WTC

[Widder, SASS #59054]

There have been a few times while I was the TO and when polling the spotters, as soon as one of them

would say... "I think he/she might have.........."  I immediately stop their comment and remind them that

a "I THINK" is a hit.

 

If you've competed long enough, you'll be given a few in your favor and you'll get some calls that go

against you, even if you didn't deserve them.   Just part of the game when you have to compete against

mere mortals........ 

 

..........Widder

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Mark on painted target is proof of a hit. How many times has a spotter said I saw an edger, when other spotters say miss?  They go out see the mark and call clean or no miss!

Freshly painted targets, 20 hits on the correct targets. No other scenario of splats and or double taps on wrong targets comes into play here.

Ike

 

It's proof of being hit...at some point.

 

If the spotter said he/she saw a edge hit (or any other type of hit), then they could go out and show the mark. There by relating a mark with an actual observed hit.

 

Otherwise...it's just proof of nothing more that the target was hit sometime in the past.

 

Phantom

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

The RO never disputed the spotters, he did ask them to evaluate their decision..no different to a edge hit that a spotter in a better position may have seen..targets were FULLY covered with paint..there were 20 clear hits !!

Spotters I think  did the right thing & were definitely not pushed to change their mind.

Yes the RO watches, counts the shots & if necessary  assists the shooter thru the course of fire, he/she  doesn't worry about misses but  part of watching the shooter [ not the targets..as a lot do ! ] is knowing where the muzzle is pointing so if you have to you can quickly tell the shooter which target etc..the shooter in this case was 'Clean ...nuff' said.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Isn't that what I said? If a hit was observed then go down range and show the others. Then the miss becomes a hit. Just like 20 shots being counted on clean painted targets.

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Mohawk, that what I said. If the TO asked the spotters about their call and then had them count hits. They changed their minds, the TO didn't override their calls.

 

Ike

[Equanimous Phil]

Fresh painted targets are of course very helpful to spot hits and misses for spotters while spotting the shots. But it's imho not for investigation for investigators afterwards, except you spray them after every shooter and it's predefined to look at them after the stage run, but then you also had to consider such situations:

 

14 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Suppose all the targets are freshly painted and the shooter hits them all, spotters and TO agree for the CLEAN.

Then someone notices that one of the targets has one less splat and another target has one extra splat.

Do we use that to justify a 'P' when no one caught it during the stage run?

 

Maybe sometimes splatters would provide absolutely clear evidence (for or against a shooter), but so would a video someone made in some cases.... Video/audio and pictures will never be allowed as evidence according SHB, maybe the list should get extended..?

 

Equanimous

[Cowboy Junky]

17 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Fascinating...so a mark on a painted target is proof of....what exactly???? Did the posse go out and inspect each target to verify that the targets had complete paint coverage?

 

Come on folks...

 

Phantom

That was my point as well.....  Many of the state level matches around here the posse paint the targets after every stage. I paint our targets for the first stage at every monthly and am REALLY generous with the paint and sometimes even then there is a edge hit, bullet mark, etc that's not really covered to the point it could raise doubt. During the state matches where the posse paints the targets there are many lightly cover and missed impacts on those. 

 

I doubt the targets were closely looked at for any marks like that before the shooter started because no one probably cared at that point. I have walked up to freshly painted stages and saw bullet marks not all covered many times. I never thought as a PM or TO to go tell someone to repaint that one bullet mark on P2....and that edger on R1 just in case we have a questionable call on the first shooter.

 

Like I said I have seen this exact thing play out where the targets were painted but not to the point that every impact was covered so well there could be no confusion at all. Then I have seen spotters try to use the less covered marks, edges etc as evidence of what happened for the first shooter. 

 

The targets could have been painted great but they just have easily could have been another mark that was over looked because it wasn't important to the painters to cover every mark.....they are just freshing up the targets. My only point is I really have seen this play out both ways...…...ones where I felt like it was correct and others where I felt like the paint was misleading. So IMO you ask the spotters and go with that......not what the paint says. 

 

The only miss I had a FL state a few years ago (that cost me dearly) was a hit......the bullet hit the bottom edge of the target and ricocheted down......on video you could literally see the impact on the target, hear it hit and then see the splash in the water behind the target. All the spotter's saw the water splash and called it a miss...…..My point is it's never going to be perfect and IMO the shooter's get the benefit of doubt much more often than they get a bad call so try not to let it get to you. 

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

15 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Last week ya'll argued that the TO was the ultimate and final authority on misses and P's.

Ike

Negative, ghostrider. The TO is the ultimate authority on Ps. Not Misses.

