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Cypress Sun

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Order is 10 pistol, 10 rifle, 4+ shotgun. Target engagement is unimportant for this post. Shoots pistols, shoots 8 rifle and lays rifle down on table with a live round in the chamber, action open and then moves to and picks up shotgun (no shells were loaded). At this point, the TO informs the shooter that there are two in the rifle. Shooter returns to rifle and the TO notices that there is a live round in the chamber. Shooter shoots the 2 rounds, moves to shotgun and finishes the stage.

 

Is there any call to be made or did the shooter have until the next gun to clear the rifle?

 

BTW, call made in the field was SDQ for leaving the shooters hands with a loaded round in the chamber.

 

 

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How did the shooter manage to have a live round in the chamber with the action open?

 

I suppose you could jack the carrier up and then point the muzzle down and have the round slide in...

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"Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired." SHB Vers 23.2 pg 18 

 

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If the action was open there should not be a live round in the chamber, normal cycling would leave a round on the carrier, which would be a minor safety only. If somehow there is a live round in the chamber, SDQ. If the shooter indeed returned to the rifle before firing the next gun, no call.

 

TB

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Maybe the shooter opened the action and the live round on the carrier slid into the chamber while setting the rifle down.  If this was the case then a SDQ.

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2 minutes ago, Ace Hanlon said:

Maybe the shooter opened the action and the live round on the carrier slid into the chamber while setting the rifle down.  If this was the case then a SDQ.

OP says that the shooter corrected the situation before they fired the next gun... "Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired." SHB Vers 23.2 pg 18 

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12 minutes ago, McCandless said:

OP says that the shooter corrected the situation before they fired the next gun... "Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired." SHB Vers 23.2 pg 18 

How would this apply to the situation

SDQ per page 68 of RO1

  • A live round left in the chamber of a long gun (as soon as it leaves the shooters hand)
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6 minutes ago, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

If the action was open there should not be a live round in the chamber, normal cycling would leave a round on the carrier, which would be a minor safety only. If somehow there is a live round in the chamber, SDQ. If the shooter indeed returned to the rifle before firing the next gun, no call.

 

TB

 

The Minor Safety for a round on the carrier is correctable before the next gun is fired.

 

The SDQ for a live round in the chamber when discarded is not correctable.

 

SHB Pg 42

Quote

SDQ - Discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands) 

 

6 minutes ago, McCandless said:

OP says that the shooter corrected the situation before they fired the next gun... "Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired." SHB Vers 23.2 pg 18 

 

Keep reading...If the live round was in the chamber as indicated inthe OP, this is not correctable.

 

SHB Pg 17-18

Quote

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange.  This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired.  If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO.  Should an empty casing/hull be ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed.  However, if the action is opened and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”.  In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands. 

 

1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

Order is 10 pistol, 10 rifle, 4+ shotgun. Target engagement is unimportant for this post. Shoots pistols, shoots 8 rifle and lays rifle down on table with a live round in the chamber, action open and then moves to and picks up shotgun (no shells were loaded). At this point, the TO informs the shooter that there are two in the rifle. Shooter returns to rifle and the TO notices that there is a live round in the chamber. Shooter shoots the 2 rounds, moves to shotgun and finishes the stage.

 

Is there any call to be made or did the shooter have until the next gun to clear the rifle?

 

BTW, call made in the field was SDQ for leaving the shooters hands with a loaded round in the chamber.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Assassin said:

And, if the shooter mumbled "broke gun" and not gone back to remedy the situation, just 2 misses. 

Don't you have to declare broken gun before setting it down under the TO supervision?

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8 minutes ago, Assassin said:

And, if the shooter mumbled "broke gun" and not gone back to remedy the situation, just 2 misses. 

It's sad to think someone would do something like this.

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

However, if the action is opened and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands

I am having a hard time seeing where this happened. This rule assumes the action is closed when the rifle is discarded, it was not. I do not see anything about a "live" round in the chamber. Per the OP there was no ejection of a live round so how is this a SDQ? A similar WTC a while back did address this with the action closed. Is the hammer cocked with the action open, yes, can it be fired if you dropped it or pulled the trigger, no. Just my opinion, but I think this is a no call.

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17 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I am having a hard time seeing where this happened. This rule assumes the action is closed when the rifle is discarded, it was not. I do not see anything about a "live" round in the chamber. Per the OP there was no ejection of a live round so how is this a SDQ? A similar WTC a while back did address this with the action closed. Is the hammer cocked with the action open, yes, can it be fired if you dropped it or pulled the trigger, no. Just my opinion, but I think this is a no call.

