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Sixgun Symphony #62632

Anyone been able to hit 6" target at 300yds with Hawken rifle?

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I am trying different loads and bullets to see if I can get consistent hits out to three hundred yards with a percussion rifle. It is the Investarms Model 120A, their version of the "Hawken" rifle. This rifle is .45 caliber, 1:48 twist, in a 28" length barrel. I am experimenting with 240 grain T/C Maxiball and the 250 grain Lee REAL bullets. The Maxiballs are lubed with T/C Borebutter, the Lee REAL bullets are lubed with the Lee Liquid Alox. I am using the Ox-Yoke Wonderwads to get more of a seal under the bullets and get more lubrication. I am getting 3MOA at 100yds with the Lee REAL bullets over 90gr of Goex FFFFG, on a good day. Not consistent yet, I need to work on my shooting to reduce human error. It is hard when absorbing that crescent butt when shooting at the bench, I will be acquiring a shoulder pad for that soon. 

 

Hawken.jpg

HawkenIII.jpg

HawkenIV.jpg

HawkenV.jpg

HawkenVI.jpg

Maxiball.jpg

REALII.jpg

REAL.jpg

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Good luck with that-6" @ 300 yds is just under 2 MOA.

You pretty much will need a custom built ML and have a very consistent, and disciplined fouling regimen in place.

OLG

 

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The twist is your main problem.  1 in 48 is billed as a twist that shoots round balls and maxi balls well.  In reality it's a twist that shoots both equally poorly.  You need more like a 1 in 66 or 72 for round balls and about 1 in 24 for the longer ones. 

 

At least that's what I recall.  I'm toying around with getting a new percussion rifle to use in long range matches, but it's been almost 2 decades since I actually shot one.  When I get one I'm going to get a gibbs or a parker hale. 

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It’s been along time ago,

but we used to shoot 2”-3” groups at 200 yards with a Thompson center hawken 45 cal

try 105 grains of FFF real black with the TC maxi-ball 

 

3GC

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I always shot great groups with my Hawkin .50 cal.

 

Ok not always.

 

When I first started muzzle stuffing I had a bunch of .490 balls and crappy thin wads.

Changed out the balls to .495.

That helped but the big difference came when I thickened up my wads.

Went from not able to hit paper (BIG PAPER) to hitting 3-4" groups at 200 yards off the bench.

That was pretty good for me.

 

Forgot what the twist in the barrel is.

 

Waimea

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Heck, I can't even throw one more than 20 yards or so, much less hit a small target with it

at 600 yards..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

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It's been a good while since I took my 50 cal TC Plains Rifle out for a spin. If I remember correctly, it has a 1/48 twist. I don't ever remember shooting it at 300 yd targets, but I did shoot it at 200 yds a few times. I was pleased with the accuracy using a Sabot and FFG BP.

 

Snakebite

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On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 5:17 PM, Sixgun Symphony #62632 said:

I am trying different loads and bullets to see if I can get consistent hits out to three hundred yards with a percussion rifle. It is the Investarms Model 120A, their version of the "Hawken" rifle. This rifle is .45 caliber, 1:48 twist, in a 28" length barrel. I am experimenting with 240 grain T/C Maxiball and the 250 grain Lee REAL bullets. The Maxiballs are lubed with T/C Borebutter, the Lee REAL bullets are lubed with the Lee Liquid Alox. I am using the Ox-Yoke Wonderwads to get more of a seal under the bullets and get more lubrication. I am getting 3MOA at 100yds with the Lee REAL bullets over 90gr of Goex FFFFG, on a good day. Not consistent yet, I need to work on my shooting to reduce human error. It is hard when absorbing that crescent butt when shooting at the bench, I will be acquiring a shoulder pad for that soon. 

 

Hawken.jpg

HawkenIII.jpg

HawkenIV.jpg

HawkenV.jpg

HawkenVI.jpg

Maxiball.jpg

REALII.jpg

REAL.jpg

I see one problem "FFFFG". I hope you are NOT using 90gs of 4f in that rifle, you could have catastrophic results if you are.

 I have a 45 cal and it likes 2f better than 3f, much better accuracy. I also have a 50 cal that is much more accurate with 3f than with 2f. I'm guessing that the 4f you typed was a typo, If not you need to get with someone that knows BP shooting and get them to help you.

kR

PS 4f is priming powder for flintlocks.

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I had a friend who at one time could shoot some really tight groups with a Lyman GP percussion rifle BUT sadly I do not have specifics on group sizes or caliber.  He actually owned two or thee others and had owned more in the past BUT credited the Lyman with being the best of the low price end breed!

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Kid-Good catch:excl:

You really have no reason to use 4F.

IF the gun will shoot. 2F or 3F will do.

OLG

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If you need a butt pad for a 45 cal muzzle loader somthin is not rite.

