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45 ACP with 200 grain RNFP ?


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Hi Folks:

I have a bunch of 200 grain lead RNFP bullets.

I want to load 'em in 45 ACP cases for occasional WB matches.

I'm sure some of you do this.

Please let me know your load & overall length for this cartridge with the RNFP bullet.

I think I have Trail Boss, Winchester 231, Tite Group, Bullseye, & Clays on hand

Thanks in advance

--Dawg

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Promo or Red Dot 4.2 grains will give around 800fps. Well over the 750 threshold for a 200 grainer. Mine are crimped in the crimp groove which makes overall length a tad short of book minimum. But I've never had an issue with any of the 1911's they've gone through including my Tommy Gun. I do size mine .451 though. Had issues at .452 that went away at .451

 

By the way, I was running 3.6 grains of Promo until we chrony'd them and they were just under 740 fps.

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Half the formula is 4.5 Bullseye, but I use a H&G #68 SWC, so the overall length is determined by the bullet shoulder - looks to be about 1.240".

WildBunchAmmo.jpg

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A 200 grain RNFP bullet will almost always work well in 1911 pistols.  The shape is pretty close to the military FMJ bullet the military had the gun designed for a hundred eight years ago.

 

4.7 grains of WST (Winchester Super Target) works for me, and makes the Wild Bunch power factor in most guns.  It's as clean as any powder in a 1911 pistol.  

 

Cartridge OAL is set on .45 auto loads based on where the rounded portion of nose meets the cylindrical part of the slug.  You want NONE of the cylindrical section ("the shoulder", the driving band for example) to project from the case mouth.   Only the rounded part of nose should stick out of the mouth.   This is because the 1911 barrels have a VERY short throat between the chamber and the rifling.  So, seating the bullet too far forward means the cylindrical section jams into the rifling, and failures to fully chamber some rounds occur.

 

My OAL will be different than your OAL because my 200 gain RNFP most likely has a different shape to the nose section.  There is no standard nose shape in RNFP bullets unless we both just happen to use bullets from the same brand and mold number of the mold casting the bullets.  So don't load to the OAL - that is much less important than keeping the bullet nose from jamming into rifling.

 

Like J Bar shows above, the cylindrical section of those semiwadcutter bullets just barely sticks out above the mouth of the case.   Those will chamber well.  Farther out, they jam up the gun.

 

Taper crimp the cartridge, returning the case mouth diameter to about 0.471" 

 

Good luck, GJ

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Hi Dawg .

I load my 45ACP with 200gr RNFP Lee Hard Cast Lead Bullets.

With 6.0gr of  Unique powder .

Pan lube with 50/50 mix of Bees wax and Lard 

Crimp at the crimp groove .

Never had a issue of feeding in any 1911 .

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I was using the 200 Grain Round Nose Flat point in .45 ACP for a while because I had a lot of bullets and figured it would be simple to use it for both .45 ACP and .45 Colt.

 

I worked just fine in my 1913 vintage 1911, but did not have quite enough power to work the cycle on my early 2000's newly made 1911.  That made me realize that the recoil spring on my old gun was, well, tired.  I replaced it with a new spring, and lo and behold, the loading I was using wouldn't cycle that gun either.  So, I switched to 230 grain round nose bullets.  They work just fine for some reason...

 

But what did I wind up doing with all of the rounds I loaded up with the 200 grain bullets?  Stuffed 'em in to moon clips for use in my 1917's and shaved Webley revolvers.  In fact, I still load this loading for use in those guns, especially the Webley's, which really can't handle "full power" .45 ACP pressures.

 

When I get home from work, I'll look up my loading.   It was a minimum charge of Trailboss for use with the 200 grain bullet.

 

As far as OL length goes, I just set the bullet so it would crimp in the crimp groove.   Cycled just fine with the weak and worn out spring.   Using the RNFP bullet also gives me a good visual cue to know that these rounds are specifically made to be used in the revolvers, and are loaded to specs that are safe for use in the Webley. 

 

For the 230 grainers, the ones I am using don't have a crimp grove, so I simple measured and set my dies to give them the same OAL as ball ammo.   The 200's are a little bit shorter.

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Crimping a .45 auto load in the crimp groove is a GREAT way to have the rounds be prone to not going off when the firing pin hits the primer.  The 45 head spaces on the MOUTH of the case.  If you turn the case in so the mouth is not a straight taper with the same taper as the walls of the loaded round, you loose your headspace.  Then holding the round at the proper spot in the chamber either will depend upon the side walls of the round finding a tight spot in the chamber, or the nose reaching out to touch the rifling of the barrel.  Both of those let the round chamber too deeply, and you can get light primer strikes and no fires.

 

The proper place on a grooved slug for the mouth of case to be taper crimped is above that groove, at the last spot before the slug starts to round over (or a conical nose starts it's cone shape) as it narrows down.

