Curious as to the "why" of a rule

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

Am helping a new shooter join the ranks of SASS and he wondered why the Ruger Single Seven in 327 Mag was not allowed

 

My answer was, "it's not in the rule book."  Hey, I read it now and then.

 

he counted with, "well, why not?"

 

So I said something about it not being a copy of anything that was available back in the day--mainly the 7 holes in the cylinder.  

 

He politely pointed out the Ruger Vaqueros, Ruger Old Armies and noted that there are a number of revolver that are allowed but are not copies.  

 

Not wanting to say, "Because we said so, thanks why!"  I am turning to the vast knowledge base for some answers.

 

He did say that since the Old Ruger Single 6 .32s are no longer made it would be nice to be able to use the .327s.  He did not use this as a  reason why they should be allowed, though--he was just making a statement.

 

I can sorta see his point but I also know what our rules say

 

little help guys

 

cheyenne

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

[Patagonia Pete]

Rather than get into a discussion about copy justification ... etc with your friend ... Why not just state page 39 of the current handbook where it says ... ??  

- Center-fire and rim-fire cylinders may have no less than five and no more than six chambers.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

7 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

Not wanting to say, "Because we said so, thanks why!"  I am turning to the vast knowledge base for some answers.

 

 

Center-fire and rim-fire cylinders may have no less than five and no more than six

chambers. 

 

Okay, that's the rule in question.   As to why that is the rule.

 

Well...   As unsatisfactory as it may be, "Because we said so,"  is the answer.   Why is the Winchester 97 legal, but the 93, 93/97, Spencer and Burgess pumps are not?  (The Marlin 98 is not allowed for safety reasons)   Because that's the rule.

 

Why is the Winchester 95 not allowed in long range side matches?   Because that's the rule.

 

Why is  __________ ?   Because that's the rule.

 

As to the logic or reasoning as to WHY these are the rules, I don't know if anyone can say.   They simply are what they are.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

 

The final "opinion" was that a seven-shot cartridge revolver is not allowed under current rules.

(August 2016). There was virtually no interest in changing the rules to accommodate them.

A "Firearm Modification Consideration" explaining the possible benefits of allowing them was never submitted (email inquiry only).

Allowing them would require a rule change pending approval by the Territorial Governors.

Previous discussion (2014) indicated no interest in approving an exception to the rules or adding the issue to the next TG Summit agenda for further discussion.

Handling of a 7-shot revolver would require additional oversight at the loading and unloading tables to verify that the revolver was "short-loaded" with only five rounds.

The ONLY benefit would be to those (very few) shooters who wish to use one or two in SASS competition.

 

excerpt from ROC discussions (Nov 2017)

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

20 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Handling of a 7-shot revolver would require additional oversight at the loading and unloading tables to verify that the revolver was "short-loaded" with only five rounds.

 

The ONLY benefit would be to those (very few) shooters who wish to use one or two in SASS competition.

 

Thank you, PaleWolf, for posting the "explanation."   It gives some good insight into how things are decided.    But I have to admit that the one that I quoted seems kind of a weak argument.   The 7 Shot Nagant is allowed and it's not a problem with that gun and not a lot of people want to use it.

 

(Just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I have no horse in this race.  But I have used my Nagants.    )

 

 

[Patagonia Pete]

16 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Thank you, PaleWolf, for posting the "explanation."   It gives some good insight into how things are decided.    But I have to admit that the one that I quoted seems kind of a weak argument.   The 7 Shot Nagant is allowed and it's not a problem with that gun and not a lot of people want to use it.

 

(Just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I have no horse in this race.  But I have used my Nagants.    )

 

 

You're right ... that's a bunch of crap isn't it?? The Nagant is 7 shot and 7.62mm (30 caliber) which doesn't meet the minimum bullet diameter requirement. 

"Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber."

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

20 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

You're right ... that's a bunch of crap isn't it?? The Nagant is 7 shot and 7.62mm (30 caliber) which doesn't meet the minimum bullet diameter requirement. 

"Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber."

 

The Nagant uses a .312" bullet, which by our strange definitions is a .32 caliber.   ".30 caliber" cartridges generally use .308" bullets.  I've often felt that both are more accurately .31's, but that's not the way we "define" them.     And yes, 7.62mm is .308" and 7.91 is .311" but the Europeans were no more accurate with their designations than we were.  

