Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Recommended Posts

First shooter to the line..freshly painted targets, 2 spotters call a miss..shooter says where I count 20 hits  10 rifle & 10 pistol ]on the targets..yep he was right .

Besides changing the spotters !!! ..what do you do..eventually in this situation the TO said to have a think about it..they did & the shooter was given clean.

BUT what happens if they stuck with the call of one miss ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, shooter gets 1 miss; TO can't override spotters on misses. 

 

RO1 Pg. 48 

 



A TO does not have the authority to overrule the spotters in regard to missed, but 
can question spotters as to the location of misses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I've seen that happen more than once.   Two of the times they didn't change their mind and still called the miss...    I have learned to be careful who we posse with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All but the first shooter do not have the advantage of fresh painted targets. So, if you change it to a clean run for this first shooter it would be unfair for all the following participants with the same situation (2 spotters call a miss but the shooter is sure to be clean).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

  Monthlies I use as practice so I could care less  .At a major match I would have challenged the call . I also pay close attention to who I posse with for many reasons. ;) :FlagAm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Kiss the Cadillac bye bye  :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If you think its a miss, its a hit"  instructions to spotters at our monthly....benefit of the doubt goes to shooter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately the TO will sometimes override the spotters decision even though it is not permitted in the rules.  I have seen it done at a high level match a couple of times when all three spotters called a miss and NEVER had any doubt or changed their mind.  (Buddy System)

Blackfoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have seen freshly painted targets that still have old marks that people "think" are new. Especially around the edges......I have seen shooters that virtually hit the same place twice and a miss was attempting to be called because people were counting the bullet marks on freshly painted targets.

 

I think it's best to just spot and call em' like you see them...….. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like Junky stated, the Spotters have to call it like they see it.

 

The shooter has the right to challenge any call and can ask for the MD to make a judgement call

if he/she thinks its that important.

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like chickenpoop, but you really can't change your call based entirely on that.  Are you positive the targets were clean to begin with?  Are you positive a bullet didn't splatter or split and make 2 marks?  I've changed a miss to a hit a number of times even on old targets because after the fact I saw where there was a new edge hit that would explain the furrow of dirt I saw get kicked up.  But every range is different, not everyone sees that dirt shower. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

Monthlies I use as practice so I could care less  .At a major match I would have challenged the call . I also pay close attention to who I posse with for many reasons.

On a monthly match, the solution is for the shooter to be given the benefit of the doubt, call it clean and move on.   

Failing that, rather than make a big ruckus, the shooter ought to just go home, look at the score sheet afterwards, mentally subtracts the 5 seconds and figure that was his/her real rank position.  No big deal.  

 

On a bigger match, TO should look at the targets, seriously discuss them with the spotters, and give the shooter, in this case, the clear benefit of the doubt (especially if at least one other spotter saw it clean too) - - but the TO has to make the ultimate call - - and the TO maybe also needs to either wake up the spotters, or replace them. 

 

If this went to an appeal, and the spotters refused to change their call, even after seeing the evidence on the target plates, the probable outcome would be a "clean" call anyway, based on the empirical evidence.  So why not save the posse delays and disruption and call it clean to begin with.  

 

Regarding equity with other shooters, the TO has to make the call for each shooter, discussing the evidence with spotters in each particular case.   Mistakes always will get made, even by very good match officials.  Short of video tracking, there is no way around that--its just a part of our game.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Video replay will solve all these problems just ask MLB, NFL & NBA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you THINK it is a miss, it is a HIT.  Some spotters still don't get that especially with black powder shooters which is why I usually shoot first, especially on freshly painted targets.  Doesn't help if another posse has already shot the stage though. This isn't a life and death situation and no one is competing for the gold Cadillac, so PLEASE remember to get the benefit of doubt to the shooter.  Also some spotters are better than others especially when spotting for black powder shooters. Where they stand makes a big difference in what they see and how they call misses.  The spotters that make me angry are the ones that look to the other two spotters before showing their count and hold up the exact same number and weren't really watching while spotting.

 

Ramblin Gambler- some spotters see a furrow of dirt or dirt shower and IMMEDIATELY call it a miss especially with bp shooters when in reality it was a HIT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When TWO of the Spotters call it a Miss and none of the presenting evidence will change their mind, then

it is a Miss..... plain and simple.