 

SHB PG 23

Quote

The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and
procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses).
Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters.

 

SHB Pg 20

Quote

Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to
verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.
A minimum of three spotters are required – majority 2/3 breaks any ties in
regards to misses.

 

ROI Pg 48 (emphasis added)

Quote

 

 

The Timer Operator is IN CHARGE of the Firing Line.

• The TO verifies at least 2 of the 3 spotters agree on misses, and can consider input from the spotters regarding procedurals and/or safety violations- as well as any personal observations during the stage.
• A TO does not have the authority to overrule the spotters in regard to misses, but can question spotters as to the location of misses.
• The TO is often in the best position to see the direction of the muzzle, which is helpful in determining edge hits.
• Final assessment regarding the assessment of penalties is made by the TO.

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:28 AM, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

First shooter to the line..freshly painted targets, 2 spotters call a miss..shooter says where I count 20 hits  10 rifle & 10 pistol ]on the targets..yep he was right .

Besides changing the spotters !!! ..what do you do..eventually in this situation the TO said to have a think about it..they did & the shooter was given clean.

BUT what happens if they stuck with the call of one miss ?

 

May I just also add that this exact WTC just might show up as a test question if anyone just happens to wonder when they take their next ROI class or a refresher...That is what the little star on the view graph on page 48 reminds us, anyway.

 

[Ranger Clayton Conagher #43872]

Had it happen to me at a sate match.  Two spotters call miss and the third walked over and showed them where I nicked the target.  I got a miss..  Was told I could protest but I'm never going to win anything.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

And that's exactly how it is supposed to work, the three spotters deciding. You may have very well had a hit taken away but if two are sure, they decide.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Read the response about how it was determined the shooter was clean from Painted Mohawk

"The RO never disputed the spotters, he did ask them to evaluate their decision..no different to a edge hit that a spotter in a better position may have seen..targets were FULLY covered with paint..there were 20 clear hits !!

Spotters I think  did the right thing & were definitely not pushed to change their mind.

Yes the RO watches, counts the shots & if necessary  assists the shooter thru the course of fire, he/she  doesn't worry about misses but  part of watching the shooter [ not the targets..as a lot do ! ] is knowing where the muzzle is pointing so if you have to you can quickly tell the shooter which target etc..the shooter in this case was 'Clean ...nuff' said".

Clean painted targets, spotters were asked to review hits on fresh "fully painted" targets, spotters came to the conclusion no misses, RO reported clean. This is what is supposed to happen if a shooter, another spotter, or the RO/TO thinks the call was wrong. Spotters called and then corrected their error. AFter the first shooter it would be anybodies guess on what was or wasn't hit.

Once we had the actual circumstances of how they arrived at "clean" the WTC became easier to understand.

Ike

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Ok, bla, bla, bla they decided clean (made the decision amongst the spotters, though prompted by the TO)... right call, right procedure.

But the OP question was "but what happens if they stuck with the call of one miss?" The answer to the original OP question is ONE MISS, call stands.

TO, shooter, other spotter or the shooter's mom can ask the spotters to reconsider, but if they stand on their original call, it stands.

Appeal as you (the shooter) see fit.

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:37 AM, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Video replay will solve all these problems just ask MLB, NFL & NBA

 

Any re-broadcast or description of this match without the expressed or written consent of the club, match director, or SASS is strictly prohibited  

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

2 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Ok, bla, bla, bla they decided clean (made the decision amongst the spotters, though prompted by the TO)... right call, right procedure.

But the OP question was "but what happens if they stuck with the call of one miss?" The answer to the original OP question is ONE MISS, call stands.

TO, shooter, other spotter or the shooter's mom can ask the spotters to reconsider, but if they stand on their original call, it stands.

Appeal as you (the shooter) see fit.

  Only took 47 responses to discover what most already knew Winter is dragging on this year  Good answer and about time . 

[Ramblin Gambler]

On 4/29/2019 at 11:28 AM, Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life said:

One thing that bothers me is when a spotter calls a miss "because I didn't hear the ding."  Some targets ring louder than others, some are almost silent, and some hearing impaired spotters that wear hearing aids are almost deaf with hearing protection in their ears.  The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. If you THINK it is a MISS, it is a HIT.

 

Well, when you shoot, sound is often the only indicator we have.  You need to load little speakers into your bullets.  Or just get in the habit of saying "DING" every time you pull the trigger. 

 

On 4/29/2019 at 3:01 PM, Tennessee williams said:

I agree with Phantom and Widder. 2 spotters call a miss, its a miss. That spot couldve come from anywhere, or may have been there when they started. Did anybody count for the 3rd shooter to make sure there were 60 marks on the targets?

