basis of that comparison because with training or practice, a persons proprioception improves. You cant train to see or hear better. There are a lot of proprioceptive training exercises on the web. 

Someone commented if you can get 99 out of 100 reholsters without looking the pistol in then it makes sense to. If you mess up more than 1 out of 100 times, then you need to look it in. I say if you mess up more than 1 out of 100 times, you need to practice more.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Someone commented if you can get 99 out of 100 reholsters without looking the pistol in then it makes sense to. If you mess up more than 1 out of 100 times, then you need to look it in. I say if you mess up more than 1 out of 100 times, you need to practice more.

 

I’m not going to argue that point one way or the other.  Inherent proprioception is inherited.  If a shooter can improve it with training, terrific.  No amount of training or practice will result in every person being able to compete in the Olympics as a gymnast in floor exercises.  There are physiological limits.

 

It is still the shooter’s responsibility to decide to look at hands or targets at any given moment.

 

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Edited by J-BAR #18287

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5 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

I’m not going to argue that point one way or the other.  Inherent proprioception is inherited.  If a shooter can improve it with training, terrific.  It is still the shooter’s responsibility to decide to look at hands or targets at any given moment.

 

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

I agree totally its up to the shooter to decide what to do. Thats part of why its a sport and so many different opinions. I just wanted to point out, it can be improved if one desires. I couldnt share a link but heres a screenshot off of one of the sites. 

Screenshot_20190529-214943_Chrome.jpg

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i think i do - never consciously thinking about it but never trusting my coordination much any more , 

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Cowboy Carty is a top shooter. When I asked him, he told me that he looks is pistols into the holster. That's good enough for me. Only problem is that there is a "spare tire" that sometimes prevents me from seeing my holsters:P 

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I peak to confirm the hand is going in the right direction and as the revolver hits the leather I pick up my eyes to the target.  There's plenty of time to get eyes on target before the next firearm is used.

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9 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 

IWB I've always pulled the holster, replaced the gun, then put the holster and gun back in the WB together.  

 

 

 

My IWB holster for my G19 is a Crossbreed, hybrid leather and kydex and clips to my belt.  It stays put when I draw, and the kydex keeps the entry port open even without the gun in it.

 

Watch your'n,

 

MH

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7 hours ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

Cowboy Carty is a top shooter. When I asked him, he told me that he looks is pistols into the holster. That's good enough for me. Only problem is that there is a "spare tire" that sometimes prevents me from seeing my holsters:P 

 

Yep. I'm a "looker" too. Got the same advice from Carty.

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Posted (edited)

I just watched a video (or two) of the fastest World Champion I know of and he's looking them in. It's just a quick little nod but it's there.

 

Like others have said it's an opinion and there is no right or wrong but it won't slow you down if you do it right.....if it DOES please don't tell the feller I'm talking about (and let's delete this thread quickly) or he'll be shoot under 10 seconds for every stage...……...lol

 

Also what you do and what you think you do might not be the same thing.....I have seen that over and over on video. 

Edited by Cowboy Junky
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I've seen many misses by shooters looking at their holsters. I did it myself. Last stage, last gun, last shot...... Sometimes your timing gets out of whack and you find yourself looking at the holster before firing instead of after. It happens.

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The habit I needed to break early on was missing the 5th shot with the pistol by moving the gun/eyes too early.  Watching videos of myself, I found in my desire to speed up transitions, I would drop the last shot more frequently than desired.

 

If I am moving after the last pistol, I will look it into the holster while on the move.  But I make a conscious effort to not look the first pistol into the holster, but it still happens on occasion.

 

If starting with pistols, I do look at the pistol grip vs. the target prior to the beep.

 

Totes

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I use several sets of leather, some crossdraw and some not, so I always look at the holsters.

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There is have it.  Definitive proof.   Some of the best shooters in the world look them in, and some of the best don't.  

 

   It's purely shooters choice.   Your eyes move way faster than your hands.  

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I don't do much fast. So, my technique isn't worth much.

 

However, Paniolo Lady (Diamond Dick's widow), shoots well. She has wide mouthed holsters. It seems to me, that with those, a person would be less likely to need to look to avoid missing the holster.

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J-BAR and Tennessee Williams, you're both right. While the inherent proprioception is inherited, one's ability to improve from their base exists to varying levels. Not everyone is capable of training enough to be at the very top of this game, but everyone can improve.

 

I'm getting a bit of a kick out of the conversation because when I teach an introduction to CAS to new shooters, the first thing I do is give them the field sobriety test and I've never had anyone fail. As I tell them, "The reason you can touch your finger to your nose with your eyes closed is that you've spent your entire life picking your nose. You've practiced a lot. Now the goal is to practice gun handling movements to the point that they are as natural as picking your nose." I teach to look into the holsters, but I understand that it is possible to practice to the point that it might not be necessary for some. After all, we can stick a spoon into our mouth and stick our fingers into our ears without the ability to see either. 

 

Shooting is no different in many ways than anything else we do. When we began learning to drive, we were full-on focused on steering, accelerating, braking, and watching everything and everyone extremely closely. We were so focused on individual things that we lacked focus on the whole driving thing. We were at our most dangerous during that stage and insurance companies know this. Eventually, we drove enough that we relegated all of these things to the subconscious mind. When I went to my truck this morning, I did not have to think; open the door, get in, put the key in the ignition, place my foot on the brake, turn the key, put the shifter into reverse, release the brake, and press the accelerator. It's a good thing too. Did you notice that I didn't shut the door? Oh crap, there goes the door!

 

I advise starting out looking them in. After some practice, a shooter will begin to learn where they are and they will do everything faster. They might stop looking them in and they might just do it so fast that you won't notice without the aid of slow motion. As long as you're hitting the holster. . .you're doing it the right way. :)

 

    

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