Update on SASS/CAS et al

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, Flatwater Monte said:

 

I fail to see how a club has anymore liability providing a set of loaner irons than an individual doing the same. Actually, I would say the club has less liability, if they are legitimate, as they have limit of liability waivers and insurance in place to protect themselves in a situation such as that.  

Well to start with-How do the firearms get registered to the club and not an individual member?

Also-who will be responsible for their safe storage etc?

Before anyone advocates such as this--

I strongly urge you to discuss this with a lawyer that deals in liability. It will be an eye opener for you.

In today's sue happy world-It just ain't worth the chance...........

Carry on,

OLG

[Tyrel Cody]

14 minutes ago, Flatwater Monte said:

I see this with our club as well, but most new shooters are ignorant that individuals will loan them irons and therefore are intimidated to come out to shoot. 

 

 

 

As a sport, we need to really work on solutions to getting new and younger shooters to the loading table instead of pissing and moaning about why we can't get them there. This conversation has taken place over and over again and it never seems to produce any positive results. 

 

I have no idea how to fix the ignorance issue,

You got any suggestins?

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

"I am just curious, how many members does SASS have now, how many actual shooters/active members does SASS have, and what is the overall status of CAS today"

 

This was sort of answered by Allie Mo. How in the world can you track active shooters? Or shooters who are members but don't shoot.  The sport has around 27,000 members. How many of those still shoot is anyones guess.

 

We have 3 clubs locally. Two are SASS affiliated and one isn't. Some are members of SASS and some aren't. That club didn't want to pay SASS an annual fee and some members saw no value in belonging to SASS. We insist people shooting our annual match be a SASS member. Monthly shoots not so much. We just want shooters.

 

There absolutely is a liability when loaning guns and "CUSTOM" hand loaded special ammunition. Waivers! Ask any lawyer they provide an initial element of protection but ultimately they don't.

Ike

[Red Cent]

 

 

All of the bankers here should know the answer.

 

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/reports/2010/04/28/the-impact-of-the-september-2008-economic-collapse

 

 

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

I think all posts make valid points which could be factors. A couple I would throw in is the last couple of generations just want to sit under the AC and play idiotic video games rather than get outside in the hot and/or cold and do real world stuff. Couple that with the media onslaught for a few decades now where they've been taught that guns are purely and simply evil. They love them on video games or at the movies, but they're scared to death of a real one.

My 2 cents,

JHC

[Flatwater Monte]

4 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I have no idea how to fix the ignorance issue,

You got any suggestins?

That is the millon dollar question for sure! I don't have a good answer for any of the questions, only suggestions to spark discussion with others to try and develop the solutions! 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

1 hour ago, Flatwater Monte said:

That is the millon dollar question for sure! I don't have a good answer for any of the questions, only suggestions to spark discussion with others to try and develop the solutions! 

Monte, that is as good of an answer as we can come up with now. Until we have more knowledge of member characteristics or a person trained in Marketing working for SASS we cannot come up with anything better. I applaud you for trying and speaking your mind!

[bgavin]

I understand the CAS club in Payson AZ has disbanded... apparently not enough participants.
Prescott still has an active group, which we will join if we can ever find a house there..

Being a Mason, I see the same thing in the service organizations.
Membership everywhere is dwindling... a long way down from the halcyon days of the past.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Our club membership has dropped over the past couple years.  One of the complaints is that CAS has become IPSC in cowboy boots.  Although I still shoot CAS, I just don't compete anymore.  I ignore  the pistol targets and shoot the rifle targets with the pistols, rifle on rifle and shotgun on shotgun targets.  spotters are not required, only the RO for safety reasons as I don't care about the misses.  I just want to play cowboy the way God intended.  The pistol targets are so close now to accommodate the gamers, that it is not fun shooting at targets you can spit on.  One of our members quit CAS and went and joined the muzzle loaders why?  Because you have to "AIM" at the target. I also joined the muzzle loaders for that reason.  I do both now plus lever action silhouette in big bore and pistol calibre, where you have to "AIM" at the targets. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

14 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Monte, that is as good of an answer as we can come up with now. Until we have more knowledge of member characteristics or a person trained in Marketing working for SASS we cannot come up with anything better. I applaud you for trying and speaking your mind!

