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Dusty Devil Dale

Transfer bar removal associated liability

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1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I believe your observation is in error.  The T-bar is attached to an extended limb of the trigger, and is independent of the hammer.  Hold back the hammer, pull the trigger  and watch the t-bar.  The T-bar moves up into firing position when the trigger is pulled rearward as the hammer is retracted and clocked.  It operates independently of the hammer, except that the hammer cam is what draws the trigger rearward.  The trigger pivot radius is set to assure that the T-bar is up and remains up when the trigger is squeezed.  If you release the trigger and lower the hammer, as in decocking, the T-bar is drawn down as the trigger spring draws the trigger back to its forward rest position. 

No offense Dale, if I have to choose between believing you and what my eyes show me I’m going with my eyes. Look at the picture and video.

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12 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Pulling the trigger releases the sear and keeps the t-bar up, it does not raise it. Ok, maybe a 1/16, but it is already covering the pin.

 

Try this, cock your t-bar equipped Ruger. With no finger in the trigger guard, tap the t-bar, it moves freely, the firing pin is depressed, no trigger pull required.

The transfer bar is connected to the trigger only. You can either believe me, or take the gun apart and learn how it works for yourself, but I’m not going to argue with you about it. 

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4 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

The transfer bar is connected to the trigger only. You can either believe me, or take the gun apart and learn how it works for yourself, but I’m not going to argue with you about it. 

 Dale made a statement that did not agree with what I’ve observed so I responded with a picture and video. We disagree and are talking about it. If you choose to view that as arguing that your privilege. I went and checked. I’ll take my eyes over your statement.

 

How about you look at the video and explain to me how that happened if the T-bar is down until the trigger is pulled?

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21 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's irrelevant what raises the transfer bar during a drop. It's what keep the transfer bar up while the hammer is falling.

 

Yes!!!! 

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Well, I thought I was done with this post, but Just one further comment. Regards to no Transfer Bar on a Ruger. I've only told this story to a few folks. It happen a LONG time ago.  I stopped working on other folks guns after a Lawsuit. I guy got a Ruger from me that did not have a transfer bar in it. It was NOT a gun that I had taken the transfer bar out of.... it was an original that had never seen a transfer bar. (Thank God)  Any how, he loaded it with 6 rounds and while stepping up into his van the gun fell and hit on the hammer, it fired a bullet into his leg hitting the Femur. He died in the hospital. The insurance company went after the deep pockets...…. RUGER. Their investigator showed up at my place and scared the hell out of me. I thought for a while that I was going to end up in the middle of all this. At that point, I decided to stop working on guns for other folks. (yeah, every so often I end up helping someone out but I won't accept any pay, and won't admit it). If I were still working on guns there is no way in the world that I would remove ANY safety device from a gun belonging to ANYONE other than myself....., and I would NOT sell ANYONE a traceable gun that had a safety device removed. Bottom line is this... Now days you have better cover your @$$. If you do anything that can be traced back to you (a proved), then you had better do EVERYTHING right. 

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Snakebite,

sent you a PM.

 

..........Widder

 

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34 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Now, what's this about Cold Bluing a gun.... Why heck..... I've painted guns and been pretty pleased with the results!

I saw those guns.  They did look great. 

 I made the mistake of spraying out the action on one of my wife's "blued" single sixes with carburetor cleaner.  The paint applied by Ruger came off.  Yep--the lower frame is painted, not blued.  

