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Creeker, SASS #43022

WTC - empty Hull left in shotgun.

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Sequence:

Pistols, Rifle, Shotgun.

Three positions (1,2,3) moving left to right.

Unloading table to the right.

 

Pistols are immaterial.

Rifle is shot and Restaged at position 2

Shooter completes the stage with shotgun - position 3.

After engaging all required SG targets; (stage is complete), shooter sets down their SxS shotgun at position 3 and returns to position 2 to retrieve their rifle prior to moving to the unloading table.

 

The shotgun had an empty hull in one chamber.  

Obviously the gun had left the shooters hand to be set down and walked away from.

 

But the RO card states the last gun has until it leaves the shooters hand AT THE UNLOADING table before penalty is incurred.

 

Is this operating on the assumption (incorrect in this circumstance), that when pertaining to the final firearm; the shooter would remain in contact with said firearm until the unloading table?

 

WTC?

And please support your position with the rule you would use to make the call.

 

 

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Shooter has until the next gun is engaged (cocked) or if last gun until set down at unloading table. No call.

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o If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area

SHB p.18 - "Safety & Handling Conventions – All Firearms"

(emphasis added)

 

 

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until the next type firearm is fired, not cocked

 

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So just to be clear...

In regard to the last gun used on stage - rifle or shotgun. 

The shooter is PERFECTLY ok and legal to set down the firearm on a valid staging location within the stage with casings/ hulls remaining on the carrier or in the chamber... 

Then they may freely wander around the stage retrieving other firearms, their hat, their dropped loading strip, etc. (Obviously, I am being excessive to stress the point)

And there is no call as long as they pick up the firearm, move to the unloading table and clear it before releasing the firearm at the unloading table?

 

Makes zero sense to me.

I am not questioning the rule that a firearm NOT discarded may be cleared up until the unloading table.

 

But a firearm discarded with empty cases is either dangerous and worthy of a safety penalty or it is not.

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Creeker,

Its my understanding that the part about "Until next firearm is cocked" is the determining factor.

 

In other words, if you lay that SG down with an empty in it DURING your stage run, you have time to

clear it (make safe) until you cock that next firearm.   That same curtesy is given when its the last firearm

until it 'leaves your hand' at the ULT.

 

..........Widder

 

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Hi Creeker,

 

I searched the rules on this subject and found what may be causing the problem in understanding.

 

On p. 16 of the SHB, it says, " “A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:

- Empty.”
 
Most people, :unsure: , would stop there and not search farther to find out that it does not apply if the SG is the last gun shot, per PWB's post. 
 
Regards,
 
Allie

 

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4 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Creeker,

Its my understanding that the part about "Until next firearm is cocked" is the determining factor.

 

In other words, if you lay that SG down with an empty in it DURING your stage run, you have time to

clear it (make safe) until you cock that next firearm.   That same curtesy is given when its the last firearm

until it 'leaves your hand' at the ULT.

 

..........Widder

 

Based on the wording of the ruling; I'm sure you are correct.

Just "seems" wrong.

But I have been wrong before and I apparently owe a certain Rio Salado shooter an apology.

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PS I'm not addressing the "is it safe or not," just trying to justify the call you are questioning. I question how to reconcile these two rules also.

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Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange.  This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired.  If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO.

SHB p.17

 

The rule previously cited from p.18 is a clarification to this as it pertains to the last long gun used on the stage.

 

 

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Wow! The plot thickens. Pages 16, 17, and 18 are all about a seemingly similar situation.

P. 16 It is only safe to release the SG empty.

P. 17 Expands that to until the next fire arm is fired it is safe to release it with an empty shell in it.

p. 18 Further states that you can lay it down if it is the last gun as long as you clear it before you reach the ULT.

 

I think we have a quandary for new shooters (and me), who on first reading of the books may only remember one or two of those things.

 

 

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The section on page 16 refers to "during a course of fire".