And some accountability to where all the money is go'n.

I really like the idea of being allowed, without penalty, to use the rifle targets with the handguns 

Perhaps, this could become a rule proposal. Just have the shooter when they come to the line say their intentions, so the spotters know.

OLG

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

so us Life Members are liabilities?  i guess that is accurate, though if the organization had wisely invested the life membership funds in an income generating manner, it would not be so.  i'll happily take back my money and pay annual dues.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

And some accountability to where all the money is go'n.

I really like the idea of being allowed, without penalty, to use the rifle targets with the handguns 

Perhaps, this could become a rule proposal. Just have the shooter when they come to the line say their intentions, so the spotters know.

OLG

OLG, I see that as more of a MD or scenario writer option than a rule.

 

The former president of the club I represent(ed?) wrote almost every stage with that option for a 10 second bonus.

[Assassin]

14 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Monte, that is as good of an answer as we can come up with now. Until we have more knowledge of member characteristics or a person trained in Marketing working for SASS we cannot come up with anything better. I applaud you for trying and speaking your mind!

I would like to express my opinions regarding Marketing from SASS HQ, better not at this time.

Considering, I'm a life member and have run, helped out, and attended many SASS sanctioned events my opinion has seemed to have fallen on deaf ears.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

OLG, I see that as more of a MD or scenario writer option than a rule.

 

The former president of the club I represent(ed?) wrote almost every stage with that option for a 10 second bonus.

Until that, and being allowed to 'stoke' becomes SASS, SOP-many folks will never know the fun.

Such small changes could go a long way is slowing down the participant loss we are now seeing.

OLG

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

5 hours ago, Assassin said:

I would like to express my opinions regarding Marketing from SASS HQ, better not at this time.

Considering, I'm a life member and have run, helped out, and attended many SASS sanctioned events my opinion has seemed to have fallen on deaf ears.

 

Why not at this time? 

 

Respectfully,

OLG

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

.

[Nubbins Colt #7802]

Sigh..................

 

Quote

Nubbins, I remember when you used to post all the time!

 

Yessireebob!  I used to have lots of free time at work because I got done so fast (I am much faster on a computer than I am with guns) and nobody knew what I was doing; all they heard was the keyboard humming away.

 

Then the jobs changed.  That slowed down posting some.  Then I started playing a lot more poker; that was VERY distracting.  Especially since my regular game was on Sunday afternoon and my usual shooting was on Sundays.  Then I started getting fatter and lazier and sleeping in late because I didn't have to be at work at 8 AM.  That led to sleeping late EVERY day which ruined shooting mornings.  Then I retired (or thought I did) and didn't find myself sitting in front of a computer as much as I used to and then I realized I wasn't shooting SASS any longer and then I got a girlfriend and then I got un-retired (which was good for my poker playing habit!) but I sort of fell away from SASS/CAS and then I tore a rotator cuff and then my knees went bad and then I got into Smith & Wesson collecting and then I started hanging around on the S&W Forum and I would "post all the time", well, a lot, anyway, and then a couple of months ago I wondered to myself, "Self, what's up with cowboy action shooting these days?" so I meandered back onto the SASSNET website and here I am. 

 

One never knows.  I could show up at a SASS match again someday.

 

Here's a fun sidebar for y'all - after years of shooting single action revolvers I discovered that I was VERY accurate with fixed sight Smith & Wesson, double action revolvers and that led to my only score of 250 out of 250 on what was then called the Texas Concealed Handgun Test when, as an instructor, I posted a typical 248 with a 9mm and then fired my first 250 with a 4" barreled S&W Model 10 revolver.  I was very proud of that!  I thank my Ruger Vaqueros for making that happen. 

[Nubbins Colt #7802]

Sigh..................

