Who calls the procedural?

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

equus mortuus est... or is it just me?

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

It doesn't that I know of. But I would offer the shooter has the right to protest the call to a higher authority, Posse Marshal, Range Officer, Match Director, Club President. Or if the spotters, the PM see a mistake being made they should speak up.

 

The example I gave above the TO clearly made a mistake and didn't understand the rules. I was the PM, the Club Territorial Governor, and the Club President so I changed the score by taking the Minor safety away.

 

All I'm offering is the TO, along with the spotters, the shooter and the peanut gallery can and do make mistakes. If anyone appears to have made a mistake they should be made aware of it.

Ike

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

 

 

The example I gave above the TO clearly made a mistake and didn't understand the rules. I was the PM, the Club Territorial Governor, and the Club President so I changed the score by taking the Minor safety away.

 

Irish Ike..

So glad you clarified this..

You only took the "minor safety" away.. Not the "P"..

Your original example on this you just said you corrected the shooters score...

I, myself, was wondering how he got out of shooting the pistols out of order..

See how communications can help??  

"P" only.. no MSV.. Got it now..

 

Rance 

Thinkin ya done good then.. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

equus mortuus est... or is it just me?

No he still has some life in him.

[Tennessee williams]

4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Through all of the typing I have never once said the TO isn't, doesn't, or shouldn't have the final authority to apply whatever.  What I'm saying, and ya'll can't seem to wrap your minds around is this, 'the TO can make mistakes and apply the wrong call'! If 3 spotters and the shooter all say there was no P then how in the wide world of sports could a TO still apply a P?

Because those are our rules. It has been posted numerous times on this thread the options available to the shooter. It may not be us that cant wrap our heads around something.

4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

PaleWolf is correct, as usual, not enough info on what caused the P's to be applied. But if after the TO has to "talk" people into giving a P and the shooter is told why and they don't agree what then?

The TO does not HAVE to talk spotters into seeing a P. It doesn't matter what the spotters see or do not see. If the TO sees a P, he or she calls it regardless of what the spotters see. Again, it has been posted a bunch of times on this very thread the shooters' options.

4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Same weekend a shooter pulls his pistol and shoots 4, holsters, pulls second pistol shoots 5. TO is telling him one more the whole time. The shooter is hard of hearing and moves to his rifle. Shoots 10 and finally hears the TO telling him he only shot 9. Shooter goes back to the pistol position, pulls his pistol, shoots the 10th round, correctly in order. TO gives him a P for shooting guns out of order, and a minor safety for holstering his pistol with a round still in it. Hammer was down on an empty! The TO was wrong, but according to this group maybe not so much. We, I, went back and corrected the score at the end of the match when it was brought to my attention by the shooter.  TO and the shooters will have a lessoned learned at the next shoot.

We've all seen wrong calls made and they should be corrected. Thats all I'm saying.

Ike

Hmm. Did you get the story also from the TO and spotters? I would hope so. I would also hope the only thing you took off was the msv or it will be you who has some lessons learned. Just saying.

Dont really know why I felt the need to chime in, just got tired of seeing the same posts I guess.

[Shooting Bull]

4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Through all of the typing I have never once said the TO isn't, doesn't, or shouldn't have the final authority to apply whatever.  What I'm saying, and ya'll can't seem to wrap your minds around is this, 'the TO can make mistakes and apply the wrong call'! If 3 spotters and the shooter all say there was no P then how in the wide world of sports could a TO still apply a P?

 

Because that's his job. 

 

Let's look at this from a different angle.  If I'm a spotter and I see a miss when the TO and two other spotters don't see one I'm calling it.  I don't care what anyone else says, if I see something I'm calling it.  And by the way, I couldn't care less what the shooter has to say. 

[Shooting Bull]

Oops.  Double tap.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Even if he's wrong?  In my example the TO was wrong for giving a minor safety penalty!  So his job is to make calls that could be wrong and we all have to accept it? SO the shooter can't ask questions and or challenge the TO on his call?  The shooter is the only one who knows his intent.  The rest are guessing at what they think the shooter thought when he shot the stage.

I agree with if you see it call it. But in my example 4 people didn't see the P and only the TO is calling it. If there is some confusion on the call wouldn't a prudent TO discuss it with the spotters and maybe he gets convinced he's wrong?

Again all I'm saying is TO's can and have been wrong.

Ike

 

[Flanigan Flats]

I knew we could make it to three pages!!!!! 

 

We we just had to work together!!!!!!

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Neigh... gasp, gasp...…………….

[Barry Sloe]

Well on the way to 4 pages.

 

BS

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Uuuhhhh... Has this horse died yet??

I saw it gasping a couple posts up??  And it neighed?? 