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21 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Well, I thought I was done with this post, but Just one further comment. Regards to no Transfer Bar on a Ruger. I've only told this story to a few folks. It happen a LONG time ago.  I stopped working on other folks guns after a Lawsuit. I guy got a Ruger from me that did not have a transfer bar in it. It was NOT a gun that I had taken the transfer bar out of.... it was an original that had never seen a transfer bar. (Thank God)  Any how, he loaded it with 6 rounds and while stepping up into his van the gun fell and hit on the hammer, it fired a bullet into his leg hitting the Femur. He died in the hospital. The insurance company went after the deep pockets...…. RUGER. Their investigator showed up at my place and scared the hell out of me. I thought for a while that I was going to end up in the middle of all this. At that point, I decided to stop working on guns for other folks. (yeah, every so often I end up helping someone out but I won't accept any pay, and won't admit it). If I were still working on guns there is no way in the world that I would remove ANY safety device from a gun belonging to ANYONE other than myself....., and I would NOT sell ANYONE a traceable gun that had a safety device removed. Bottom line is this... Now days you have better cover your @$$. If you do anything that can be traced back to you (a proved), then you had better do EVERYTHING right. 

 

Very good and valid point.

When I use to work on Marlin's, most (probably 75%) of them would already have the 'lever-trigger' safety bar

removed or disabled.

 

And it seemed that the other 25% wanted it removed or disabled.

 

And the number of aftermarket cross bolt safety replacements are staggering.

And those that don't have the replacements will have the factory disabled by torqueing down the

screw in its 'fire' position.

 

..........Widder

 

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30 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 Dale made a statement that did not agree with what I’ve observed so I responded with a picture and video. We disagree and are talking about it. If you choose to view that as arguing that your privilege. I went and checked. I’ll take my eyes over your statement.

 

How about you look at the video and explain to me how that happened if the T-bar is down until the trigger is pulled?

The transfer bar is raised by the trigger only. What you are seeing is the effect of the trigger position being changed by the hammer. Pull the hammer back enough that you can just see the transfer bar and then pull the trigger and watch it. 

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1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

The transfer bar is raised by the trigger only. What you are seeing is the effect of the trigger position being changed by the hammer. Pull the hammer back enough that you can just see the transfer bar and then pull the trigger and watch it. 

STOP IT!!! Eyes don't lie!

 

:lol:

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

How about you look at the video and explain to me how that happened if the T-bar is down until the trigger is pulled?

With all due respect to you, I looked at the pictures that you posted, and what they are displaying is the T-bar being raised by the trigger, as the trigger is pulled rearward by the cam of the hammer.   

Here's a test that you can do to " see the trigger's action with your own eyes". Decock the revolver and watch the T-bar. 

First, Decock with the trigger released after releasing the sear.  Slowly move the hammer back and forth.  The rotating hammer cam gradually repositions the trigger,  and as the trigger returns forward, it  lowers the T-bar.  (you can see both the trigger and T-bar moving in connected motion). 

 

Now Decock while holding the trigger back in firing position.  Slowly lower the hammer.  As the hammer moves forward, the held trigger continues to hold the t-bar up over the firing pin. 

It is the trigger that is attached to, and moves the t-bar. 

 

I really cannot add much more to this hammer v. trigger side- discussion, so I am signing off to try to get some work done this morning.  Best Regards and thanks to everyone for a good discussion. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

The transfer bar is raised by the trigger only. What you are seeing is the effect of the trigger position being changed by the hammer. Pull the hammer back enough that you can just see the transfer bar and then pull the trigger and watch it. 

Smokestack.

 

Dale said "But with the t-bar in place, it would not be in battery or  fire as long as the trigger is not pulled or jarred back far enough to raise the t-bar into firing position."

 

I responded  "Pulling the trigger doesn’t raise the t-bar into ‘firing position’ cocking the hammer does. I just pulled out my wife’s Single Sixes and verified that. So a cocked Ruger is ready to fire regardless of whether it has a t-bar or not."

 

I verified that by picking up a Ruger Single Six and without ever touching the trigger cocking the hammer.  At that point, the t-bar was up and the firing pin was covered by it.  I then pushed on the t-bar with the rod you see in the video and it moved freely depressing the firing pin.  I believe that makes my point, that 'Pulling the trigger doesn't raise the t-bar into firing position'.  I demonstrated a t-bar that was in fact in firing position with the trigger having never been touched. 

