Low BHN Bullets for 38 SP Cowboy Loads

[bgavin]

Does anybody have a recommendation for 38 caliber bullets with a BHN range of 6 to 10?

Iowegan's formula for BHN:  CUP / 1440  or  PSI / 1400
He claims this matches the ideal chamber pressure and lead hardness for optimal obturation and minimal fouling.
Glen Fryxell has done a deep dive into the science of cast bullets.

I'm working up various hand loads for 125gr 38SP with Trail Boss, Clays, Titegroup and Bullseye powders.
The Clays maximum load is BHN=12, all the others give a calculated BHN in the 6 to 10 range.

I contacted a few manufacturers and was given this data:

• BHN= 9 Big Lube Bullets; Desperado Bullets
• BHN=12 Missouri Bullets
• BHN=13 Bear Creek Supply
• BHN=14 Gallant Bullets
• BHN=16 Acme, Badman, Bayou, Chey-Cast, Scarlett, SNS,
• BHN=18 Falcon Bullets, Missouri Bullets
• BHN=19 Cast Performance
• BHN=24 Oregon Trail laser cast

I really took a shine to the Missouri Bullets offerings, but I'd like to find a lower BHN as a better match to slow FPS loads.
 

[Tyrel Cody]

Desparado Cowboy Bullets 8-9 BHN http://cowboybullets.com/

[Sedalia Dave]

If you were shooting bullseye or precision long range the hardness of the lead matters for CAS distances it doesn't matter.

 

In addition to the hardness of the lead the type of lube matters greatly. What you are going to find is that the lube on commercial bullets is almost always way too hard for the velocities we shoot at.  The reason for this is that a hard lube doesn't get all over everything when bullets are bulk packaged. Especially in the summer.

 

For CAS I switched to Hi-Tek coated bullets and haven't regretted it one bit. When I want precision bullets I cast and lube my own.

[Tyrel Cody]

7 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

If you were shooting bullseye or precision long range the hardness of the lead matters for CAS distances it doesn't matter.

 

In addition to the hardness of the lead the type of lube matters greatly. What you are going to find is that the lube on commercial bullets is almost always way too hard for the velocities we shoot at.  The reason for this is that a hard lube doesn't get all over everything when bullets are bulk packaged. Especially in the summer.

 

For CAS I switched to Hi-Tek coated bullets and haven't regretted it one bit. When I want precision bullets I cast and lube my own.

Harder Bullet = LOUDER Clang = LESS Misses

 

but that isn't the question he asked

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Softer bullet = lower amount of leading at 700 FPS = more accuracy

 

Some folks have different goals than others. 

 

Desperado is a great supplier.   Most other commercial casters use the common hard bullet alloy 6 Sb/ 2 Sn/ Pb

The alloyed materials make that more expensive to make than a soft bullet alloy.   Mixing that 6/2 with soft lead in a 1/1 weight ratio gets the hardness down to about 8 Brinnell.

 

Good luck, GJ

[bgavin]

Thanks for all the great replies.
I figured the experienced hands here would have answers and save me from re-inventing the wheel.

The loads I worked up for 38SP with Trail Boss, Clays, Titegroup and Bullseye all fall in the 750 to 985 fps range.
Pressures indicate BHN range of 6 to 12, only Clays maximum load is BHN=12, the rest are 10 or lower.

I'll load up samples of each and see how they do at the range.
The coated Missouri Bullets in 125gr are very appealing right now.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Call these guys-been using their bullets since day one in this game.

https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/

OLG

[Ripsaw]

10 hours ago, bgavin said:

Thanks for all the great replies.
I figured the experienced hands here would have answers and save me from re-inventing the wheel.

The loads I worked up for 38SP with Trail Boss, Clays, Titegroup and Bullseye all fall in the 750 to 985 fps range.
Pressures indicate BHN range of 6 to 12, only Clays maximum load is BHN=12, the rest are 10 or lower.

I'll load up samples of each and see how they do at the range.
The coated Missouri Bullets in 125gr are very appealing right now.

 

The Missouri Bullet Co. Hi Tek coated cowboy bullets are great. I've been shooting them for 4 years with zero issues and no leading whatsoever. Most of my loads are 600-700fps.  Enter "SASS" and get a 5% discount at checkout.  

[Juan Solo]

Go coated and don't worry about leading. Even shooting real powder puff 45s down in the 500 fps ranges no leading with the hi Tek.