 

If you are letting the mouth float over the crimp groove, a little damage to the floating mouth (with no lead behind it) destroys your head space.

 

Good luck, GJ

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8 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The proper place on a grooved slug for the mouth of case to be taper crimped is above that groove, at the last spot before the slug starts to round over (or a conical nose starts it's cone shape) as it narrows down.

 

Thanks -- That should help me get started doing this.

 

And THANKS to all who contributed to this thread.

While I've loaded for 20 years, it has always been for cowboy guns, which is 99% of what I shoot.

--Dawg

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I use 4.5 gr of Bullseye behind a 200 gr Outlaw RNFP, loaded to 1.195 OAL. 

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Let me clarify...  With the RNFP bullets, I no longer use them in the 1911.   They are revolvers only via the use of moon clips.   When I was using them in the 1911, I was always careful to make sure that the crimp wasn't too "much" so that there would be something to headspace on.  

 

But since switching that bullet to a revolvers with moonclips only load, it's not as crucial a point as it used to be.   And to save myself some grief, I actually have 2 seeting/crimping dies.   No, I didn't buy an extra one, I actually FOUND an extra one mixed in with my Dad's reloading supplies.  Don't know why he had a second one.   Anyway, once I discovered this extra thing, I set up one die for the 230 grain RN bullet, and the other for the 200 grain RNFP.  Yes, I put more crimp into the lighter bullet now that it's for revolvers only, but I have also found that it works a little bit better that way out of those guns.   I don't know why.   I just have fun.  :)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Crimping a .45 auto load in the crimp groove is a GREAT way to have the rounds be prone to not going off when the firing pin hits the primer.  The 45 head spaces on the MOUTH of the case.  If you turn the case in so the mouth is not a straight taper with the same taper as the walls of the loaded round, you loose your headspace.

 

Good luck, GJ

With all the mention of crimping above, I was starting to doubt my limited experience of half a century at the reloading bench. :ph34r:

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5 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Crimping a .45 auto load in the crimp groove is a GREAT way to have the rounds be prone to not going off when the firing pin hits the primer.  The 45 head spaces on the MOUTH of the case.  If you turn the case in so the mouth is not a straight taper with the same taper as the walls of the loaded round, you loose your headspace.  Then holding the round at the proper spot in the chamber either will depend upon the side walls of the round finding a tight spot in the chamber, or the nose reaching out to touch the rifling of the barrel.  Both of those let the round chamber too deeply, and you can get light primer strikes and no fires.

 

The proper place on a grooved slug for the mouth of case to be taper crimped is above that groove, at the last spot before the slug starts to round over (or a conical nose starts it's cone shape) as it narrows down.

 

If you are letting the mouth float over the crimp groove, a little damage to the floating mouth (with no lead behind it) destroys your head space.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Good advise to follow!! Been down those bumpy roads.

RJ

 

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9 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

With all the mention of crimping above, I was starting to doubt my limited experience of half a century at the reloading bench. :ph34r:

 

J Bar - I would be the last of the folks in SASS to want to put a crimp in your style.   Carry on as you see fit!  :lol:

GJ

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I remember a time when taper crimp dies were either non-existent, or hard to come by, and we'd use a roll crimp die to take the bell out, but certainly not to put a crimp on the bullet.

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I've loaded .45 auto since 1972.  Never seen a .45 auto seat/crimp die that was not a taper crimp style.  With .45 auto loads, you are not really crimping, you are returning the case wall to just about a straight line.   If half the case wall thickness is visible looking straight down on the nose of the round, you have a perfect "taper crimp", because the other half of the case wall has bit into the bullet.

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My RCBS 3 die .45 acp die set has a sizer, beller/deprimer, and a seater/crimp die. The "crimp ledge" is .740" from the die mouth. The dies are stamped '78, and I bought the taper crimp die (not pictured) a few years later.

(edit) I found a die lock ring, and loaded five rounds with the pictured seater/crimper die, and it does NOT apply any sort of sufficient taper crimp before hitting the roll crimp ledge to allow the finished round to drop into my EGW chamber checker block.

100_2558.JPG

100_2553.JPG

100_2562.JPG

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Seems like RCBS has learned at least a few things since the 1970s.  :lol:

 

I'd like to see the instructions that came with that set.   I'd imagine the instructions say to back the crimp off when using the dies for .45 auto to just straighten out the belling.   And if loading .45 auto rim, then run the crimp down to apply it to that type of round.

 

Further research on The High Road does indicate that it wasn't until about 1980 that RCBS provided a taper crimp rather than a roll crimp die in the .45 auto sets.

 

Perhaps Lyman (my first .45 auto set) had a taper crimp offering earlier than RCBS.

 

Good luck, GJ

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