 

Depending on the target sequence, I can usually keep track like that through the first 4 shooters.  But that's not fair to everyone else, so I don't make that my official count.  I remember once I had Miss Lorelei clean.  Then I counted the spots on the targets before the next shooter and there were only 19.  I'm pretty sure she just put 2 shots in the same hole though, so need to try to change my call. 

 

There are so few cody dixon shooters that I can count hits after the fact for all of them if needed.  And sometimes it is needed cause they take so danged long. 

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

Easy, just ask the spotters if they're sure about their call.

Are you sure it was a miss......?    Spotter well er I think it was,.... OK lets be sure.......do you THINK or do you KNOW? One or the other?

TO makes the call on his/hers/their  one word answer.! Next shooter.

[Cowboy Junky]

19 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Read the response about how it was determined the shooter was clean from Painted Mohawk

"The RO never disputed the spotters, he did ask them to evaluate their decision..no different to a edge hit that a spotter in a better position may have seen..targets were FULLY covered with paint..there were 20 clear hits !!

Spotters I think  did the right thing & were definitely not pushed to change their mind.

Yes the RO watches, counts the shots & if necessary  assists the shooter thru the course of fire, he/she  doesn't worry about misses but  part of watching the shooter [ not the targets..as a lot do ! ] is knowing where the muzzle is pointing so if you have to you can quickly tell the shooter which target etc..the shooter in this case was 'Clean ...nuff' said".

Clean painted targets, spotters were asked to review hits on fresh "fully painted" targets, spotters came to the conclusion no misses, RO reported clean. This is what is supposed to happen if a shooter, another spotter, or the RO/TO thinks the call was wrong. Spotters called and then corrected their error. AFter the first shooter it would be anybodies guess on what was or wasn't hit.

Once we had the actual circumstances of how they arrived at "clean" the WTC became easier to understand.

Ike

Which also proves what I said......more times (right OR wrong) the benefit goes to the shooter more often than not. So if you do get a "bad" call let it go......you probably had many many more "bad" calls that went in yer' favor. 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

If its a monthly and no KIA on the line then yes. But if its Winter Range and 5 seconds can drop you a bunch of places. Then I would ask the TO for some consideration.

Ike

[Grey Beard]

Everyone gets a wrong call on hits and misses once in a while.  Sometimes to our benefit, sometimes not but in the end it generally averages out.  Having said that when we spot, we owe it to the shooter to do everything we can to make the right call.  At times that means a discussion amongst the spotters to get it right but at the end of the day it's the spotters who decide what the call should be based on all the evidence.  If they decide not to change their call then it stands despite what the TO and the rest of the posse may think.  

[Hoss]

I like to have 2 indicators for a miss. No ding and see dirt fly behind the target, no target movement. If I see dirt fly I try to look at the angle for an edger possibility. 

I onlu need 1 indicator for a hit. A ding, target moves, or no dirt flying. If Im not 100% sure then it’s a hit. 

Its tougher on round count stages, especially when you can’t see the shooter. Then it’s mostly listen for clangs and watch for dirt. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Also, it is tougher n ranges where the targets are in grass or weeds - no dirt flying then much.

[Hoss]

My favorite miss story  I was shooting Cody Dixon with a 45-70.  last rifle target was a chicken hung on chains.  shot stage clean, 1 counter said a miss. I asked her what i missed, she said the chicken.  I looked at the chicken and it was still dancing at the end of the chains. I pointed that out to her and she still thought i missed it.  Fortunately the other 2 counters had it right. 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Also, it is tougher n ranges where the targets are in grass or weeds - no dirt flying then much.

And tougher yet with dead targets and soft round balls out of a .36 Navy.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

On 5/1/2019 at 1:05 PM, Hoss said:

I like to have 2 indicators for a miss. No ding and see dirt fly behind the target, no target movement. If I see dirt fly I try to look at the angle for an edger possibility. 

I onlu need 1 indicator for a hit. A ding, target moves, or no dirt flying. If Im not 100% sure then it’s a hit. 

Its tougher on round count stages, especially when you can’t see the shooter. Then it’s mostly listen for clangs and watch for dirt. 

You could have hit the chain...

[Bones Z]

On 4/29/2019 at 5:01 AM, Equanimous Phil said:

All but the first shooter do not have the advantage of fresh painted targets. So, if you change it to a clean run for this first shooter it would be unfair for all the following participants with the same situation (2 spotters call a miss but the shooter is sure to be clean).