[Bull Skinner]

BHN of pure lead is 5. Using your formula that equates to 7200 CUP! The only powder I know that can get you that low. Is BP and would require a load below  the minimum of 1cc. The lowest loads in the Hodgdon manual are all above 8400 CUP!  2.5 grains of Clays and 125 grainer as an example. You are talking a 5.8 BHN! That's lower than 1 part tin to 10 parts lead. I don't think any caster goes that soft.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'm so glad I decided long ago to not make this game complicated...

 

Phantom

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

53 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm so glad I decided long ago to not make this game complicated...

 

Phantom

Me too. Fill the case with BP to within about 1/8-1/4 inch of the rim, seat the bullet and give it a hard crimp. No problemo!

[bgavin]

1 hour ago, Bull Skinner said:

BHN of pure lead is 5. Using your formula that equates to 7200 CUP! The only powder I know that can get you that low. Is BP and would require a load below  the minimum of 1cc. The lowest loads in the Hodgdon manual are all above 8400 CUP!  2.5 grains of Clays and 125 grainer as an example. You are talking a 5.8 BHN! That's lower than 1 part tin to 10 parts lead. I don't think any caster goes that soft.

Absolutely.
8400 CUP is the lowest I've seen as well, and I've not seen any commercial bullets at BHN=5.8.
Which goes to show why ultra light loads that don't have any bullets matching  that low BHN can be problematic.
The way I understand it, this low CUP is not sufficient to properly obturate the bullet.

The lowest bullet BHN I've found (so far) is the Desperado at BHN=9, or 12,960 CUP.

Missouri Bullets are BHN=12 or CUP=16,800.
There is a Hodgdon Clays load for 125gr 38SP that matches this BHN and is one I want to try.

Conversely, BHN=24 is CUP=34,560 which is midway in Lyman's 357 Magnum loads.
These are Oregon Trail laser casts and appear to be well suited for magnum pressures.
 

[Bull Skinner]

Sorry bgavin, I assumed by your post you were uninformed on the subject. Obviously  I was wrong carry on sir!

 

Ps. I like Missouri bullet BHN 12 bullets. And shoot their 125 grainers loaded with 3.6 grains of Red Dot with good results and no leading. When I shoot nitro powder that is.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

The lowest bullet BHN I've found (so far) is the Desperado

 

 

If you are really concerned that you want a 5 Brinnell slug, see Springfield Slim's soft lead bullets at:

http://hstrial-mwhyte2.homestead.com/

 

These will be big lube bullets, and relatively expensive compared to the common commercial slugs.

 

I'd suggest, though, that you are getting away from the practical by insisting your slugs exactly meet the pressure curve of your loads.   Accuracy isn't EVERYTHING when loading for SASS main match.   In this case, availability may win out over exact hardness.  Brinnell 9 slugs are what I shoot in low pressure Cowboy 45 Special.  Plenty of accuracy, even if the formula might suggest a Brinnell 7 slug.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[bgavin]

3 hours ago, Bull Skinner said:

Sorry bgavin, I assumed by your post you were uninformed on the subject. Obviously  I was wrong carry on sir!

 

Ps. I like Missouri bullet BHN 12 bullets. And shoot their 125 grainers loaded with 3.6 grains of Red Dot with good results and no leading. When I shoot nitro powder that is.

 

Right up front, I am a newbie at hand loads.

My method of learning is Immersion.
I study, dig, build spread sheets, work the math and ask questions of those more knowledgeable than me.
The intent is having a good understanding of WHY I want a starting point for my loads.

I know from long experience that if I introduce my wife to the game, with a hot load, she will shy away forever.
This is the same concept as the idiot who takes his wife to the top of a Black Diamond run on her first outing at snow skiing.

As I understand it right now, there are three states:
CUP < BHN,  CUP = BHN  and CUP > BHN

CUP < BHN
An extreme example would be as Bull Skinner notes above.. 8400 CUP with a BHN=22 bullet.
There is not enough pressure to obturate the hard lead, so it leaks pressure.
No barrel leading because the bullet is too hard for the pressure.

CUP = BHN
Wedded bliss.
Pressure is matched to hardness for correct obturation and no leading.

CUP > BHN
Too much pressure for too-soft lead.
Causes barrel leading.

Your Red Dot is a couple points higher on the fast burning scale than Clays.
I am very much interested in the Missouri Bullets 125gr RNFP in my Vaqueros and 1894CB.
There is a 3.5gr Clays load where BHN=12, CUP=16,900 that exactly matches this bullet.
This will be my starting point.