 

Quote

 

 

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Speaking of long-ago postings and S&W, I remember when Sixgun Shorty got his genu-wine Schofields; wonder how he's been doing...

[MizPete]

On 5/17/2019 at 4:01 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

On the last stage, we had to spit at the target. Really!

I remember a match at which we threw a rock at a knockdown.

[Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037]

On 5/18/2019 at 1:51 PM, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said:

10-10-4  10-10-4  10-10-4  10-10-4   sigh    10-10-4  10-10-4  10-10-4  10-10-4  10-10-4.........

 

It was like that 10 years ago, hasn't gotten any better.

 

Shoot the rifle, two steps to the right, shoot the pistols, four steps to the left, shoot the shotgun, or some variation of that.  Boring.

 

Not much action in Cowboy Action Shooting.

 

I only show up anymore for the people.  CAS shooters are the best people I've ever had the pleasure to spend time with.

 

CAS has always been a game dependent upon disposable income, not a cheap hobby.  That trends towards older folks.  They bring in their kids and grandkids, who participate until college, then they disappear till they're 40.  I was fortunate enough financially to begin participating in my early thirties, saw an article in a gun mag, thought, "I want to try that". Took a little bit to garner up all the hardware. 

 

The price of admission will not change unless we change the game, and get the word/visuals out to the general shooting public.

 

Other gun games can be played with one quarter or less of the required initial investment, those games are growing.

 

I shoot a lot of other gun games, and like it or not, most participants of those tend to not look favorably towards this game.  Too many guns, funny clothes, mouse fart loads, and too close targets.  That perception will have to be changed for things to get any better.

 

I mostly shoot 2-gun these days, you might be familiar with these guys https://www.youtube.com/c/inrangetvshow 

 

The match that Karl puts on every month has not been publicized for years (other than the videos they post) yet they had to limit the number of shooters every month to be able to continue the type of match.  We would get over 70 shooters, when the CAS matches get 25.  Usually 4-5 brand new shooters every month.  You can shoot these matches with any rifle or pistol and a good holster.  The online presence of InRangeTv motivates those younger folks to get off the couch and throw kettlebells when it's 100 degrees outside.

 

For CAS to stop the bleeding, something needs to happen online to grab their attention, and make it easier to get into.

 

YMMV.

[Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037]

Oops, doubletap - procedural.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Shot my first match this year this past weekend.  I said that I was going to shoot the rifle targets with my handguns just to make it more interesting.  Didn't have to, the rifle targets were only 2 yards further that the pistol ones.  On one stage, the rifle targets were actually ahead of the pistol targets.  For the five stages, I shot my Uberti '73 and hit 49 out of 50 rifle targets without using the sights.  I just looked down the barrel and pulled the trigger.  Sloppy shooting on my part on the one target that I missed.  The time increases for the posse to complete a stage as we have to wait for all the gamers to phantom shoot the entire sequence before the shoot for real.  I know it is illegal to phantom shoot after being called to the line but, they get away with it.

God didn't intend for cowboy shooting to end up this way.

[Tyrel Cody]

16 minutes ago, Buffalo Creek Law Dog said:

Shot my first match this year this past weekend.  I said that I was going to shoot the rifle targets with my handguns just to make it more interesting.  Didn't have to, the rifle targets were only 2 yards further that the pistol ones.  On one stage, the rifle targets were actually ahead of the pistol targets.  For the five stages, I shot my Uberti '73 and hit 49 out of 50 rifle targets without using the sights.  I just looked down the barrel and pulled the trigger.  Sloppy shooting on my part on the one target that I missed.  The time increases for the posse to complete a stage as we have to wait for all the gamers to phantom shoot the entire sequence before the shoot for real.  I know it is illegal to phantom shoot after being called to the line but, they get away with it.

God didn't intend for cowboy shooting to end up this way.

 

What are you calling "phantom shoot"?

 

As long as guns remain in holsters/on a table their good. "Phantom shooting" with hands only is perfectly legal.

[Too Tall Bob]

3 hours ago, Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037 said:

 

It was like that 10 years ago, hasn't gotten any better.

