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WTC - - fallen firearm


Dusty Devil Dale

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There is apparent ambiguity in the SHB and RO Handbook with regard to firearms which fall from staging or re-staging tables, on the firing line.   I'm looking for rules (ROC) clarification, or correction, as follows:

__________

Case example:  An empty (spent) rifle, with action open is accidentally bumped and dislodged from a table where it was re-staged following the rifle shooting string.   It falls vertically, muzzle down on the ground, with its butt resting against the table.  It never sweeps anyone, and never exceeds 85 degrees from downrange, therefore does not violate the 170 degree rule. 

_________

 

The SHB states on P 16, under Safety & Handling Conventions - - All Firearms, bullet no. 8:

 

"Any unloaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment". 

(This Convention is reiterated in several other places, such as P 22, under Stage Disqualification (SDQ) 

 

--"Any dropped, unloaded firearm on the firing line") 

 

The same section, bullet no. 12 states:

"Long guns will be... discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange".

 

But then, on P 21, under Minor Safety Violations, it includes as an MSV:

 

"Open, empty long guns that slip and fall-- but do not break the 170 degree safety rule or sweep anyone". 

 

The RO Student Manual, on P. 34 under Rifle staging and Handling Conventions, states:

 

"Rifles may be staged with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer down on the empty chamber (not on the safety notch), as long as the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction - - adheres to the 170 degree rule, and the muzzle is never on the ground" 

 

It further states:

 

"Rifles will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointed in a safe direction.  

 

Page 36, under All Firearms, states:

 

*The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction (generally " up" and slightly down range) at ALL (emphasis added) times.

 

Below on P. 36, it reiterates:

 

"Any unloaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a stage disqualification". 

 

But again, on P. 67,  The RO Manual includes, under Minor Safety Violations:

 

"*Open empty long guns that slip and fall but do not break the 170 degree safety rule or sweep anyone"

 

Then, on P. 68, under Stage Disqualification Penalty it includes:

 

"Any dropped, unloaded firearm on the firing line (from loading table to the unloading table)." 

_________

I've seen these conflicting text excerpts interpreted by T. O.s and 

M. D.s in various ways.  It would be very helpful to have some authoritative interpretation and clarification on whether our intent  is to treat a firearm dropped by a shooter differently from one that falls off of a prop, where staged or re-staged, and whether one or the other, or both, are intended to be assessed as MSVs or SDQs.  

 

In the longer term, I would suggest revising the SHB and RO Manual to simply eliminate the appearance of ambiguity in the language and add a clear Convention stating something like:

 

" At any time, if any part of any (loaded or unloaded) firearm comes accidentally in contact with the ground or with a deck or other constructed walkway feature (excluding deliberate staging) for any reason, it shall result in a Stage Disqualification penalty being assigned."

 

That includes a dropped firearm, a fallen shooter, or a firearm falling off of a prop.   Simply eliminate the MSV confusion for particular cases.  Shooters must ALWAYS control their firearms or be levied penalties. 

 

Just a suggestion. 

 

ROC, any clarification would be helpful. 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Flash said:

Dropping and slipping are two different things.

Seems like from a safety standpoint, both have identical potential results, unless while slipping, the shooter can totally control the firearm.  

 

I worked for the California Agency that investigated hunter firearms accidents.  You'd likely be surprised at the number of serious and fatal accidents resulting from hunter falls, slips, missteps and trips, particularly involving icy conditions.  

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16 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Seems like from a safety standpoint, both have identical potential results, unless while slipping, the shooter can totally control the firearm.  

Dropping implies the shooter is responsible for the gun ending up on the ground.  Slipping means the shooter is not responsible for the gun hitting the ground, instead, prop failure, or something outside the shooter's control.  For example, the shooter puts his gun down, it comes to rest, is no longer moving and later slips and falls.  That's a no call.

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6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Did the rifle land muzzle down in front of the prop or behind(shooters side)it?

IMHO this could be how to call it--

In front-MSV

Behind-SDQ

In front

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50 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Did the rifle land muzzle down in front of the prop or behind(shooters side)it?

IMHO this could be how to call it--

In front-MSV

Behind-SDQ

OLG

 

Nothing I can find in the SHB that mentions different penalties based on where the long gun falls in relation to a prop, only muzzle direction.

 

SHB Page 23

SDQ

Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.
Long guns that slip, fall, and break the 170°.

 

Did the shooter’s actions cause the gun to end up on the ground? In this case it appears so, so I would call it a dropped unloaded gun.  SDQ, next shooter.

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I agree on the consensus here, SDQ, but getting back to changing the SHB... if the shooter falls and controls the firearm all the way until it touches the ground...

NO CALL!!! Controlled is controlled, whether it touched the ground or not.

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58 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Nothing I can find in the SHB that mentions different penalties based on where the long gun falls in relation to a prop, only muzzle direction.