 

Quote

Course of fire – from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to last shot fired.

SHB p.43

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Dear PaleWolf,

 

I just forwarded, to my mailing list, this clarification from you on the empty in the SG as the last gun fired and I got this reply.

"Sorry Allie,  this stuff drives me nuts. Empty hull, empty gun. Loaded hull, loaded gun!  You have empty shells in the pistol on your hip. I’m always confused. " This was from someone I consider extremely intelligent, a long-time (over 20 years) SASS shooter, a former LEO/firearms instructor, and very knowledgeable about guns.

 

Please, do not be offended; but, we need to stop the confusion.  Creeker is no dummy (it may have once pained me to admit that, huh Creeker? ;) ) and this situation does not feel right to him. Just imagine how it would confuse a new shooter.

 

Your friend (I hope),

 

Allie Mo

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The "solution" in regard to the OP (and other "confusing" situations) would be to completely eliminate all penalties for EMPTIES in all firearms.

 

I personally don't foresee the WB ever signing off on such a rule change.

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9 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The "solution" in regard to the OP (and other "confusing" situations) would be to completely eliminate all penalties for EMPTIES in all firearms.

 

I personally don't foresee the WB ever signing off on such a rule change.

No, the solution would be that a firearm discarded with a empty in it is a penalty.  Period.

 

That once it leaves your hand - you have earned the safety.

 

This eliminates TO calling shooters back to grounded guns after they have moved or have begun to handle their next gun - which is infinitely more dangerous than leaving an empty hull in a shotgun.

 

It still maintains "the last gun fired may be cleared up to the point of being released at the unloading table" - it just simplifies the conditions of how a firearm may be discarded and the penalties thereof. 

Ergo; the last firearm may be cleared until it is released from the shooters hand at the unloading provided it was not previously discarded.

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That is not the only possible solution, although I have talked to people who think it is the best solution.

 

How about a rewrite of the rules with all of those "what ifs about the SG on one page instead of three.

 

For example, I know it is imperfect but it is an example:

The only safe manner for the SG to leave a shooter's hands:

  • is empty,
  • unless it is cleared before the next gun is fired
  • or, if it is the last gun, before it is set down at the unloading table. I still have concern over the clarity of that one.

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If the shotgun was the second firearm fired and a shooter took his hand off the shotgun/ or rifle with a hull/case and he was ready to draw a pistol as was told by the TO that he had  hull/case, wouldn't he be able to correct it as  as it was before a pistol was cocked?  I do not see where a empty is  so unsafe.  I know this is not a popular topic but there are other penalties such as a rifle on half cock or a pistol holstered on half cock where penalties are harsh.   I understand there are those who do not agree and the topic has been covered, but I see the penalty as a no call.  The TO should have told the shooter to finish the stage and move to the unloading table.

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9 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

The TO should have told the shooter to finish the stage and move to the unloading table.

Based on what has been clarified here and the current wording of the rule the TO should have done exactly that.

 

But the TO is a well known idiot (Creeker) and misapplied the rules;  incorrectly penalizing the shooter.

:blink:

 

I will try to do better in the future...

Or perhaps stick to target resetting.

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18 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Based on what has been clarified here and the current wording of the rule the TO should have done exactly that.

 

But the TO is a well known idiot (Creeker) and misapplied the rules;  incorrectly penalizing the shooter.

:blink:

 

I will try to do better in the future...

Or perhaps stick to target resetting.

Don’t be to hard on yourself. The Creeker sweep that you came up with is pure genius. Mad Dog Mark wrote it in a match awhile back.

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Creeker-It probably was shock have a shooter go back to pick up his rifle before finishing the stage.  In 8 years I don't think I have seen that one.  Didn't mean to be so critical.  Last week our club had a vertical stage and I set my rifle down on my foot after shooting it.  Never had that happen.  