 

Shoot the rifle, two steps to the right, shoot the pistols, four steps to the left, shoot the shotgun, or some variation of that.  Boring.

 

Not much action in Cowboy Action Shooting.

 

I only show up anymore for the people.  CAS shooters are the best people I've ever had the pleasure to spend time with.

 

CAS has always been a game dependent upon disposable income, not a cheap hobby.  That trends towards older folks.  They bring in their kids and grandkids, who participate until college, then they disappear till they're 40.  I was fortunate enough financially to begin participating in my early thirties, saw an article in a gun mag, thought, "I want to try that". Took a little bit to garner up all the hardware. 

 

The price of admission will not change unless we change the game, and get the word/visuals out to the general shooting public.

 

Other gun games can be played with one quarter or less of the required initial investment, those games are growing.

 

I shoot a lot of other gun games, and like it or not, most participants of those tend to not look favorably towards this game.  Too many guns, funny clothes, mouse fart loads, and too close targets.  That perception will have to be changed for things to get any better.

 

I mostly shoot 2-gun these days, you might be familiar with these guys https://www.youtube.com/c/inrangetvshow 

 

The match that Karl puts on every month has not been publicized for years (other than the videos they post) yet they had to limit the number of shooters every month to be able to continue the type of match.  We would get over 70 shooters, when the CAS matches get 25.  Usually 4-5 brand new shooters every month.  You can shoot these matches with any rifle or pistol and a good holster.  The online presence of InRangeTv motivates those younger folks to get off the couch and throw kettlebells when it's 100 degrees outside.

 

For CAS to stop the bleeding, something needs to happen online to grab their attention, and make it easier to get into.

 

YMMV.

Says the man who cries when they (his 2 gunner friends) shoot up all his Thompson and BAR ammo before the match is over!!!

[Tom Bullweed]

There was a time when Trap was more popular than Skeet.  I shot on a state trap league in the early 1990s when we were outnumbered 10 to 1  by skeeters on the local clay ranges.  Now I see that skeet is still popular and sporting clays is just as popular.  I do not see or hear of many trap shooters now.

If our game was simplified to make entry easier: shoot one pistol and the rifle, move the target back 50% and add some movement.  (There are limited photos, stories and movies with a average cowboys armed for 10-10-4.)  Otherwise, we need an effective growth effort or just ride the ride to some lower level of membership.  Our local state match is a good example of losing about 50% of attendees in the last ten years.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

7 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

What are you calling "phantom shoot"?

 

As long as guns remain in holsters/on a table their good. "Phantom shooting" with hands only is perfectly legal.

 

That's not counting the time making sure that their rifle and shotgun are placed in the exact position......a little bit to the left.......no...a little bit to the right.......no.........a tad forward........no, too much....pull it back  1/50th of a centimeter........no, too far, push it forward 1/25th of a centimeter,  and the beat goes on. 

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Just as a side note to an interesting topic...In Australia [ pop -25 million ] we have only approx 900 registered Cowboy Action Shooters & only 300-400 would be registered with SASS.... Yep not many at all..... 'BUT  we also continually have the better participation for our State & National competitions, we may be one of the smaller  disciplines however all  our  shoots most times are well supported....getting the younger ones involved is also a problem here !!

[Major Crimes]

1 hour ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

Just as a side note to an interesting topic...In Australia [ pop -25 million ] we have only approx 900 registered Cowboy Action Shooters & only 300-400 would be registered with SASS.... Yep not many at all..... 'BUT  we also continually have the better participation for our State & National competitions, we may be one of the smaller  disciplines however all  our  shoots most times are well supported....getting the younger ones involved is also a problem here !!

 

I agree wholeheartedly  with PM (don't expect to see that often)

I think one of our advantage's in relation to State and above matches is the breadth of skill.

Down Under we know there will be a skill spread from OMG that's fast (Savage Sam) to OMG that's slow (Me?) at every "away" event and that encourages all to have a crack.

Add to that that our National Character that loves to rib the best and encourage the battler and you have a pretty good atmosphere for those thinking about attending their first away event.