Was that it's last neigh?? 

 

Rance 

Thinkin' it oughta be dead by now?? 

 

Edit: Please 

[Shooting Bull]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Even if he's wrong?  In my example the TO was wrong for giving a minor safety penalty!  So his job is to make a call that could be wrong and we all have to accept it? SO the shooter can't ask questions and or challenge the TO on his call?  The shooter is the only one who knows his intent.  The rest are guessing at what they think the shooter thought when he shot the stage.

I agree with if you see it call it. But in my example 4 people didn't see the P and only the TO is calling it. If there is some confusion on the call wouldn't a prudent TO discuss it with the spotters and maybe he gets convinced he's wrong?

Again all I'm saying is TO's can and have been wrong.

Ike

 

 

 

First and foremost, the shooter has absolutely NO business being in any of these discussions.  If they are, you've got a bigger problem on your hand.  After and only after the call is made the shooter can dispute it through proper channels. (And I have absolutely no idea what the shooter's intent has to do with anything.  I intend to shoot every stage clean and under 20 seconds.  So what? What's intended means nothing.  It's what happened that matters.)

 

Any and every TO I've ever met has discussed Ps before making the call.  But if the discussion still doesn't convince the TO to change his mind then that's it. He makes the call.  He doesn't change his mind simply because he's out numbered.  If he does he's a poor example of a TO.  If I stopped making calls simply because I may be wrong then I have no business running the timer.  And your example of the minor safety is comparing apples to oranges.  The P from the OP was a visual call.  You call what you see.  The minor safety was a misunderstanding of the rules.  Two totally separate things that can't be compared. 

 

Lastly, "So his job is to make a call that could be wrong and we all have to accept it?"  Well yeah, was there ever any doubt of that?  Every single call at every single match since this sport was invented could have been wrong.  So what?  Does that mean they shouldn't have been made? 

[Tennessee williams]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Even if he's wrong?  In my example the TO was wrong for giving a minor safety penalty!  So his job is to make calls that could be wrong and we all have to accept it?    

No. We can choose to play marbles.

EVERYBODY that is spotting or TO'ing can get it wrong. As can match directors, black pins,owners of ranges, etc.

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

SO the shooter can't ask questions and or challenge the TO on his call? 

 

Again, as posted above they can dispute the call to the appropriate people. Shooter should never have a dispute with the TO though.

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

 

The shooter is the only one who knows his intent.  The rest are guessing at what they think the shooter thought when he shot the stage.

No. We do not attempt to guess the shooters' intent and you shouldn't either.

 

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I agree with if you see it call it. But in my example 4 people didn't see the P and only the TO is calling it.

 

Happens sometimes. TO is in best position to see.

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

If there is some confusion on the call wouldn't a prudent TO discuss it with the spotters and maybe he gets convinced he's wrong?

Yes. TO may change his mind but does not have to.

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Again all I'm saying is TO's can and have been wrong.

Ike

 

Yep.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

My example was to drive home the point TO's make mistakes. And P's can be called by the TO because the TO doesn't understand the rules. And if I as the shooter don't understand the call the TO has made I will and can dispute the call. If we can't come to an agreement the score is entered and the issue is taken off line with the TO and a higher authority.

Tennessee, in some instances, the way our storefront windows are sized the shooter fills the opening. All the TO can do is watch gun handling, order, and number of shots. Thats when the spotters are relied upon to make a P call if necessary.

Ike

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

No One said the spotters cannot call Ps, I hope they do if they see em. (Good spotter)

And you, as the shooter, have NO bearing at all on whether a P is called on you or not... OTHER THAN YOUR ACTIONS DURING THE STAGE!

Your words after the stage carry no weight whatsoever and if your TOs are swayed by the shooters, they should be replaced!

Right, TOs can't see everything, no one said they could. That's why we have spotters and three of them.

But when it comes down to it, the TO makes the call on P or no P. Yes, you may dispute to a higher authority, but if it's a judgement call, no MD should ever overturn the TO's call.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

My example was to drive home the point TO's make mistakes. And P's can be called by the TO because the TO doesn't understand the rules. And if I as the shooter don't understand the call the TO has made I will and can dispute the call. If we can't come to an agreement the score is entered and the issue is taken off line with the TO and a higher authority.

...

Ike

I agree with Ike on this.

 

I recall a stage where you carried a long gun across the bay to make safe at the pistol location. I had my first pistol pulled on the way over and had two shots off by the time I had the rifle laid down and the second pistol pulled.

 

I then alternates for the next six rounds and ended by double tapping with the second pistol.

 

TO called a P for not alternating my pistols because gunfighters have to do that.

 

I protested the call, following the process outlined in the SHB, and the call was overturned.