I never used one on my 54 cal Hawken or my Clinch Mtn 50 cal flinter.

kR

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On 5/31/2019 at 4:35 PM, Three Gun Cole said:

It’s been along time ago,

but we used to shoot 2”-3” groups at 200 yards with a Thompson center hawken 45 cal

try 105 grains of FFF real black with the TC maxi-ball 

 

3GC



That is encouraging. :)

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On 6/2/2019 at 10:10 AM, Kid Rich said:

I see one problem "FFFFG". I hope you are NOT using 90gs of 4f in that rifle, you could have catastrophic results if you are.

 I have a 45 cal and it likes 2f better than 3f, much better accuracy. I also have a 50 cal that is much more accurate with 3f than with 2f. I'm guessing that the 4f you typed was a typo, If not you need to get with someone that knows BP shooting and get them to help you.

kR

PS 4f is priming powder for flintlocks.

That was a typo that I did not catch. I am using FFFG Goex. 

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If I remember correctly my 50 cal Pennsylvania rifle liked 90 gs of 3f Schutzen for the most accurate load. 120 gs was the max. depends on the rifle. My Hawken the max was 145 gs of 2f I never did much target shooting with that one. I found after I fire lapped my ML's that the accuracy improved tremendously. Try Schutzen or if you are sticking with Goex try their Old Eynsford Powder. the fouling is softer due to the charcoal they use to make the powder.

kR

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People can SEE a 6" target at 300 yards???

 

Wow.

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On 5/31/2019 at 5:05 PM, Ramblin Gambler said:

The twist is your main problem.  1 in 48 is billed as a twist that shoots round balls and maxi balls well.  In reality it's a twist that shoots both equally poorly.  You need more like a 1 in 66 or 72 for round balls and about 1 in 24 for the longer ones. 

 

At least that's what I recall.  I'm toying around with getting a new percussion rifle to use in long range matches, but it's been almost 2 decades since I actually shot one.  When I get one I'm going to get a gibbs or a parker hale. 

 

I agree with RG.  even with the best equipment, your goal is a lofty one for a muzzle loader.

 

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I probably did once but purely by accident.....too far for my ability and equipment.

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The March/April issue of Muzzleloader magazine has an article by Mike Beliveau on shooting a .54 caliber flinter at long range.  Probably some stuff in there that would apply to a Hawken.

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I can barely see my truck at 300 yards.

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I really don't see the problem.  I have been able to CONSISTENTLY hit a 6" target at 300 yards with a Hawken.  I've even done it at 400.  HOWEVER, it does take a good few minutes to walk out that far and poke the 6" target with the muzzle of the rifle.  AND they always Go Down!!  :o  Oh, and it's kinda a long walk back too  :)

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1 minute ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I really don't see the problem.  I have been able to CONSISTENTLY hit a 6" target at 300 yards with a Hawken.  I've even done it at 400.  HOWEVER, it does take a good few minutes to walk out that far and poke the 6" target with the muzzle of the rifle.  AND they always Go Down!!  :o  Oh, and it's kinda a long walk back too  :)

I'm afraid you'll get a MDQ for using ammo that's way below the minimum SASS FPS :P

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I can hit any 300 yard target  from 6 inches.  Seems to me that 300 yards is pretty large for only 6 inches, 

but some have a keener eye than others. 

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My Lyman Great Plains does really well with a patched round ball.  At 100 yards its a cloverleaf. Nice tight group. At 150 I could still kill a deer. At 200 it's iffy if I even want to waste a shot at paper.  My TC Renegade would do 200 easy once you figgered the number of feet to hold over so the Maxi would drop in. 

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First off you will do better with a Faster Twist for shooting Bullets Like Lee REAL and the like  1-28 is ideal ...  As is 3f Powder

For Round Ball in .45 cal. a one in 66 is the answer .... With barrels under 29 inches in Length ... With barrels of 33 - 35 inches 1-72 works well with custom barrels and larger charges of 3F ...

I had a 1-79 Twist in a custom barreled 50 caliber that loved 200 grains of 3F under the Ball ....

Used it for putting Holes in the side of Bears destroying Bee hives  ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

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80 grain of FFG Goex for round ball out of a 30" barrel. 100 grain for Maxiball from 28" barrel. Anything more just added to the light show or stripped the patch. 

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From the bench with a Remington sabot slug, yes.  With patch and ball I keep it under 200 yards.

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On 6/2/2019 at 8:35 PM, Kid Rich said:

If you need a butt pad for a 45 cal muzzle loader somthin is not rite.

I never used one on my 54 cal Hawken or my Clinch Mtn 50 cal flinter.

kR

You don't put the butt on the shoulder like you do with a modern rifle.  Move it out so it's right at the shoulder but actually on the upper arm.  You'll know it's right when you move your arm up and down and the sight  moves up and down so you don't have to crane your neck to get the proper sight picture.

 

It also absorbs the recoil better.  Black powder ca and ball rounds recoil differently than cartridges using black or smokeless powder. 

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That's why the butt plate is curved. Even the BP cartridges do not have the sharp recoil that smokiless cartridges have. If I chrono matching velocities BP and smokiless cartidges of the same caliber and bullet weight the BP is noticeably louder and softer recoil.

kR

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