 

When 'WE' go changing the spotters calls because we didn't agree with their assessment, then it won't

take long to have no volunteers to spot.

 

We play the game by the rules and when those Spotters are sure of their call, its gotta be that way.

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes there comes along a time when I can't tell if a shot was a hit or a miss.  Maybe I was in a bad position... whatever.  I can't tell.  I'm going to call it a hit, because I don't know it was a miss.  Yeah, the other two spotters held up 1 finger each.  I don't care.  I personally have to call it clean.

 

As far as the freshly painted target scenario, if I'm the T.O. and I can see 20 obvious "splats", I'll confer briefly with the spotters, but I won't over-rule them.  

 

As a black powder shooter, I've had my share of hits called misses.  Yes, it's frustrating.  I hope I've gotten a few breaks the other way.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Widder,

The key in the OP was that there were 20 hits on the freshly painted targets, so the  spotters need to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.  It is harder to tell if you're not the first shooter on freshly painted targets, but ALWAYS the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Some spotters do a GREAT job and watch carefully from positions that allow them to see hits and misses, but some think that spotting isn't so important, don't position themselves where they CAN SEE all the targets, and don't watch carefully, then just put up the same number of fingers that the other two spotters hold up.

 

Three spotters - one calls one miss, one calls two misses, and the third calls three misses. In my not so humble opinion, all three agreed on one miss, but two agreed on two misses so two it is unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. They need to discuss and look for evidence of where the hits are and which target (rifle or pistol) had the miss or misses before recording the number of misses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First shooter on Brand New ( never been Shot ) targets ,,,, place two shot on 5 targets any order with Revolvers at a Major SASS shoot ....

The call by two ,,, One miss the other called clean ... Even though there were clearly two bullet hit on the center of 4 targets (both with-in an inch of center) that all agreed had two hits ... The other target was hit dead center with hits forming a 8 shape both marks touching.... They both stuck to the call of one miss ,,,, because in their opinion Nobody shoots that good so one  bullet must made the paint flake in that shape ....  So the Call one miss ....

I my opinion this was being a hardass as both were standing right where the smoke was drifting to , talking ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life said:

Widder,

The key in the OP was that there were 20 hits on the freshly painted targets, so the  spotters need to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.  It is harder to tell if you're not the first shooter on freshly painted targets, but ALWAYS the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Some spotters do a GREAT job and watch carefully from positions that allow them to see hits and misses, but some think that spotting isn't so important, don't position themselves where they CAN SEE all the targets, and don't watch carefully, then just put up the same number of fingers that the other two spotters hold up.

 

Three spotters - one calls one miss, one calls two misses, and the third calls three misses. In my not so humble opinion, all three agreed on one miss, but two agreed on two misses so two it is unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. They need to discuss and look for evidence of where the hits are and which target (rifle or pistol) had the miss or misses before recording the number of misses.

 

Hi Lorelei.

Indeed, I agree.   But if there is No Doubt from those 2 spotters about the miss, and until SASS allows

a freshly painted target for only ONE shooter to override the majority of Spotters, then its still a Miss.

 

But, thats just the way I would call it.   Each Spotter has their criteria to determine their call(s).

I've met some Spotters who will call a Miss, even when an edger is proven.  The Spotter saw it as a Miss, no

doubt about it.

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing that bothers me is when a spotter calls a miss "because I didn't hear the ding."  Some targets ring louder than others, some are almost silent, and some hearing impaired spotters that wear hearing aids are almost deaf with hearing protection in their ears.  The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. If you THINK it is a MISS, it is a HIT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life said:

One thing that bothers me is when a spotter calls a miss "because I didn't hear the ding."  Some targets ring louder than others, some are almost silent, and some hearing impaired spotters that wear hearing aids are almost deaf with hearing protection in their ears.  The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. If you THINK it is a MISS, it is a HIT.

 

One of the reasons I prefer NOT to spot is because of my deafness..... yes, even with aids.   And you are again correct

in those targets ringing (or lack thereof).

 

Although I am SUPER observant and position myself to hopefully see where each shot hits, I try to make

sure I don't spot in a big match.   I will gladly TO, set targets, ULT officer, pick brass, and generate good

will on the posse.   But its wise to keep a spotters stick out of my hands due to my deafness.