 

The rule is looking for a live round in the chamber - not whether the action is open or closed. It is not looking to see whether or not the action is closed.  It does not even specify that the round has to be fully seated in the chamber, just that the round is in the chamber. It could be that it is part way in the chamber. Doesn't matter as it is in the chamber.

 

That being said....

 

The OP does not say, but if the round was in the chamber but the action still open, the shooter could simply close the action and fire off the round. The round would not have been ejected as they had not cycled the action yet.

 

I've seen too many rounds go off with the rifle not in battery and bullets not fully seated in the chamber to say whether or not a particular rifle will fire if you dropped it or pulled the trigger in an unknown condition.

 

SHB Pg 42

Quote

SDQ - Discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands) 

 

the items listed in SHB Pg 17-18 on how to deal with a long gun whose action is closed when discarded is an entirely different issue. This big paragraph came into being a couple years ago when the MSV for a discarded long gun with the action closed was removed from the rule book.

 

SHB Pg 17-18

Quote

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange.  This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired.  If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO.  Should an empty casing/hull be ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed.  However, if the action is opened and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”.  In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands.

 

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A scenario like this happened to me a couple of months ago.  I lost track of the number of rifle rounds fired.  I opened the action and laid the rifle down to move to next gun.  During the act of laying down the rifle the unfired round slide partially into the chamber.  After completing the stage, I went back and discovered the round partially in the chamber and the action open.  Stage DQ was and is the correct call.  Live round in the chamber and rifle was not in my control.  

 

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IfJust to drive this point home:

 

SHB pg 16

Quote

A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:
- Empty.
- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use).

 

Was the rifle in either of these conditions when the rifle left the shooter's hand?

 

According to the OP, no as "the TO notices that there is a live round in the chamber".

 

OK, then is there a penalty for this?

 

Take a look at the poket RO Card and see...

 

Quote

 

rocard.png.4c1eeacb0e406b66ed1d587b9ec7e489.png

 

Discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands) is listed as a SDQ

 

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There are two separate issues being discussed here.

1. If a round is in the Chamber, and leaves the shooters hand, there is NO opportunity to correct it on the clock before the next round is shot. The penalty occurs as soon as the gun leaves the hand.

2. If a round is on the carrier, the shooter has the opportunity to correct it on the clock before the next round is shot.

Two separate scenarios, two separate calls.

 

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All good points. Was the round in the chamber when it left the shooters hands? OP says it was observed by the TO when the shooter went back to correct the error. It may have fallen in the chamber from the carrier when discarded, but the shooter did not "chamber" it as the action was open. I'm still not convinced the rules accurately identify this situation. Several "If's" have to happen before the SDQ, none of which I see in this situation. "If" the shooter had discarded the rifle with the action closed" "If" the shooter does not correct the error" and "If the shooter opens the action and ejects a live cartridge". None of these "Ifs" happened. We all know the round "fell" in the chamber when the rifle hit the table, is that before or after it left the shooters hands? Does it matter since the action is open? At worst I would say it was in the carrier since the action was open, no one knows for sure when it "fell" into the chamber. Benefit to the shooter.

 

Another point for Kettleman, Ya'll correct me if my memory is wrong. But another WTC post earlier this year made the point that a partially chambered cartridge is not "chambered" it is either fully chambered or not chambered at all.

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26 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

All good points. Was the round in the chamber when it left the shooters hands? OP says it was observed by the TO when the shooter went back to correct the error. It may have fallen in the chamber from the carrier when discarded, but the shooter did not "chamber" it as the action was open. I'm still not convinced the rules accurately identify this situation. Several "If's" have to happen before the SDQ, none of which I see in this situation. "If" the shooter had discarded the rifle with the action closed" "If" the shooter does not correct the error" and "If the shooter opens the action and ejects a live cartridge". None of these "Ifs" happened. We all know the round "fell" in the chamber when the rifle hit the table, is that before or after it left the shooters hands? Does it matter since the action is open? At worst I would say it was in the carrier since the action was open, no one knows for sure when it "fell" into the chamber. Benefit to the shooter.

 

Another point for Kettleman, Ya'll correct me if my memory is wrong. But another WTC post earlier this year made the point that a partially chambered cartridge is not "chambered" it is either fully chambered or not chambered at all.

To address your points. 