 

So, "don't believe your lying eyes"? This makes zero sense. You literally have proof that the call was an error.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 hours ago, Bones Z said:

 

So, "don't believe your lying eyes"? This makes zero sense. You literally have proof that the call was an error.

Marks on "freshly paint targets" are not proof that the first shooter hit the target.

 

Phantom

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Marks on "freshly paint targets" are not proof that the first shooter hit the target.

 

Phantom

Mate I agree with that but if we look at benefit of the doubt going to the shooter then I think the end result was a fair one !!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

18 minutes ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

Mate I agree with that but if we look at benefit of the doubt going to the shooter then I think the end result was a fair one !!

Only if a spotter SEZ they think they saw it hit where the mark is ... IMHO.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

On 4/29/2019 at 5:28 AM, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

First shooter to the line..freshly painted targets, 2 spotters call a miss..shooter says where I count 20 hits  10 rifle & 10 pistol ]on the targets..yep he was right .

Besides changing the spotters !!! ..what do you do..eventually in this situation the TO said to have a think about it..they did & the shooter was given clean.

BUT what happens if they stuck with the call of one miss ?

 

Howdy PM.

This thread got sidelined with the 'what if's and so forth.   But your actual question concerned what would

happen if those spotters stuck with their one miss call.

 

That has been answered..... it would be 1 miss, Plain and simple.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that a TO can't question the spotters (without pressure) to ensure they

are positive of their decisions.  We often have spotters who show proof of an edger and if that causes a

spotter to 'have doubt', then the spotter(s) can make their final call based on that info.

 

But if those 2 spotters, in the scenario you shared with us, had both maintained a 1 miss call, the shooter

is suppose to be awarded that call.   I don't see anything in our rules that mandate otherwise.

 

..........Widder

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Okay...

 

If you know it's a hit, it's a hit.

If you think it's a hit, it's a hit.

If you think it's a miss, it's a hit.

If you know it's a miss, it's a miss.

 

With in that proviso, there have been times even with a far from freshly painted target, when I have seen an edge shot happen.   The other 2 spotters called a miss and I piped up and said, "There was an edge shot," and I walked out to the target and pointed to the mark that was not there before the shooter started that I saw be created.   I have also seen other spotters do the same thing.  Every time the spotters when from miss to hit of their own accord.  This is a rare phenomenon, but it does happen once in a blue moon.   Heck, one time I was the shooter and had an edger.  I actually shouted out, "THAT WAS A HIT," and continued on.  It was called a miss by all three spotters and I said, "What about that edge shot on target 3?"  They all went and looked and I was given the hit.

 

Let the circumstances of the occurrence and the honesty of the spotters make the call.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

33 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Okay...

 

If you know it's a hit, it's a hit.

If you think it's a hit, it's a hit.

If you think it's a miss, it's a hit.

If you know it's a miss, it's a miss.

 

With in that proviso, there have been times even with a far from freshly painted target, when I have seen an edge shot happen.   The other 2 spotters called a miss and I piped up and said, "There was an edge shot," and I walked out to the target and pointed to the mark that was not there before the shooter started that I saw be created.   I have also seen other spotters do the same thing.  Every time the spotters when from miss to hit of their own accord.  This is a rare phenomenon, but it does happen once in a blue moon.   Heck, one time I was the shooter and had an edger.  I actually shouted out, "THAT WAS A HIT," and continued on.  It was called a miss by all three spotters and I said, "What about that edge shot on target 3?"  They all went and looked and I was given the hit.

 

Let the circumstances of the occurrence and the honesty of the spotters make the call.

You shouldn't have done that...IMHO. You are not a spotter.

 

Spotting is tough enough...

 

Phantom 

 

PS: And yes, I've done the same and feel bad about doing so.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

If I saw 20 bullet marks on freshly painted targets where there should be 20 hits. I would doubt there was a miss. Where there is doubt, benefit goes to the shooter.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

If I saw 20 bullet marks on freshly painted targets where there should be 20 hits. I would doubt there was a miss. Where there is doubt, benefit goes to the shooter.

So the first shooter on painted targets gets a benefit unavailable to others? Or do we start counting all the hits on the targets as we go along?

 

Something doesn't ring right with that. If you're a spotter and you see a clean miss, and the shooter says "Count the hits"...you changing your mind?

 

Phantom

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So the first shooter on painted targets gets a benefit unavailable to others? Or do we start counting all the hits on the targets as we go along?

 

Something doesn't ring right with that. If you're a spotter and you see a clean miss, and the shooter says "Count the hits"...you changing your mind?

 

Phantom

If I thought I saw a miss, there would be doubt. If I know I saw a clean miss, it would be a miss.

 

Happy now?