Not saying our USA Big Brothers and Sisters aren't welcoming but going by the posts here the Aussies are a little more relaxed about the competition part of the fun. Now I have to go as I have the NSW titles in a week and a bit and I have to practice so I can woop that cheatin so and so Painted Mohawk

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Up here In Canada I would say that less than 1 in 3  Cowboy Shooters is a SASS member ....

We had and Have our own Cowboy shooting clubs, and regional groups like ( SAWS, AFS etc. ) and plenty of shooting to be had With-out the added cost of a SASS membership ...

And Cost is certainly a factor in getting started in the game ,,,,

 

You have to have the Latest Super-short Stroked and tricked-out 73 and spare done the same,,, two completely tricked out Revolvers ,,,, plus Spares....

Two 97s all slicked up ,,,, plus 3 more for spares

IF YOU WANT TO COMPETE IN THIS GAME ,,, is kinda the new thought of speed at all cost crowd ... A great way to scare off  "New" shooters than might someday beat you IF they ever got started ....

 

But I think there is plenty of room to play the game as it suits YOU while staying with-in the rules of the game ...

 

Make Smoke !

Jabez Cowboy

 

[evil dogooder]

Again the are a lot of older people here assuming a bunch about younger generations. 

 

  I've worked with 43 new shooters under 35 to date. They are intrigued by cowboys just as much as I was.  Look at the sales of red dead video game. It's big and I get a lot of questions about the guns we use.  They want to try them and think they are cool.  They don't know much about then because guess what, their parents don't have revolvers.  

 

  Press and all the advertising are based on the latest and greatest ccw, or ar. Other than rugers recent add on rimfire shooting when was the last time you saw anything on guns that were for fun? 

  

 

 Here are some of the  issues.

 

 1 as mentioned earlier, cobs. If you want younger shooters to join quit being condescending  Guess what, at one time everyone was a young person who didn't know anything.  That goes with the whole bs buy once cry once, which is just plain stupid to tell someone at an age where a couple hundred bucks is a huge amount of money.  Can anyone who promotes that say that they only have one set of pistols,  one rifle and one shotgun for sass?  No we all buy more it's part of the enjoyment of the hobby. 

 2. Sass is the only shooting sport that has no interest in accuracy. It will never be considered a serious sport until something is done about targets five feet away. All other sports either have smaller targets or scoring zones. Guess what nobody is protesting it.

 3 movement.   Young people do not want to stand and deliver stages.   Period.. i saw the stages posted about the SW regional.  If it was written that way around here I'd quit too. 5 to 10 feet of movement?. Brain dead sweeps? I have been invited out west to shoot several times. Seeing the stages the clubs wrote I declined. I seriously would be too bored to finish the match.  If you write stages to cater to the old you will lose the young.  

 4 cost. In the 8 years I have been shooting sass Rugers have almost doubled in cost.  I set myself up in three gun for less than a 3rd of what it would cost to start in sass now. You can try a pistol event for under 500. Try doing that with sass.

 

 

 

 

 

[MAYOBARD SASS #13025L]

Get rid of the minimal costuming.  You either wear nearly period correct clothes, or B Western, or you don’t get to play.  Get rid of the gamer stages and have more tossing a rope, cutting a rope that ties up the damsel in distress.   In short, bring back the fun stages of the past and replace the machine gun shooting stages where you dump a lot of rounds on close together targets the size of the good year blimp.  It’s cowboy shooting.  Dress like an old West figure or do modern shooting with your modern jeans, lace up ropers, and modern straw hats.  The same folks will win, but everyone will have more fun.  

[Hoss Carpenter]

CAS/SASS was a lot of fun when I joined in the early 90s. But slowly the Speed Merchants took over with too many Stand and Deliver stages. Besides that, I am 78 and have a hard time cocking my 45s with one hand anymore. I now shoot a weekly Tactical match with a 9mm S&W that is a lot easier to shoot. Bur boy I miss the good old SASS matches.  Hoss C.