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Dusty Devil Dale

WTC - - fallen firearm

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Posted (edited)

Kirk it did address that. If the gun would have fallen and the TO stops it the shooter still earns the SDQ. That way if the TO is too slow, doesn't see it, or maybe even chooses not to stop it then it doesn't end up as an advantage to some and not to others. 

Edited by Cowboy Junky
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Kirk James said:

If the TO stabilizes a firearm to prevent a fall or not, what is the call?  Should a TO touch someones firearm during a stage because they think it looks unstable or is about to fall? 

Irrespective of penalties, a T. O. must always take action to prevent an unsafe occurrence.  It is not T. O. interference to stabilize a questionable gun placement. 

The ensuing decision regarding penalties is a separate consideration that is totally up to the T. O..   (The T. O. can and does often take action, give warnings, etc., to prevent penalties from occurring.  That is natural and desirable.)  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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7 hours ago, Kirk James said:

This helps some and I appreciate the reference.  I does not address whether or not the TO should assist a  firearm from the possibility of falling.   If it is questionable whether the firearms may fall, should the TO stabilize it, and if they do is it a penalty to the shooter?  I am ok with whatever way the answer goes.  It just came up again this weekend. 

During last years state championship a shooter placed his rifle on a table and it was at rest with no movement.  It slipped off the table without anyone touching it .  The table was examined and was not level or very stable.  The ruling was a re-shoot. I don't disagree with the call.  It just seems to me any firearm that comes to rest (is not moving), and then starts moving on it's own would most likely be prop failure.  

 

 

I'm curious Kirk......how many other shooters used that same table with no issue?

 

Stan

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10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So you intended to have it drop... Pick it up.... And continue shooting?

 

Fascinating... But you are a TG, so you know the correct answer... Right?

 

Phantom

Hey, lightin up! That's called "Gun Dribbling", and many of the more talented shooters are practicing the manuver. It allows the shooter to actually continue to shoot while moving, as long as the timing is precise.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Here is a related thread that may help clear things up a bit:

That helps a LOT.   I think I have my requested clarification. 

 

I think the MSV call in my example was an iffy, but correct one.  The rifle was hurriedly placed (not thrown) onto a slightly wobbly table.   I think it was an issue of it not being placed on solid lengthwise balance, and when the table dipped, either being unstable or bumped, the rifle slid off the front edge. 

Benefit of doubt to the shooter. 

 

The best cure for these kinds of problems, during matches, appears to be prior table maintenance attention and level, solid placement, rather than difficult TO/CRO decisions.   Thank you again to all who participated, and particularly to PWB. 

 

DDD

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Use better tables and props. The demise of vertical racks was due to their crappy design and construction. Tables and other racks need to be stable and covered with a non-slip surface. If a shooter places a gun on a 36" x 36" carpet covered table that is level and stable and the gun falls due to bumping the table it is on the shooter. The club is responsible for quality infrastructure or they shouldn't be hosting shooting events. It's a natural instinct to catch a falling gun. However, all TO's are not as talented as others.

Anymore, just let the gun fall was the consensus of the discussion at the TG summit.

If the shooter loses control and the TO catches the gun it's still a penalty. 

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Sante Fe River Stan-Cannot remember the day we shot that stage.  I do know they leveled it off with rocks which did add stability.  Not sure. how many shot the stage before us.  It did happen at the end of our Posse.  I believe it was close to the last shooter.  Not sure. 

 I  understand it is up to the TO to make the call on whether their action saved the rifle from falling and up to them to assess a penalty or not.  That's what we will go by.  I just hope it doesn't determine the out come of a major match.  The key words are would have fallen.  As long as the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter I can let it drop.  If the TO says I think it might have fallen, then it should be a no call.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

Sante Fe River Stan-Cannot remember the day we shot that stage.  I do know they leveled it off with rocks which did add stability.  Not sure. how many shot the stage before us.  It did happen at the end of our Posse.  I believe it was close to the last shooter.  Not sure. 

 I  understand it is up to the TO to make the call on whether their action saved the rifle from falling and up to them to assess a penalty or not.  That's what we will go by.  I just hope it doesn't determine the out come of a major match.  The key words are would have fallen.  As long as the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter I can let it drop.  If the TO says I think it might have fallen, then it should be a no call.

 

 

The reason I ask is that some folks like to run to "prop failure" when something happens.....instead of accepting a penalty caused by their own lack of care when restaging a long gun.

 

I see AGGRESSIVE restaging a lot and I don't have a problem with it but when you play that game you have to accept the added risk that goes along with the added reward of saved time.

 

So was the table not 100% level?.....apparently

Did most of the other shooters negotiate that table without an issue?....sounds like it

 

Was the manner in which the gun was restaged a contributing factor?

 

If I'm the TO and I THINK a gun is going to fall I'm going to try and save it..... to maybe keep it from pointing at the posse and to keep the gun from getting messed up. Without letting the gun actually fall all we have is "Think".....bottom line......The SHOOTER should have taken more CARE when they were restaging their gun.

 

Stan

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Clarification:  When I said let it drop, I meant the issue, not the firearm.  Don't disagree with what you are saying as long as we are consistent with the penalty.  It is not your judgement that is in question.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Clarification:  When I said let it drop, I meant the issue, not the firearm.  Don't disagree with what you are saying as long as we are consistent with the penalty.  It is not your judgement that is in question.  

 

 

That's how I took your "Let it drop"....never thought otherwise. 

 

We both know it won't be consistent but it would be nice......at least there is a better chance this way.

 

Stan

Edited by Santa Fe River Stan,36999L

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