[Bull Skinner]

1 normally shoot 44s so to me the hottest 38 load has little or no noticeable recoil. So that clays load should be very mild with light recoil. But mild or light recoil is in the eye, or should I say the hand of the beholder. Let us know how they work out.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Ya know, if you use a bullet that is large enough in the first place, it  really doesn't have to obturate. Use a soft bullet, keep it large enough and go for it. I'm with Phantom, keep it simple.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

There is not enough pressure to obturate the hard lead, so it leaks pressure.
No barrel leading because the bullet is too hard for the pressure.

 

No, there most likely WILL BE leading, because of "gas cutting"  - as hot gas leaks around the base of bullet, it melts some lead off and deposits it in the barrel.   Mostly occurs near the chamber.

 

 

Quote

Too much pressure for too-soft lead.
Causes barrel leading.

 

No, not so much either.   This is caused mostly by velocity exceeding what the soft lead alloy and the lube is able to withstand.  Friction of the bullet on the barrel walls strips off some of the lead and leaves lead deposits.  Usually along the whole length of the barrel.   A soft lead bullet starts to lead at about 900 FPS.   As folks found when the .357 magnum cartridge was developed, a Brinnell 9 or so alloy bullet starts to lead a barrel when the velocity gets up to about 1300 or 1400 FPS.    The .357 magnum (and .44 mag) was what convinced commercial bullet makers to produce a real hard 15 or 20 Brinnell cast bullet - so pistoleers would not be held back in their search for more velocity.

 

As you can see, this rabbit hole is deep and twisty.  You will be satisfied with your selected load.  You would be even more happy if you drop the powder to about 2.6 grains of Clays in a .38 special case.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Juan Solo]

Leading is mostly caused by a bad fit of the bullet and pushing it too fast. The reality is for handguns that aren't shooting 50 yard bullseye, the right bhn to cup is such a minor component compared to getting a good fit. If the barrel is .452, and your cones are bigger than .452 you will get a good seal with a .452 bullet (as proofed by a Chrono and  consistent fps) and will have minimal leading at low velocity. 

 

The formula is so not exact (I've also seen psi/1298 and a few other numbers) it's a very rough estimate of around where you want to be. To add more wrinkles, the pressure you are seeing is out of a test barrel so no cylinder gap meaning that in your barrel it's even lower.

[Lawman Mays]

On 5/24/2019 at 8:52 PM, Ripsaw said:

The Missouri Bullet Co. Hi Tek coated cowboy bullets are great. I've been shooting them for 4 years with zero issues and no leading whatsoever. Most of my loads are 600-700fps. 

Same for me. "Hardness Optimized".

[Ripsaw]

Garrison Joe explained causes of leading as I've always understood them.  

[bgavin]

Those wanting to deep dive into the science of this can look Here 

Start around PDF page 32 or thereabouts.
Be sure to read the qualifications of the guy who did the research.
This guy isn't some "internet expert", but a guy with a serious desire to research the science of bullets.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, Glen Fryxell is a well noted cast bullet writer and experimenter.    His work rings true from a metallurgical standpoint as well as from practical internal ballistics concerns.

 

Good luck, GJ

[bgavin]

This last weekend, we attended an Outlaws match at the Sacramento Shooting Center.
Allie Mo and the shooters were very friendly and made us feel welcome.
We were very impressed by the blazing speed and grace of Doc Shapiro and the other shooters.

Every 38 shooter I spoke with uses 158gr RNFP with either Clays or Trail Boss light loads around 3.5 grains.
They all spoke to the benefits of a standard bullet weight.
After the match ended, I found these 158s very pleasant to shoot.

A Missouri RNFP 158gr with 3.6gr of Win WST will get me right at that BHN=12 I'm searching for.
Stepping up to 5.5 grains of Universal and the same bullet adds more juice for the 1894 and knockdown targets.
 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

8 hours ago, bgavin said:

This last weekend, we attended an Outlaws match at the Sacramento Shooting Center.
Allie Mo and the shooters were very friendly and made us feel welcome.
We were very impressed by the blazing speed and grace of Doc Shapiro and the other shooters.

Every 38 shooter I spoke with uses 158gr RNFP with either Clays or Trail Boss light loads around 3.5 grains.
They all spoke to the benefits of a standard bullet weight.
After the match ended, I found these 158s very pleasant to shoot.