 

I *believe* that the .32 caliber rule was instituted to disallow the use of revolvers chambered for .30 Carbine.  Which is ironic for I vaguely remember a post from a few years back that mentioned it was the caliber of the first round fired in the first ever SASS match.

 

Bunch of crap?   Eh, I don't know that I'd go that far.  I will say that it's one of those quirky rules that I thinks make no sense, but that's as far as I'll go.  There are a lot of things that are not allowed in our game that I feel should be, at least in a side match, or that I disagree with.   I've never been shy about saying so, or stating my opinion that they should be changed, but I always try to do so logically and with respect, while acknowledging that they rules as they currently exist are what we must abide by.    People who have seen me post over the years may tell you that in the earlier days of my tenure here that I was not as "proper" in expressing some of my ideas as I now try to be.  Hopefully they see the difference! 

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

From a previous inquiry on the TG Wire (2011):

 

Quote

On page 10 of the latest edition of the Shooter's Handbook under "OTHER APPROVED FIREARMS", the last bullet says, "Original or replica Nagant Single Action Revolver."

Does this refer to the Russian Nagant Model 1895 revolver?

YES. Specific approval was required as it is a 7-shot centerfire revolver.

 

This revolver uses a unique cartridge that has the bullet recessed inside the cartridge case. I think Fiocchi is the only company loading this round.

(see THIS ARTICLE on the 7.62x38mmR)

 

On page 12 of the Shooter's Handbook under "AMMUNITION", the 4th bullet says, "Ammunition with bullets recessed below the case mouth is disallowed."

Is the Nagant exempt?

YES...7.62x38mmR ammo would be exempt as it it proprietary to the approved firearm.

 

There are replacement cylinders available that use the .32 ACP, but is this an acceptable modification?

YES.

 

To further confuse the picture, there is the 7.5 mm Swedish Nagant revolver. This revolver dates from 1887 and uses a 105 grain bullet that has the bullet seated outside the cartridge case.

Probably NOT covered under the "approval"...the Swedish Nagant is a Double Action revolver...it would depend on whether it is as easily converted to SA as the DA version of the Russian (which, IIRC, was the only model "on the table" when the allowance was considered)

 

The NAGANT was added to the list of "OTHER APPROVED FIREARMS" in the 2005 SHB after going through the approval process; including a vote by the Territorial Governors,

[Patagonia Pete]

2 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

> snip <

Bunch of crap?   Eh, I don't know that I'd go that far.  I will say that it's one of those quirky rules that I thinks make no sense, but that's as far as I'll go.

> snip <

Great informative response ... Thanks!! You are a diplomat. The game (and the rules) evolve. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

11 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Great informative response ... Thanks!! You are a diplomat. The game (and the rules) evolve. 

Thank you.

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

 I only wish some of the neanderthals  I deal with would finally evolve.  

[Yul Lose]

1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Center-fire and rim-fire cylinders may have no less than five and no more than six

chambers. 

 

Okay, that's the rule in question.   As to why that is the rule.

 

Well...   As unsatisfactory as it may be, "Because we said so,"  is the answer.   Why is the Winchester 97 legal, but the 93, 93/97, Spencer and Burgess pumps are not?  (The Marlin 98 is not allowed for safety reasons)   Because that's the rule.

 

Why is the Winchester 95 not allowed in long range side matches?   Because that's the rule.

 

Why is  __________ ?   Because that's the rule.

 

As to the logic or reasoning as to WHY these are the rules, I don't know if anyone can say.   They simply are what they are.  

Kinda like 16gauge 1897’s not being allowed in WB. I’ve asked many Why? and as yet haven’t received an answer.

[Sedalia Dave]

Keep in mind when SASS started other than original Colts the only option for single action revolvers up to the rigors of CAS shooting were Rugers. The Italian clones we buy today were for the most part poorly made and very unreliable when SASS got its start.

 

Also consider that the line has to be drawn somewhere and like it or not here is where its at.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Yul Lose,  The reason 16 gauge 97's are NOT allowed in WBAS is because the Wild Bunch made it clear to me when I was writing the original rules that they were NOT allowed and would never be.  (I had 2  16 gauge  97's and wanted to allow them.)  I also have a custom built 20 gauge 97 that I had made for Copper Queen we cannot use even in CAS.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Keep in mind when SASS started other than original Colts the only option for single action revolvers up to the rigors of CAS shooting were Rugers. The Italian clones we buy today were for the most part poorly made and very unreliable when SASS got its start.