 

You can explain how the hammer changed the trigger, that's fine, I never said anything about that, I simply said that 'pulling the trigger doesn't raise the t-bar into firing position, cocking the hammer is enough.  I also recorded the video which supports this.  

 

I stand by my original statement.  If you cock the hammer on a Ruger with a t-bar the t-bar will at that point be 'in firing position' and in fact I would be willing to bet that if you struck that t-bar with a live round under the firing pin you would get ignition with the hammer back and the trigger having never been touched.  

 

I mean no disrespect, I'm not trying to argue with you or Dale, I'm simply stating what I've personally observed, which bears on the topic of dropping a cocked gun with a t-bar safety.

 

 

 

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Thanks for the google eye comment Smokestack.  Very respectful!

 

One simple yes or no question then I'm done with this 'argument'. 

 

Pick up your t-bar Ruger, don't touch the trigger, cock the hammer, is the t-bar up or not?

 

If the answer is yes, then one more question, how does that disprove my statement that cocking the hammer will raise the t-bar?

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

Now, what's this about Cold Bluing a gun.... Why heck..... I've painted guns and been pretty pleased with the results!

I saw those guns.  They did look great. 

 I made the mistake of spraying out the action on one of my wife's "blued" single sixes with carburetor cleaner.  The paint applied by Ruger came off.  Yep--the lower frame is painted, not blued.  

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57 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

With all due respect to you, I looked at the pictures that you posted, and what they are displaying is the T-bar being raised by the trigger, as the trigger is pulled rearward by the cam of the hammer.   

Here's a test that you can do to " see the trigger's action with your own eyes". Decock the revolver and watch the T-bar. 

First, Decock with the trigger released after releasing the sear.  Slowly move the hammer back and forth.  The rotating hammer cam gradually repositions the trigger,  and as the trigger returns forward, it  lowers the T-bar.  (you can see both the trigger and T-bar moving in connected motion). 

 

Now Decock while holding the trigger back in firing position.  Slowly lower the hammer.  As the hammer moves forward, the held trigger continues to hold the t-bar up over the firing pin. 

It is the trigger that is attached to, and moves the t-bar. 

 

I really cannot add much more to this hammer v. trigger side- discussion, so I am signing off to try to get some work done this morning.  Best Regards and thanks to everyone for a good discussion. 

 

I understand what you’re saying I just don’t agree. By your logic negligent discharges are caused by firing pins, after all it was the pin that struck the primer, let’s ignore your finger that pulled the trigger which caused the hammer to fall.

 

In this case let’s ignore that cocking the hammer initiated the sequence of events that resulted in the t-bar being up. It was the trigger acting on it’s own that caused it, no need for the hammer at all. Good luck doing that with a single action. Yank on that trigger all you want, the t- bar isn’t going anywhere, but cock that hammer and it will.

 

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If you decock a ruger upside down, will the transfer bar stay in the fire position?  I don't have a ruger easily accessible to check this for myself.  This has no bearing on the current discussion, but someone mentioned that when it's cocked the tbar can move, which made me wonder if relies on gravity to drop the tbar. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Won't load.

---------------

Exploded view shows t'bar(#49)and it's placement into the trigger(#50).

https://www.midwayusa.com/schematics/ruger-single-action-revolver

 

RG-The pull of the trigger moves the t'bar upward, when you release the trigger it's moved off the FP-as the t'bar is attached to the trigger.

Guns position is immaterial.

 

OLG

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1 minute ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Won't load.

---------------

Exploded view shows t'bar(#49)and it's placement into the trigger(#50).

https://www.midwayusa.com/schematics/ruger-single-action-revolver

 

RG-The pull of the trigger moves the t'bar upward, when you release the trigger it's moved off the FP-as the t'bar is attached to the trigger.

Guns position is immaterial.