 

Or you can ask my wife who was told that she earned a P at the Alabama State last year.  She was adamant that she did not earn a P. She argued the point with the TO for several minutes until the posse marshal was called over.  He agreed with my wife that the correct call for shooting the rifle targets with her pistols was in fact not a P, but rather 10 misses. She got that call corrected too.

 

TOs can be wrong and that is why we have an appeals process.

 

But that is also why TOs are instructed to always refer to the SASS Shooters Handbook when stating the rules or referencing what the shooter did wrong. That's why we should always have a copy of it on hand. Don't quote or say something from memory. By directly referencing the SHB, you take away the issue of what the rule says, and now we can just argue about interpretation...

 

 

[Yul Lose]

30 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

No One said the spotters cannot call Ps, I hope they do if they see em. (Good spotter)

And you, as the shooter, have NO bearing at all on whether a P is called on you or not... OTHER THAN YOUR ACTIONS DURING THE STAGE!

Your words after the stage carry no weight whatsoever and if your TOs are swayed by the shooters, they should be replaced!

Right, TOs can't see everything, no one said they could. That's why we have spotters and three of them.

But when it comes down to it, the TO makes the call on P or no P. Yes, you may dispute to a higher authority, but if it's a judgement call, no MD should ever overturn the TO's call.

Actually a shooter at times does carry weight in the the decision. I had a procedural called on me by the TO and spotters recently but when the stage description was reviewed I had shot it correctly and the P was removed. Let me explain.

 

The stage called for revolvers to shoot the two front targets twice each and the center rear target once. Being a gunfighter I shot the left target with left hand revolver and the right target with the right revolver and repeated and then shot the center target with the left revolver. I then shot the two closer outside targets as described above and then the center far target with the right revolver. A P was called.  The TO and spotters were under the impression that these closer targets had to be double tapped, they did not. I appealed and I had shot it correctly. No P.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

YL -

This falls into a "question of the rules being followed".   For the stage being shot, the handbook rules, AND the stage description, provide the "permitted" way to shoot.  The range officers had misinterpreted the stage description.   That would be very protestable.  Glad you helped them see their error.

 

Good luck, GJ

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

If your range officers cannot discern that this is a round count stage with no mention of double-taps, they should bow out of their positions.

All four of them? You have some problems.

[Yul Lose]

2 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

If your range officers cannot discern that this is a round count stage with no mention of double-taps, they should bow out of their positions.

All four of them? You have some problems.

They don’t understand gunfighters. I’ve been called for not alternating between guns before also AND shooting duelist on split pistol stages.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

24 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

They don’t understand gunfighters. I’ve been called for not alternating between guns before also AND shooting duelist on split pistol stages.

Gunfighters, duelist or whatever, a round count stage applies to all shooters. Yes, gunfighters can come up with some pretty creative ways to shoot a stage, but there is a big difference between a sequence stage and a round count stage.

Hey, Capt Bill holds a pretty good RO1 class; just got refreshed a few weeks ago myself.

I don't mean to hack on ROs, we are all volunteers, but you should learn different types of stages if you're going to RO.

[Yul Lose]

1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Gunfighters, duelist or whatever, a round count stage applies to all shooters. Yes, gunfighters can come up with some pretty creative ways to shoot a stage, but there is a big difference between a sequence stage and a round count stage.

Hey, Capt Bill holds a pretty good RO1 class; just got refreshed a few weeks ago myself.

I don't mean to hack on ROs, we are all volunteers, but you should learn different types of stages if you're going to RO.

I agree. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

My son lives in SD, if I get out there, I'll give you all a ring.

Best of luck and happy shooting.

[Yul Lose]

9 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

My son lives in SD, if I get out there, I'll give you all a ring.

Best of luck and happy shooting.

That’d be great. Same to you.

[Griff]

14 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

If you are standing behind my Right Shoulder you are often NOT in a good position to see anything ,,,,,,, SMOKE ,,,, you need to back off a step or two and bob and move like I am to see anything ....

And even at that I believe properly placed spotters that are paying attention have at least as good a chance of making the call as TO ...

 

You do not need the timer up in my face to pick-up my shots !!! I have long ago lost count of the times the timer has bumped me or come into my line of sight ....

This is distracting, and is NOT needed ... On a quiet Range the timer will pick-up the sound of my Rifle from 80 yards away ....

 

I have on more than a few stages had to fire my last shots from my knees to see through the Smoke ....

My .45 Colt loads contain 37.7 gr. of Goex 3f ,,, and Shotshells  are stoked with more of the same ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

But... but, not everybody's are... ergo, if I don't know you and your loads, I'm going to err on the side of what I know the timer will pick up.