 

SHB Page 23

SDQ

Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.
Long guns that slip, fall, and break the 170°.

 

Did the shooter’s actions cause the gun to end up on the ground? In this case it appears so, so I would call it a dropped unloaded gun.  SDQ, next shooter.

TNX Bill-

I do now agree 110%.

OLG

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1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

getting back to changing the SHB... if the shooter falls and controls the firearm all the way until it touches the ground...

NO CALL!!! Controlled is controlled, whether it touched the ground or not.

That seems workable to me, and makes some sense, but it's also more of an interpretation for the T.O. to have to make.  When I'm holding the timer, I'd personally like for the rules to be as clear and decisive as possible, where possible.  T. O.s have a tough enough job, without having to judge if a firearm is under full (or adequate, or marginally adequate) control or not.  

I realize that nothing in CAS is absolute because there are lots and lots of circumstances, but it seems like the rules should say a firearm on the ground is either one thing or the other.  Right now the rules say both, and we recently spent 10 minutes of stage time listening to all the same arguments being advanced here.  (The official call ended up a Minor Safety.)  The existing rules technically say both, to my reading.  

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Actually the rules are pretty clean when properly understood.  A minor safety for a lesser safety concern of not breaking the 170.

 

I too worked in safety and learned that you can Never be too safe, and that you will Never be completely safe.  That is called - life.  It is inherently dangerous.

 

You can also become more unsafe when you try to add too many layers of safety.  So trying to have more than 3 layers of safety by making more or stricter rules very likely will make the situation more unsafe.

 

Another option to help make it very simple and easy to call (for those R.O. unfamiliar with the rules, just eliminate the minor safeties and go with either Stage DQ's or Match DQ's. 

Or not...

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3 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That seems workable to me, and makes some sense, but it's also more of an interpretation for the T.O. to have to make.  When I'm holding the timer, I'd personally like for the rules to be as clear and decisive as possible, where possible.  T. O.s have a tough enough job, without having to judge if a firearm is under full (or adequate, or marginally adequate) control or not.  

I realize that nothing in CAS is absolute because there are lots and lots of circumstances, but it seems like the rules should say a firearm on the ground is either one thing or the other.  Right now the rules say both, and we recently spent 10 minutes of stage time listening to all the same arguments being advanced here.  (The official call ended up a Minor Safety.)  The existing rules technically say both, to my reading.  

It is pretty simple in my opinion. If the gun leaves your hand in an uncontrolled manner (dropped), unloaded SDQ, loaded MDQ. It does not have to hit the ground. You drop it you win the prize if it hits the ground or not. I am not talking about re-staging a gun.

If you lay the gun down empty and it then falls you get a chance (not getting the DQ) if it does not break the 170. Pretty simple to me.

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4 minutes ago, Flash said:

It is pretty simple in my opinion. If the gun leaves your hand in an uncontrolled manner (dropped), unloaded SDQ, loaded MDQ. It does not have to hit the ground. You drop it you win the prize if it hits the ground or not.

If you lay the gun down and it then falls you get a chance if it does not break the 170. Pretty simple to me.

Not so.

If I drop my firearm onto a prop, it bounces but stays there, there is no call.  If it bounces off,  then the penalties come into play. 

 

BS

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Quote

- As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered in their control.

SHB p.17

 

Quote

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended. 

SHB p.44

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2 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

Not so.

If I drop my firearm onto a prop, it bounces but stays there, there is no call.  If it bounces off,  then the penalties come into play. 

 

BS

So you are saying that I can drop my pistol and as long as it does not fall on the ground I can then pick it up and holster it with no penalty?  I was not talking about staging a gun we are talking about dropping a gun.

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Definition of "Dropped firearm": a firearm that has left the shooter's control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended. 

 

BS

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2 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

Not so.

If I drop my firearm onto a prop, it bounces but stays there, there is no call.  If it bounces off,  then the penalties come into play. 

 

BS

You are also saying that you can drop your firearm and it bounces then pick it up and continue shooting with no penalty right? I was not talking about staging a gun we are talking about dropping a gun.

 

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1 minute ago, Flash said:

You are also saying that you can drop your firearm and it bounces then pick it up and continue shooting with no penalty right?

 

So you intended to have it drop... Pick it up.... And continue shooting?

 

Fascinating... But you are a TG, so you know the correct answer... Right?

 

Phantom

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31 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:
Quote

- As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered in their control.

SHB p.17

 

Quote

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended. 

Thank you v. much, PWB.  That is very helpful -- and quite clear, as regards the "dropped" v. "slipped" terminology.  How about the case example? 

My read, then, would be that the shooter no longer had contact with the firearm, and the firearm came to rest at an unintended location-- so SDQ.   Correct? 