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Now I got a headache!!:o

 

I would say no call but then again I've been wrong before!:lol:

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10 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

No, the solution would be that a firearm discarded with a empty in it is a penalty.  Period.

 

That once it leaves your hand - you have earned the safety.

 

This eliminates TO calling shooters back to grounded guns after they have moved or have begun to handle their next gun - which is infinitely more dangerous than leaving an empty hull in a shotgun.

 

It still maintains "the last gun fired may be cleared up to the point of being released at the unloading table" - it just simplifies the conditions of how a firearm may be discarded and the penalties thereof. 

Ergo; the last firearm may be cleared until it is released from the shooters hand at the unloading provided it was not previously discarded.

I disagree.  This solution still leaves us with a minor 'safety' violation for something that isn't unsafe in the least.  From my perspective the dilemma here is between removing a violation that really isn't unsafe at all, and creating situations where the TO sees what may be a hull/brass, or may be an unfired round and has to choose whether to call the shooter back.  As it stands now there is no choice, we call the shooter back to clear the gun if we see something in it. 

 

I don't think, there is a clear, 'best' solution.  Either way we still have potential situations to deal with as TOs.  Either have to decide if a round is live or not, or have to administer 10 second 'safety violations' for harmless spent hulls/brass. 

 

Maybe change the penalty to 5 seconds as a compromise.  It doesn't seem logical to have the same penalty for an empty hull as for a live round.

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Well, the TO is not responsible for the shooters actions, the shooter is. The TO is to assist the shooter but is not responsible for the shooters deeds or misdeeds. Sometimes the attempt to recall a shooter to remove an empty case/shell from a long gun creates a worse situation with the next firearm. The changing of the rule for closed discarded long guns was a good move as the rifle could be verified empty or not, at the end of the stage. Changing the rule for rounds left in an open discarded long gun would seem to follow the same logic. I believe I would be more concerned with the potential hazard of a closed long gun than an open long gun. However, there is often layers of safety rules in place to protect folks from injury. If we have rules, then we have to make the calls whether at monthly, annual, state, regional, national or international events. It's not being a hard@$$, it's teaching someone the rules. Mistakes are often the best learning moments. You ever forget to reload your shotgun belt or bring the wrong ammo/ no ammo to a match? How about mismatched pistols? I'm have been guilty each of the fore mentioned, once each. 

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For the OP, the stage is over, no more firearms are being used, No call. You have the opportunity to remove a hull DURING the stage before engaging the next firearm and avoid a safety penalty, why not now? No more guns to be used.

Personally, an empty is no danger; if an empty is left in a long gun (and verified as an empty when the stage is over) NO CALL. Remove the penalty. If we set a long gun down and it closes and we verify it was empty, its a no call, why not an EMPTY hull/brass casing? My opinion

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Personally .. I can't think of a reason to set a Shotgun down with a hull still in it.  Not at all.  I don't think any of the "Where were you standing When" should have any bearing.  It's real simple.  Before you let go of the Shotgun/Rifle/Cannon, be sure it's empty.  If the shooter lets go with a cartridge in the gun, PENALTY.  Keep it really Simple.

 

just my story.

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11 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

For the OP, the stage is over, no more firearms are being used, No call. You have the opportunity to remove a hull DURING the stage before engaging the next firearm and avoid a safety penalty, why not now? No more guns to be used.

Personally, an empty is no danger; if an empty is left in a long gun (and verified as an empty when the stage is over) NO CALL. Remove the penalty. If we set a long gun down and it closes and we verify it was empty, its a no call, why not an EMPTY hull/brass casing? My opinion

I tend to agree with you, but the flip side of the argument would be nobody shucking their hulls after they fire their last shotgun rounds.  If we had no penalty for a hull in the shotgun I would be willing to bet that pretty quick we would have the last two hulls in there fairly often.

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Yes, there are those, ya got a point there.

Funny how some tend to find any perceived millisecond. "Well, it doesn't say I can't" Really?