 

Whether the round was in the chamber when it left the shooter's hands or not is immaterial.  As a result of the shooter's actions the long gun ended up on the table with a round in the chamber.  The condition is deemed to be unsafe regardless of the circumstances that resulted in that condition and the shooter is ultimately responsible for the condition of his guns.  No one is saying there was some type of prop failure that caused it, so the ruling would stand as a SDQ.  

 

If the shooter discarded the action with the action closed also has no bearing.  Discarding a long gun with a live round in the chamber carries a penalty regardless of whether the action is open or closed. 

 

Discarding a long gun with a round in the chamber can't be corrected, so that concern also doesn't apply. Branchwater pointed that out with his quote from page 18 of the SHB.


How do 'we all know the round fell in the chamber'?  Regardless of whether it did or not see my first point, it's still the shooter's responsibility.  There is no benefit of the doubt to give to the shooter in this case.

 

Your last point is incorrect.  The reverse is true.  If any part of the round is in the chamber, it's considered to be chambered. 

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Branchwater Jack, I disagree. 17-18 does apply in that the shooter did correct the non-empty rifle prior to the next round being fired. It's the rest of the paragraph that should not apply since none of the "if this" "if that" applies.

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5 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Branchwater Jack, I disagree. 17-18 does apply in that the shooter did correct the non-empty rifle prior to the next round being fired. It's the rest of the paragraph that should not apply since none of the "if this" "if that" applies.

SHB 17-18

However, if the action is opened and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”. In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands.

 

If I understand your argument you're saying that at the time the rifle left the shooter's hands the round wasn't chambered, and/or you're saying that since the action was already open this rule doesn't apply.  If in fact those are your arguments then I'm going to respectfully point out that the fact as far as I've read there is no evidence to support your contention that the round fell into the chamber.  The extractor could just as easily have slipped off the rim of the cartridge.  Even if the round did slip into the chamber after it left the shooters hand the rule still applies.  The rule is saying that the penalty is applicable without remedy once the gun leaves the shooter's control, not that it's only applicable if the round is in the chamber when it leaves the shooter's hands.

 

Once you have a round in the chamber and the long gun is no longer under the shooter's control the penalty applies.  Also the fact that the action didn't need to be opened doesn't negate the penalty for a live round in the chamber with a cocked hammer.  

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I think what I'm saying is that 17-18 gives an exception for the shooter to correct the situation.

3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange.  This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired.

the rest of this paragraph only applies if the next round is fired. Although I do see your point that rule P 42 applies if it was observed on the table before the shooter picked it up. I'm not so sure that happened.

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40 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB 17-18

However, if the action is opened and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”. In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands.

 

If I understand your argument you're saying that at the time the rifle left the shooter's hands the round wasn't chambered, and/or you're saying that since the action was already open this rule doesn't apply.  If in fact those are your arguments then I'm going to respectfully point out that the fact as far as I've read there is no evidence to support your contention that the round fell into the chamber.  The extractor could just as easily have slipped off the rim of the cartridge.  Even if the round did slip into the chamber after it left the shooters hand the rule still applies.  The rule is saying that the penalty is applicable without remedy once the gun leaves the shooter's control, not that it's only applicable if the round is in the chamber when it leaves the shooter's hands.

 

Once you have a round in the chamber and the long gun is no longer under the shooter's control the penalty applies.  Also the fact that the action didn't need to be opened doesn't negate the penalty for a live round in the chamber with a cocked hammer.  

 

The 73 doesn't actually seat the round under the bolt until it closes in most circumstances. If you point the rifle down, even at slight angles, the round could easily travel into the chamber on a fairly clean rifle. The prop in question was a table at normal waist high. 

 

Don't know if everyone noticed, this penalty goes for shotguns also. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

Order is 10 pistol, 10 rifle, 4+ shotgun. Target engagement is unimportant for this post. Shoots pistols, shoots 8 rifle and lays rifle down on table with a live round in the chamber, action open and then moves to and picks up shotgun (no shells were loaded). At this point, the TO informs the shooter that there are two in the rifle. Shooter returns to rifle and the TO notices that there is a live round in the chamber. Shooter shoots the 2 rounds, moves to shotgun and finishes the stage.

 

Is there any call to be made or did the shooter have until the next gun to clear the rifle?