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4 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

There is apparent ambiguity in the SHB and RO Handbook with regard to firearms which fall from staging or re-staging tables, on the firing line.   I'm looking for rules (ROC) clarification, or correction, as follows:

__________

Case example:  An empty (spent) rifle, with action open is accidentally bumped and dislodged from a table where it was re-staged following the rifle shooting string.   It falls vertically, muzzle down on the ground, with its butt resting against the table.  It never sweeps anyone, and never exceeds 85 degrees from downrange, therefore does not violate the 170 degree rule. 

_________

 

Shooter's direct action (bumping) caused the fall (NOT a "slip & fall" situation) = SDQ ... regardless of muzzle direction.

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43 minutes ago, Flash said:

So you are saying that I can drop my pistol and as long as it does not fall on the ground I can then pick it up and holster it with no penalty?

Technically, I believe if you can successfully catch a dropped loaded or unloaded firearm, above the ground and xwithout it ever breaking the 170 degree rule, it is a No Call. 

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2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended. 

 

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Shooter's direct action (bumping) caused the fall (NOT a "slip & fall" situation) = SDQ ... regardless of muzzle direction.

Sorry, PWB, I am still confused. 

 

1.  So is a "slip and fall" firearm not a "dropped" firearm?  Did it not leave shooter control and end up in an unintended location? How do we distinguish the two (Dropped v. S&F)? 

 

2.  Does it really matter who or what caused the rifle to dislodge from the table ( short of a failed table itself or being bumped by an official)? The gun left the shooters control and ended up in an unintended location, so isn't it a "dropped" firearm. 

 

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1 hour ago, Flash said:

I am replying to someone else butt out.

 

 

This is a forum, not a private conversation.  Everything that you've asked has been answered. 

 

BS

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17 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

 

This is a forum, not a private conversation.  Everything that you've asked has been answered. 

 

BS

Not so, I was not actually asking a question I was pointing out how wrong your were by showing an example. I was pointing out that the gun does not have to be on the ground to be dropped and in a location that was unintended.

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37 minutes ago, Flash said:

Not so, I was not actually asking a question I was pointing out how wrong your were by showing an example. I was pointing out that the gun does not have to be on the ground to be dropped and in a location that was unintended

Originally, I believe I said I was looking for ROC guidance on this topic.  I'd appreciate it if you good folks can curb your mutual antagonism, so as to avoid getting the topic locked, preventing interested persons here from getting desired/needed clarification and guidance.  If you want to bicker back and forth, please open your own topic here and use that as a venue. 

Thank you in advance for cooperating.  We do need this ROC clarification.  

DDD

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

Sorry, PWB, I am still confused. 

 

1.  So is a "slip and fall" firearm not a "dropped" firearm?  Did it not leave shooter control and end up in an unintended location? How do we distinguish the two (Dropped v. S&F)? 

 

2.  Does it really matter who or what caused the rifle to dislodge from the table ( short of a failed table itself or being bumped by an official)? The gun left the shooters control and ended up in an unintended location, so isn't it a "dropped" firearm. 

 

 

Here is a related thread that may help clear things up a bit:

 

 

 

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If a long gun comes to reststops and then slips and falls, wouldn't it have to be a prop failure?  If it is declared a prop failure what is the call?  I've seen it treated as a re-shoot with no penalties and a 10 second penalty with a re-shoot.  

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I have to ask again.  If the TO stabilizes a firearm to prevent a fall or not, what is the call?  Should a TO touch someones firearm during a stage because they think it looks unstable or is about to fall?  I did read and evaluate everyone's responses last year but they were all over the place.  I am hoping PW will address this or it goes to the TG for a discussion.

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6 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

I have to ask again.  If the TO stabilizes a firearm to prevent a fall or not, what is the call?  Should a TO touch someones firearm during a stage because they think it looks unstable or is about to fall?  I did read and evaluate everyone's responses last year but they were all over the place.  I am hoping PW will address this or it goes to the TG for a discussion.

 

Quote

7) The action of a CRO/TO saving a long gun from falling over, still results in a penalty for the shooter. Basically if the CRO/TO had not been present to save the shooter from a penalty such as this, and the long gun would have fallen over regardless, then the penalty would still apply. The CRO/TO was just there to save the firearm from getting dirt on it!

Note: This is the only way to apply a penalty such as this, as some TOs may not be able to save the rifle from falling, and it would not be fair for those shooters who receive the penalty purely because of the action / inaction of their particular TO. 

TG Summit - 2015

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This helps some and I appreciate the reference.  I does not address whether or not the TO should assist a  firearm from the possibility of falling.   If it is questionable whether the firearms may fall, should the TO stabilize it, and if they do is it a penalty to the shooter?  I am ok with whatever way the answer goes.  It just came up again this weekend. 

During last years state championship a shooter placed his rifle on a table and it was at rest with no movement.  It slipped off the table without anyone touching it .  The table was examined and was not level or very stable.  The ruling was a re-shoot. I don't disagree with the call.  It just seems to me any firearm that comes to rest (is not moving), and then starts moving on it's own would most likely be prop failure.  

 

 

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