 

Also consider that the line has to be drawn somewhere and like it or not here is where its at.

Not 100% accurate.  There were several other options to the Colt, Ruger and various Italian clones at the beginnings of cowboy action shooting.  One was the Virginia Arms Dragoons, arguably better built than Rugers of the day.  And, actually a couple of the European clones were capable of handing the rigors of Cowboy Action Shooting.  But, then as well as now... they are all improved with a quality action job that includes improving the timing of the bolt/cylinder lockup.  And that includes both Colt and Ruger single actions.

2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I *believe* that the .32 caliber rule was instituted to disallow the use of revolvers chambered for .30 Carbine.  Which is ironic for I vaguely remember a post from a few years back that mentioned it was the caliber of the first round fired in the first ever SASS match.

As to the first round ever fired in a SASS match... that would be false.  The first ever SASS match didn't occur until 1987 when SASS was formed.   The outlawing of the .30 Carbine in cowboy action shooting predates that.  However, the first EOT was won with a .30 Carbine Ruger... (probably why it was outlawed)...   The .30-30 was outlawed as a main match caliber in 1985... also pre-SASS.

 

The 1895 Winchester is not allowed in long range matches because it is not a tubular magazine fed rifle.  I believe that if you look at at pg 31 of the current Shooter's Handbook, you will see the requirement for tubular magazines on all lever action long range rifles.  

Quote

Lever action rifles used in long-range matches, whether revolver or rifle calibers, must be
originals or replicas of rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until
1899. Lever or slide action, tubular feed, exposed hammer rifles or carbines are allowed,
providing they are in safe working condition.

What could possibly be clearer?  Besides, the cartridges found in the 1895 present a significant performance jump over the class of rounds in tubular magazine rifles.  And, it every instance this is brought up, it is recognized that the reason for the request is that the person either has one, or desires that performance advantage over other competitors.   Often, both conditions apply.

[Yul Lose]

19 minutes ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

Yul Lose,  The reason 16 gauge 97's are NOT allowed in WBAS is because the Wild Bunch made it clear to me when I was writing the original rules that they were NOT allowed and would never be.  (I had 2  16 gauge  97's and wanted to allow them.)  I also have a custom built 20 gauge 97 that I had made for Copper Queen we cannot use even in CAS.

Ah, I see, one of those” because I said so rules”. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

22 minutes ago, Griff said:

...

  And, it every instance this is brought up, it is recognized that the reason for the request is that the person either has one, or desires that performance advantage over other competitors.   Often, both conditions apply.

 

That is the basis for the majority of firearm, modification, and equipment allowances.

The current "Modification Allowance" form includes the following requirements to be considered:

Quote

 

...

Describe Merit of Firearm, Part, or Modification to the SASS® Sport of Cowboy Action Shooting:

...

...The committees will look at the viability, overall need, and the competitive aspects of all submittals.

...

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Quote

Lever action rifles used in long-range matches, whether revolver or rifle calibers, must be
originals or replicas of rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until
1899. Lever or slide action, tubular feed, exposed hammer rifles or carbines are allowed,
providing they are in safe working condition.

What could possibly be clearer?  Besides, the cartridges found in the 1895 present a significant performance jump over the class of rounds in tubular magazine rifles.  And, it every instance this is brought up, it is recognized that the reason for the request is that the person either has one, or desires that performance advantage over other competitors.   Often, both conditions apply.

 

 

Right, that's the rule.    You can't use the 95 for that reason, because it's the rule.  

However, I don't buy the notion that the rounds fired in the 95 are all that much greater performance wise than the ones found in the 94 or the 86.  

 

Okay, yeah, the 95 was chambered for the .30-'06 and that is a much more high performance round compared to the various rimmed cartridges that the rifle was offered in.   But I'd also wager that given how a lot of us tend to "download" even our long range rifles, is that advantage still there?   But for that matter, if you can hit the target with a 94 in .30-30 or an 86 in .45-70, how does using a 95 chambered in .30-40 or .405 Winchester at the exact same targets and distance, and with the same type of sights, have any kind of an advantage?  

 

Even so, the more logical answer is allow the 95, but not the .30-'06 or .30-'03 chambering.

 

Heck, I don't have one, but also argue for the inclusion of the Savage 99.

 

And possibly the Krag and the Winchester Hotchkiss.

[Griff]

6 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

However, I don't buy the notion that the rounds fired in the 95 are all that much greater performance wise than the ones found in the 94 or the 86.  