 

OLG

I wish I could help OLG, it opened for me.  I can send it to your email if you like.

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Thanks for the google eye comment Smokestack.  Very respectful!

 

One simple yes or no question then I'm done with this 'argument'. 

 

Pick up your t-bar Ruger, don't touch the trigger, cock the hammer, is the t-bar up or not?

 

If the answer is yes, then one more question, how does that disprove my statement that cocking the hammer will raise the t-bar?

You’re so hell bent on defending your statement that your unwilling to learn how the gun works and how a transfer bar stops a discharge from a dropped gun. Even though when cocked the trigger moves the transfer bar up high enough to contact the firing pin, if the gun were dropped and the sear or it’s not h were to fail, the trigger return spring and the trigger would retract the transfer bar before the hammer got there. 

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17 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

You’re so hell bent on defending your statement that your unwilling to learn how the gun works and how a transfer bar stops a discharge from a dropped gun. Even though when cocked the trigger moves the transfer bar up high enough to contact the firing pin, if the gun were dropped and the sear or it’s not h were to fail, the trigger return spring and the trigger would retract the transfer bar before the hammer got there. 

I think everything you just said about how the gun works is true. 

 

I also think that you're inaccurately and unfairly accusing me of being 'hellbent' on defending something I never said.  I understand perfectly how the system works.  I never said anything about the gun being dropped, I never said anything about the trigger retracting the t-bar if the hammer falls and the trigger isn't depressed.  Never addressed any of that.  I said cocking the hammer raises the t-bar enough to cover the firing pin.  Bang, that's it.  If anyone has been hellbent it hasn't been me.  I haven't posted google eyes or accused anyone of arguing.


My point was, once cocked, if something strikes that t-bar, the gun will fire even without a finger on the trigger.  Yes, if the hammer is knocked and falls and there's no finger on the trigger the t-bar will retract, but guess what, if something other than the hammer hits that t-bar you have no protection . A case on the ground, a rock, a piece of debris, anything like that will cause a discharge without the hammer falling and without a trigger pull, which was my original intent and what my video showed.

 

I meant no disrespect to you or anyone else and even explicitly said so, but despite that I've taken my share of abuse for one day so I'm definitely done with this conversation. 

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One safe way to avoid modifying safety features is to avoid guns with them in the first place.  Last Saturday I shoot a pair of Colt SAA,  a Marlin 1894SRC 32-20WCF made in 1900, and a Winchester 1887 made in 1887.  No safety devices were removed or modified on these guns. B)

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
7 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

States I would refuse to live in...…...says the guy with no T-bars in my Rugers. 

 

 

 Mine fell out and I can not find them.:D :FlagAm:

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On 4/12/2019 at 4:25 PM, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 Not in Massachusetts.

 

TJB is correct; however, the MA testing regulations (including the drop test requirement) apply to manufacturers and/or gun dealers - not to individuals.  It is the manufacturer's obligation to pay for the testing and certify the results to the state; it is the dealer's obligation to sell only those guns that appear on the Approved List (and they don't get on the List without passing the drop test); the Regulations do not forbid subsequent owner modifications.  However, any individual who sells a gun that has been modified such that it would no longer pass that test is inviting a negligence claim if the modification results in an injury - especially if he does not fully advise the buyer of the nature and scope of the modifications and the resulting safety issues.  Even then, the seller may still be exposed to liability to a third party injured by the use of the modified gun.  Modify away if you can accept the risk; but re-install before you sell.

 

LL

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Dear Moderator:

I'm just being curious and sorta humorous, BUT... what would happen if everyone click the 'ignore' for

the Mods?  :lol:

Surely that wouldn't be helpful.

 

.........Widder

 

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6 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

 

I meant no disrespect to you or anyone else 

Well, you’ve got a funny way of showin’ it. 

Have a good one. 

9BED20B9-41D5-43F1-8414-AB47C650B9C8.jpeg

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