But even with my deafness, as a spotter, I have served the shooter better than others who like to

socialize while 'spotting'.   I would refer to those folks as 'Spot Spotters'..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Page 24 Shooters Handbook -  Remember: The benefit of any doubt always goes to the shooter. 

 

I too don't count unless it is absolutely necessary as I too wear hearing aids and depending on the kind of timer, I sometimes even have to have the TO touch my shoulder when the timer goes off.  When I do have to spot due to very small posse, I'm super careful to WATCH the targets so I can tell if they were hit or not.  I keep my fingers hidden and don't look at the other spotters to see what they are showing.  I even try to tell the shooter which target or at least which gun, rifle or pistol, had the miss. Yes, there are some "Spot Spotters," but luckily they are usually outnumbered by excellent spotters that do an excellent job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems simple, but on here maybe not. Fresh targets, 20 hit marks, clean.

On here once a shooter said when he spots if he can't hear the ding he called a miss?????? Dead targets, or with cap and ball pure lead bullets they don't make a very loud ding.  You have to see the hit. Hearing it is a plus.

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Seems simple, but on here maybe not. Fresh targets, 20 hit marks, clean.

On here once a shooter said when he spots if he can't hear the ding he called a miss?????? Dead targets, or with cap and ball pure lead bullets they don't make a very loud ding.  You have to see the hit. Hearing it is a plus.

Ike

 

Likewise, if those 2 spotters saw the miss..... then they have to call it as such, regardless of how many splats

are showing on a target.

 

If we can't take the word of 2 spotters, they how can we take the word of others that there were absolutely

no marks or blotches of any kind on the targets?

We don't inspect targets for the 1st shooter.    Freshly painted targets are good IF there were no doubts.

But if those spotters saw the miss, they call it as such.

 

Let me interject this question:

Suppose all the targets are freshly painted and the shooter hits them all, spotters and TO agree for the CLEAN.

Then someone notices that one of the targets has one less splat and another target has one extra splat.

Do we use that to justify a 'P' when no one caught it during the stage run?

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fascinating...so a mark on a painted target is proof of....what exactly???? Did the posse go out and inspect each target to verify that the targets had complete paint coverage?

 

Come on folks...

 

Phantom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark on painted target is proof of a hit. How many times has a spotter said I saw an edger, when other spotters say miss?  They go out see the mark and call clean or no miss!

Freshly painted targets, 20 hits on the correct targets. No other scenario of splats and or double taps on wrong targets comes into play here.

Ike

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Phantom and Widder. 2 spotters call a miss, its a miss. That spot couldve come from anywhere, or may have been there when they started. Did anybody count for the 3rd shooter to make sure there were 60 marks on the targets?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last week ya'll argued that the TO was the ultimate and final authority on misses and P's. This week the To heard 2 misses and 1 no miss and his own no miss and called it clean after looking at targets with 20 hits, not foreign mystery marks from  a 12th dimension and before any other shooter shot the targets. TO took in the info, came to a conclusion. Why is this different than last weeks thread about a TO calling something no one else saw?

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Last week ya'll argued that the TO was the ultimate and final authority on misses and P's. This week the To heard 2 misses and 1 no miss and his own no miss and called it clean after looking at targets with 20 hits, not foreign mystery marks from  a 12th dimension and before any other shooter shot the targets. TO took in the info, came to a conclusion. Why is this different than last weeks thread about a TO calling something no one else saw?

Ike

Ike, don't you put on matches? Nobody said last week that the TO is the ultimate authority on misses unless they were wrong. The spotters are. TO cant over rule misses but can for Ps.

Overly simplified version:

TO=Ps

Spotters=misses

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah but the TO can ask the spotters "are you sure". What then OP doesn't say is after looking at the targets and counting the hits did the 2 spotters change their mind? The way its written it sounds like the TO counted the hits and made the call clean? Did he ask the original spotters or not. If not then he overruled the spotters on misses and thats not good.

 

Now back to last week the group posed that the TO is in the best position to see P's then why isn't the TO in the best position to see misses/hits and challenge the spotters if he believes they are wrong?

Just wondering

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Ah but the TO can ask the spotters "are you sure". What then OP doesn't say is after looking at the targets and counting the hits did the 2 spotters change their mind? The way its written it sounds like the TO counted the hits and made the call clean? Did he ask the original spotters or not. If not then he overruled the spotters on misses and thats not good.