A Missouri RNFP 158gr with 3.6gr of Win WST will get me right at that BHN=12 I'm searching for.
Stepping up to 5.5 grains of Universal and the same bullet adds more juice for the 1894 and knockdown targets.
 

I find that very hard to believe... That everyone that was shooting 38's were using 158gr bullets. Outside of KD rounds, probably the least used weight for 38's in our game.

 

I think you were talking to the wrong folks 

 

Phantom

[bgavin]

I spoke to the guys shooting the revolvers.
I guess they were the wrong guys.

I'll do better next time...

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

21 minutes ago, bgavin said:

I spoke to the guys shooting the revolvers.
I guess they were the wrong guys.

I'll do better next time...

 

Whatever that means

 

Yer kidding yourself if you think that the 158's are popular for anything but KD rounds... But what do I know...

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

[Assassin]

105's and 125's around these parts. I've shot them all over the past 23 years. Find a supplier that takes care of you and stick with them. 

Don't over think anything in this game. If your ammo goes bang every time and your guns work properly that's half the battle.

 

[bgavin]

I am meticulous by profession, so I dig deep into everything for a full understanding.
Immersion is how I learn.

When I speak to experienced shooters who tell me something, I take it at face value.
I'm not into self-delusion, nor am I a fan-boy of some particular configuration.
I'm just trying to educate myself so I have valid reasons for the choices I make.

My objectives are working up enjoyable loads for my Vaqueros and sufficient knockdown energy and proper feeding in my Marlin 1894.
This will keep my guns working properly, so I can then concentrate on having fun.


 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

In my experience, 125 gr TC bullets work the best for overall feeding and knockdown ability. Most folks around here use 125s or 105s and TC. I, personally, use Trail Boss but a lot use a light load of Clays with a 105 or 125. Coated are becoming more popular all the time. Great for leading probs. I would have to agree, unless you're looking for a KD bullet, 158s would fall down on the priority list. I have used 158s before and if you like em, knock yourself out. Cost more and most likely have more recoil, but hey, your deal.

[Tyrel Cody]

15 minutes ago, bgavin said:

I am meticulous by profession, so I dig deep into everything for a full understanding.
Immersion is how I learn.

When I speak to experienced shooters who tell me something, I take it at face value.
I'm not into self-delusion, nor am I a fan-boy of some particular configuration.
I'm just trying to educate myself so I have valid reasons for the choices I make.

My objectives are working up enjoyable loads for my Vaqueros and sufficient knockdown energy and proper feeding in my Marlin 1894.
This will keep my guns working properly, so I can then concentrate on having fun.


 

 

 

I'd suggest asking the bullet makers you listed earlier in this thread which weight 38s they sell the most of. My WAG is 55% 125, 40% 105, 4% 158, 1% other.

 

Should probably include Badman, Bullet's by Scarlett, Waimea, and as many other actual cowboy bullet makers you can find.

 

 

[bgavin]

These are all above the pressure range that I want for my revolvers.

• BHN=13 Bear Creek Supply
• BHN=14 Gallant Bullets
• BHN=16 Acme, Badman, Bayou, Chey-Cast, Scarlett, SNS,
• BHN=18 Falcon Bullets, Missouri Bullets
• BHN=19 Cast Performance
• BHN=24 Oregon Trail laser cast

This is a partial list of bullet makers that offer Hi-Tek coated bullets

www.acmebullet.com
www.badmanbullets.com
www.bayoubullets.net
www.billybullets.com
www.blackbulletsinternational.com
www.bnbcasting.com
www.bulletdudes.com
bulletsbyscarlett.com
www.cimarronbullets.com
www.egglestonmunitions.com
www.gatewaybullets.com
www.ibejiheads.com
www.leatherheadbullets.com
www.lucky13bullets.com
www.missouribullet.com
www.pennbullets.com
www.precisionbullets.com
www.shootersbullets.com
www.snscasting.com
www.standarddeviationarms.com
www.thebluebullets.com

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Oh my god... Please...relax!!

 

Ugh!

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I understand your M.O., but please don't overthink this. If you were shooting Bullseye or long distance, I'd say have at the analytics of the bullets, but for what we do, find something that works for you and press. Try a couple different bullets that are available to you locally and try em out. I'm bettin' that with a 125 gr TC bullet (maybe even coated), you'll be happy. Don't get wrapped around the axle about pressures and hardness and such. With the loads we use (i.e. light) these issues will not make a hill of beans difference. Don't want higher pressures? Don't use a hotter load. A light load of Clays or better yet, Trail Boss and pressures will be very low indeed.