13 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Through all of the typing I have never once said the TO isn't, doesn't, or shouldn't have the final authority to apply whatever.  What I'm saying, and ya'll can't seem to wrap your minds around is this, 'the TO can make mistakes and apply the wrong call'! If 3 spotters and the shooter all say there was no P then how in the wide world of sports could a TO still apply a P?

PaleWolf is correct, as usual, not enough info on what caused the P's to be applied. But if after the TO has to "talk" people into giving a P and the shooter is told why and they don't agree what then?

Same weekend a shooter pulls his pistol and shoots 4, holsters, pulls second pistol shoots 5. TO is telling him one more the whole time. The shooter is hard of hearing and moves to his rifle. Shoots 10 and finally hears the TO telling him he only shot 9. Shooter goes back to the pistol position, pulls his pistol, shoots the 10th round, correctly in order. TO gives him a P for shooting guns out of order, and a minor safety for holstering his pistol with a round still in it. Hammer was down on an empty! The TO was wrong, but according to this group maybe not so much. We, I, went back and corrected the score at the end of the match when it was brought to my attention by the shooter.  TO and the shooters will have a lessoned learned at the next shoot.

We've all seen wrong calls made and they should be corrected. Thats all I'm saying.

Ike

Certainly, the shooter has the right to dispute what he thinks is a bad call.   In fact, I'd argue that he has a duty to do so.  How else are bad calls brought to the attention to otherwise well-meaning and intentioned TOs?  Spotters on small posses are often pre-occupied with picking up brass and resetting KDs to be fully engaged with calls after they've been polled on misses and other calls they may have seen.  And certainly TOs make bad calls... any TO that hasn't made several bad calls hasn't been TOing very long.  That doesn't make them bad people...  I "think" I'm a fairly good TO, but I make bad calls every so often... I distinctly remember one about 10 years ago... I applied a rule that'd been changed about 5 or 6 years before that... It was the 1st time I'd encountered the exact circumstance since the rule change... I went to the MD and had the shooter's score changed to reflect my error...   I don't know whether the shooter protested or not... but I did.

 

As to why in the wide world of sports would a TO apply a penalty when none of the other ROs on the line saw it... failure to apply an earned penalty, penalizes EVERY other shooter in the match.    A couple of years ago, I had a situation where, as the TO, I thought the shooter had engaged the last two targets out of order.  When I polled the spotters for misses and asked what they recalled being the last target in the last sequence, they all stated that they thought it was correct.   I then asked the shooter what target was the last he shot at, who thought a minute, and said, yep, last two shots were out of order.   "P".   My duty as a TO is to be fair to the competitor on the line... and every other competitor in the match.

 

Frankly, I don't see what the fuss is over in this thread... whether a TO and spotters don't agree on a specific call is inconsequential... if spotters don't specifically "see" a procedural infraction, and the TO does, it is the TOs "duty" to report it.   Failure to do so isn't "fair" to the other competitors in the match.  And "benefit of the doubt" is not a farcical notion.  Let's postulate that a lone spotter sees an procedure infraction, and reports it along with his "misses" count.  As a TO, I'll poll the other spotters and if neither of them can confirm, along with myself... I ask the spotter how sure they are...  If they respond, "...I think", or some other waffling that indicates some doubt... it's a "no call".  but, if they can articulate exactly what they saw, and it constitutes a procedural... bubba, you just got 10 seconds.  In this theoretical specific instance, the spotters and the TO don't agree... and the TO is still the final artribitor of what gets reported to the scorekeeper.  Just like misses... as a TO I don't have to agree, or even like what the spotters claim the misses to be... but I must report their number to the scorekeeper.  (Pssst... personally, I always like it when they report 3 different numbers for the misses....  I.e., 1, 2 & 4.... as then I can only make one of them happy... as 2 of 'em agreed there were 2 misses)!  One spotter thinks I'm cruel, and one thinks I'm too lenient!  And whether I think the shooter was clean, or missed 5 is immaterial... 2 spotters agreed there were at least two misses.  Therefore, 2 it is.

 

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Griff:

 

I'm Hurt ,,,, We met I believe at WR in 2016 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I was the Hansom one with TR ,,,, Taller Too ...

And I will bet after the first few Rounds go down-range you are smart enough to step back a might ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

[Griff]

8 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Griff:

 

I'm Hurt ,,,, We met I believe at WR in 2016 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I was the Hansom one with TR ,,,, Taller Too ...

And I will bet after the first few Rounds go down-range you are smart enough to step back a might ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Naw, it musta been some other interloper... I've never been to WR... But... since you bring it up... before I step back, I'll step up and tell ya that after you shoot, I'm going downrange and inspect my targets... if there's damage, your range fees are going up!!!    And smile when I do...