 

Okay, yeah, the 95 was chambered for the .30-'06 and that is a much more high performance round compared to the various rimmed cartridges that the rifle was offered in.   But I'd also wager that given how a lot of us tend to "download" even our long range rifles, is that advantage still there?   But for that matter, if you can hit the target with a 94 in .30-30 or an 86 in .45-70, how does using a 95 chambered in .30-40 or .405 Winchester at the exact same targets and distance, and with the same type of sights, have any kind of an advantage?  

 

Even so, the more logical answer is allow the 95, but not the .30-'06 or .30-'03 chambering.

 

Heck, I don't have one, but also argue for the inclusion of the Savage 99.

 

And possibly the Krag and the Winchester Hotchkiss.

Let's see... .30-40 Krag, .38-72, but... mainly the performance increase is in the ability to use spitzer bullets.  Even at like velocities, a spitzer has a distinct advantage over a flat nose bullet.  I have neither the desire nor the time while administering all other aspects of a match to do an ammo check for long range competitions.  Many WB matches no longer have ammo checks... unless they block off a period of time for such.  It just plain takes too long.  

 

Lastly, and I'll shut up on this subject... Tom Horn aside... just how "cowboy" during the period from post war of Northern Aggression to the turn of the 19th century are these rifles?  From 1895 to 1899, the Winchester 1895 was available for four years... Teddy Roosevelt aside, how many went west and were purchased by the working cowboy?  The Hotchkiss and Krag were military rifles... just how prevalent were they in civilian hands?

 

The Rolling Block was made in many different chamberings... And why do you think the rules are written to exclude many of those?  Because a 7mm Mauser is seriously better than chamberings in common usage on the western frontier.

 

IMO... just because "I have this old gun", doesn't mean it should be legal for competition in SASS. 

[LostVaquero]

I have a 7 shot Merwin Hulbert pocket pistol.  I can attest that it takes more time and paying attention to where rounds are at.

 

As an aside, there are several things about WB rules that I think are off but they are what they are and that is that.  BAMM  (Bolt Action Military Match) became official even though I raise an eyebrow about the cut off date (way outside what might be WB era) but understand for availability.  GAMM I just can't see at all.  Yes maybe the rifles are fun but way past era but it is not yet an official category.   Not sure if GAMM will become legal or not, but what I see is sort of a way to gauge interest and maybe some rifles and perhaps pistols may not be main legal but perhaps become legal in a side match.

Texas boys are trying a sort of WB pocket pistol match meaning drag out the Colt 03/05 pocket hammerless or Browing 25 or similar. 

Sure would like to explore something with some of the magazine feed guns on a side match as well.  There are neat ones like the 1895, or Remington Model 8 or Winchester 05/07 and all those fit and were used in the rough era that WB is supposed to be in (around the time of the punitive expedition) and 07s definitely accompanied the troops.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

4 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

Lastly, and I'll shut up on this subject... Tom Horn aside... just how "cowboy" during the period from post war of Northern Aggression to the turn of the 19th century are these rifles?  From 1895 to 1899, the Winchester 1895 was available for four years... Teddy Roosevelt aside, how many went west and were purchased by the working cowboy?  The Hotchkiss and Krag were military rifles... just how prevalent were they in civilian hands?

 

The era of CAS, according to the rules, is 1860 to 1899, not 1894.   So therefore, they are "cowboy" enough.  

 

The Trapdoor Springfield was also a military arm, and lotsa folks use it as a long range single shot.

 

The Civil War was started by the South.

 

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

6 minutes ago, LostVaquero said:

I have a 7 shot Merwin Hulbert pocket pistol.  I can attest that it takes more time and paying attention to where rounds are at.

 

As an aside, there are several things about WB rules that I think are off but they are what they are and that is that. 

 

Merwin's are weird.  Mine's a 6 shot, but instead of load one, skip one, load four, cock, lower hammer on empty chamber, the Merwin is load two skip one, load three, cock and lower.

 

I liked WB better before the official rules were created.   Most places that did it, you could use anything that was in existence up to 1918.  Under those rules, the old load 5 in the mag for the 1911 made sense since you'd see Webley's and 1917's competing against 1911's and Lugers and the like.  Some clubs also allowed for rifle caliber rifles.    The British Enfield was popular at such clubs cuz it had a 10 round magazine, meaning you didn't have to reload or use 2 rifles.  Although some people did.