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 If we had no penalty for a hull in the shotgun I would be willing to bet that pretty quick we would have the last two hulls in there fairly often.

Exacto

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So, if I understand this correctly.  Shooter finishes the stage with shotgun.  Accidentally leaves a hull in said shotgun and sets it down to retrieve rifle from another shooting position.  With both firearms in hand, at the ULT, sets shotgun down to show rifle clear, that shooter THEN earns the penalty? 

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13 minutes ago, Clueless Bob said:

So, if I understand this correctly.  Shooter finishes the stage with shotgun.  Accidentally leaves a hull in said shotgun and sets it down to retrieve rifle from another shooting position.  With both firearms in hand, at the ULT, sets shotgun down to show rifle clear, that shooter THEN earns the penalty? 

 

That is exactly what this rule states:

 

Quote

If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area

SHB p.18 - "Safety & Handling Conventions – All Firearms"

(emphasis added)

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4 minutes ago, Clueless Bob said:

So, if I understand this correctly.  Shooter finishes the stage with shotgun.  Accidentally leaves a hull in said shotgun and sets it down to retrieve rifle from another shooting position.  With both firearms in hand, at the ULT, sets shotgun down to show rifle clear, that shooter THEN earns the penalty? 

 

Not correctly understanding..

It says nowhere that the said shooter laid the shotgun down

to show his rifle is clear at the unloading table..

So.. Still No call..

As long as he removed the empty shotgun shell

BEFORE turning loose of it at the ULT..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' SxS shooters would have to retrain an awful lot

of muscle memory to decide to leave empty hulls in to save

a fraction of a second..

We have it  TOO ingrained in our head to flick that SxS 

and get rid of those empties as soon as we pull the trigger on that last target..

Just sayin.. :huh:

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12 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

 

Not correctly understanding..

It says nowhere that the said shooter laid the shotgun down

to show his rifle is clear at the unloading table..

So.. Still No call..

As long as he removed the empty shotgun shell

BEFORE turning loose of it at the ULT..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' SxS shooters would have to retrain an awful lot

of muscle memory to decide to leave empty hulls in to save

a fraction of a second..

We have it  TOO ingrained in our head to flick that SxS 

and get rid of those empties as soon as we pull the trigger on that last target..

Just sayin.. :huh:

 

It was meant as an example as to when the penalty would be applied.

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2 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Yes, there are those, ya got a point there.

Funny how some tend to find any perceived millisecond. "Well, it doesn't say I can't" Really?

LOL.  When you get to the point where you measure gains in tenths of a second (I'm not there!) not shucking the last shotgun could be significant.  If it takes  2/10s to shuck then three stages that don't end with shotgun saves you a little over a half second.  That's a lot in our game for those competing at that level.

 

I just looked at the scores from River Bend yesterday and the difference between 1st and 2nd place was 1.41.  At South River last month the difference was 1.32.  Not shucking could take away half of that difference if the second place finisher exercised that option.

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I don't mean to say that top shooters shouldn't attempt to shave whatever they can... within rules, but if you are stretching rules to suit your actions, I pity you.

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On 5/4/2019 at 9:06 PM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

That is not the only possible solution, although I have talked to people who think it is the best solution.

 

How about a rewrite of the rules with all of those "what ifs about the SG on one page instead of three.

 

For example, I know it is imperfect but it is an example:

The only safe manner for the SG to leave a shooter's hands:

  • is empty,
  • unless it is cleared before the next gun is fired
  • or, if it is the last gun, before it is set down at the unloading table. I still have concern over the clarity of that one.

Yes Ma'am, on board with that.

 

That is a rewrite so it is broken down "Barney Style" seems that the SHB book could be tighten up/clarified and read less confusing. Find a lot of threads that reflect and discuss the understanding of it. All though on the plus side sure gives one an opportunity for a lot of discussions.

 

image.jpeg.a13402508dda31a56bdea98cae868967.jpeg

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