 

BTW, call made in the field was SDQ for leaving the shooters hands with a loaded round in the chamber.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Ace Hanlon said:

How would this apply to the situation

SDQ per page 68 of RO1

  • A live round left in the chamber of a long gun (as soon as it leaves the shooters hand)

 

SDQ was the correct call.  Earlier, squinting at my phone, it did not register with me that the round was chambered.   Does not matter if it slid off the carrier into the chamber, or various "what ifs".  We can only go by what is.

I need to not answer these until I learn to comprehend whole sentences...  :blink: 

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Good Grief!!  Here we go again.  "Where were you standing When" and :Whether or not you broke wind" on the way to the unloading table.  The penalty occurred the Second the shooter let go of the gun.  When, How, Why, What Time and the phase of the Moon and the next High Tide don't apply.  The penalty occurred the second the shooter broke contact with the gun PERIOD.  All of the foregoing "What If" crap..... is just that.  KRAP. 

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8 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

The 73 doesn't actually seat the round under the bolt until it closes in most circumstances. If you point the rifle down, even at slight angles, the round could easily travel into the chamber on a fairly clean rifle. The prop in question was a table at normal waist high. 

 

Don't know if everyone noticed, this penalty goes for shotguns also. 

 

 

I understand.  Based on what I know about the rules I don't think it matters whether the bolt pushed the round into the chamber or the round fell/slid into the chamber, what matters is that the round is in there which is considered unsafe.  Ultimately that is the shooter's responsibility.  I may be overruled later, but I would definitely call a SDQ for this. 

 

9 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Good Grief!!  Here we go again.  "Where were you standing When" and :Whether or not you broke wind" on the way to the unloading table.  The penalty occurred the Second the shooter let go of the gun.  When, How, Why, What Time and the phase of the Moon and the next High Tide don't apply.  The penalty occurred the second the shooter broke contact with the gun PERIOD.  All of the foregoing "What If" crap..... is just that.  KRAP. 

Yep you can lawyer it all you want the fact remains  a round in chamber and the rifle not under shooter's control = SDQ.  You have three RO Instructors agreeing on it as well as PWB liking one of those posts.  That's enough for me. 

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3 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

I think what I'm saying is that 17-18 gives an exception for the shooter to correct the situation.

the rest of this paragraph only applies if the next round is fired. Although I do see your point that rule P 42 applies if it was observed on the table before the shooter picked it up. I'm not so sure that happened.

Branchwater, Bill Burt and several others are correct, it doesn't matter how the live round got into the chamber. It's a SDQ as soon as it leaves the shooters hand/hands and is not correctable. A round can very easily slide into the chamber if you tilt the barrel down as you discard it. I had to call this on my traveling partner a few years ago at the Southeast Regional. Believe me it was a call I hated to make.

 

Randy

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After agonizing over this WTC and the similar one for shotgun hulls.   IMHO   As bad as it is I believe the only way to eliminate the argument is to NOT allow correcting the problem.  Once the gun leaves your hands, you earned the penalty, no going back to remove the hull, /cartridge.  An empty will get you a safety, while a loaded round SDQ.   Easy to understand and rule on.   Not before you fire next gun but when it leaves your hands.      GW

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By the way, I hate the empty hull/case rules.  Just have to learn to check first, run second.       GW

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15 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

The 73 doesn't actually seat the round under the bolt until it closes in most circumstances. If you point the rifle down, even at slight angles, the round could easily travel into the chamber on a fairly clean rifle. The prop in question was a table at normal waist high. 

 

Don't know if everyone noticed, this penalty goes for shotguns also. 

That's why you want to keep it down when you do the over-the-top reload. In that instance it's good...….in this one it was bad...…..lol It's an SDQ for sure. 

Quote

 

 

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Like the rule as it stands.  If you can correct an empty hull/case or live round on the carrier before the next round is fired you are ok.

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Ranger Dan, in response to your point.  I did not see the earlier conversation so I cannot comment for sure on the circumstances.  I will state in my case what happened was my (the shooter's) fault.  The round appeared to be in the chamber, when I picked up the rifle the round could have slid out to appear to be partially in.  Either way it was a safety issue with potential very bad results.  It was my fault and I accepted the SDQ as the rules state for live rounds in the chamber etc...  

 

Everyone let's not forget that you are responsible ultimately for safety issues.  We all have brain fades and make mistakes, I have even dropped an unloaded pistol in a State Championship which cost me dearly.  When all is said and done this is still a game and not worth having someone unduly hurt.  I would rather be given a SDQ or even a MDQ and have everyone go home safe then worry about where I finished in my category if I did something stupid.

 

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