 

Now back to last week the group posed that the TO is in the best position to see P's then why isn't the TO in the best position to see misses/hits and challenge the spotters if he believes they are wrong?

Just wondering

Ike

 

Sometimes, as a T.O. I may see a P that the spotters did not, or were unsure about.  If I see a P, and I know it's a P, it is only fair to all the other shooters that I call it.  (as in shooter engaging 3-1-1 when the sequence was supposed to be 2-2-1 and the spotters didn't catch it).  No, a T.O. does not need the spotter's approval to call it.  Them's the rules. 

The T.O. can also take the spotter's input under advisement.  Maybe they saw a P that I didn't.  Ok, that's fine.   But, sometimes I've had them want to call a P on something that the rules say is a miss, (like an ammo malfunction, that the shooter re-engaged the target and took the miss for the last target instead of reloading), or something that should be a no call.  It's my job as the R.O. to know the rules and apply them properly.   

 

As for misses, most of the time things just flow properly.  There's rarely a problem.  But sometimes, if I believe their call was questionable, I can certainly poll them.  

For instance, a shooter was awarded a miss recently, when I saw he hit all the targets.  When I asked the spotters, I got the response:

1.  "I'm not sure, he might have missed it."

2. "I think he missed the last rifle target."

3. "I didn't hear it hit."

Ok, the R.O. can't overrule the spotters, but one's not sure, one thinks, and one didn't hear it... those aren't calls, those are guesses.  So, if you're the R.O., what would you do?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life said:

One thing that bothers me is when a spotter calls a miss "because I didn't hear the ding."  Some targets ring louder than others, some are almost silent, and some hearing impaired spotters that wear hearing aids are almost deaf with hearing protection in their ears.  The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. If you THINK it is a MISS, it is a HIT.

 

6 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

One of the reasons I prefer NOT to spot is because of my deafness..... yes, even with aids.   And you are again correct

in those targets ringing (or lack thereof).

...

 

Wise Lorelei and Widder! We need hearing and vision to be good spotters.

 

I remember a monthly, probably 15+ years ago. Two new shooters (husband and wife) gave me 5 misses on dead targets. They were sure they didn't hear a ding. Neither of them had any doubt. SIGH! TO went with the rule of 2 out of 3. I knew better; but why argue. I'd have made two enemies and put Hubby (TO) in a bad position.

 

Funny, there have been so many stages I don't remember. That was one of the stages I remember. Also, I remember exactly who those two counters were. They are still shooting and I'm sure that they are better counters now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

#2 Poo happens........I got a few more for later  ;)

 

 

PS: I think I am on the plus side of the Merry Christmas calls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

McCandless,

As for misses, most of the time things just flow properly.  There's rarely a problem.  But sometimes, if I believe their call was questionable, I can certainly poll them.  

For instance, a shooter was awarded a miss recently, when I saw he hit all the targets.  When I asked the spotters, I got the response:

1.  "I'm not sure, he might have missed it."

2. "I think he missed the last rifle target."

3. "I didn't hear it hit."

Ok, the R.O. can't overrule the spotters, but one's not sure, one thinks, and one didn't hear it... those aren't calls, those are guesses.  So, if you're the R.O., what would you do?

If you THINK it is a MISS, it is a HIT.  SASS rule book p. 24

In this case, I would ask again after reminding the spotters of this RULE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well.. :mellow::huh:

I'm in the camp of "two misses" next shooter..

2 spotters called it that way.. 

Tryin' not to take a harda$$ attitude but..

There wasn't any "if you thinks" 

2 spotters called what they saw, heard etc..

The RO and shooter disputed the calls.. Fine.. Their prerogative.. Next shooter..

 

Me.. I don't mind spotting.. 

Many a time I've put a finger out to count for a miss..

and many times I've pulled it back in because I

had to instantly rethink about it..:huh:

If I have to rethink it.. It goes to the benefit of the shooter..

I always hold my counting hand behind my back so other spotters (hopefully) 

can't see my count.. 

I, also, hate for others spotters to wait for other spotters count

before displaying theirs..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I've had misses called on me when I thought I was clean??:rolleyes:

Hey.. Life goes on.. I took my misses and went on.. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.