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Dusty Devil Dale

Transfer bar removal associated liability

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18 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

A couple more thoughts:

 

OK, I just looked over my recent practice time sheets.  Using my two  New-model Vaqueros in .357 cal., and for a five shot all-hit string alternating between two targets, my elapsed time per shot has consistently run between 0.211 and 0.308 sec.  I have no way to measure the respective amounts of time used for gun operation, versus target acquisition, recoil recovery, etc., unless I run the same test without worrying about hitting targets and just work the gun at max speed under the timer.  (purely out of interest, I probably will try that) 

 

By way of contrast, my transfer times, changing between pistols (with timer also capturing the first shot of the second pistol) have run between 2.17 and 2.69 sec.. 

So I'm taking about the same time to transfer guns, as I'm requiring for eight or ten shots.    

 

So for me, I guess the question becomes whether shaving another 1/10 second or so, per 5 shot string, by removing the t-bar and short stroking the pistol, is worth the potential human and legal risks.  At my present ability level, I don't think so. 

 

I guess I am left wondering why Ruger or somebody hasn't marketed a stock Vaquero or other model for the SASS competition market--one that comes stock with a short stroke, has a 14# or less hammer spring, a lightweight, tough Titanium alloy transfer bar, all polished working surfaces, a wide and substantially lowered hammer spur, and an improved front sight. 

Just dreaming. 

Would you buy that gun, considering its increased production cost?  I certainly would be there in line, with money in hand. 

 

At least in response to this, removing the transfer bar won't cause it speed increase.  However it is one less part to break.  A 14# spring could cause a speed INCREASE due to longer lock times.

 

If you want to get faster, you have to practice, and practice the right things.  This may help: http://laststand.org/BreakingTheShot/BTS.aspx

 

Doc

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Yeah, we don't remove them to make us faster. 

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47 minutes ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

Just the clarify there is no such thing as a certified gunsmith as there is no certifying agency. 

You can be a degree'd gunsmith if you graduated from an accredited technical school with a AS degree. 
You can get a certificate that state you attended a training course such as an armors course.
But there is now certification process like a state licensed (insert trade name)

Ok, "trained" gunsmith. You get the point... don't you?

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16 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Ok, "trained" gunsmith. You get the point... don't you?

I do Sir, Although I have seen this term thrown around far to often, and it's not to diminish a Smith in any way. just to inform someone that the term gunsmith can be used by anyone and there is no agency to answer too if a customer should have a problem. I prefer the term "Reputable" over anything else. Find a guy with references and recommendations. 

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deleted.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

At least in response to this, removing the transfer bar won't cause it speed increase.  However it is one less part to break.  A 14# spring could cause a speed INCREASE due to longer lock times.

 

If you want to get faster, you have to practice, and practice the right things.  This may help: http://laststand.org/BreakingTheShot/BTS.aspx

 

Doc

 Thanks Doc for that link!

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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8 minutes ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

I do Sir, Although I have seen this term thrown around far to often, and it's not to diminish a Smith in any way. just to inform someone that the term gunsmith can be used by anyone and there is no agency to answer too if a customer should have a problem. I prefer the term "Reputable" over anything else. Find a guy with references and recommendations. 

Just making the point that I have no formal (or informal) training as a gunsmith; completely self-taught.

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18 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Just making the point that I have no formal (or informal) training as a gunsmith; completely self-taught.

 

I hear you, and same here, I'm a toolmaker by trade so the machine work comes easier for me, what I mean is don't put these guy on a pedestal. Most are hacks, the good ones are in short supply. I started working on my own stuff from day one because I couldn't afford to pay someone to do it for me

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1 hour ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

 

I hear you, and same here, I'm a toolmaker by trade so the machine work comes easier for me, what I mean is don't put these guy on a pedestal. Most are hacks, the good ones are in short supply. I started working on my own stuff from day one because I couldn't afford to pay someone to do it for me

 

"Most are hacks, ................"

 

Interesting observation.

I don't know 'most' of our gunsmiths, but I'm thankful that I am familiar with those good ones. 

They know their skill levels very well and do good, honest service to many of us.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 minute ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

"Most are hacks, ................"

 

Interesting observation.

I don't know 'most' of our gunsmiths, but I'm thankful that I am familiar with those good ones. 

They know their skill levels very well and do good, honest service to many of us.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Well your neck of the woods things might be different and I'd give credit where credit is due. Typical California gunsmith is a guy with a cheep set of screwdrivers and kinda knows how an AR 15 works. outside of that can't do much else,  Typical California All show and very little go. It's all perception.  Although we do have some very well respected smiths out here. 

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On 4/11/2019 at 8:22 AM, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Just a couple thoughts here:

 

Does anybody know and understand the legality of removing transfer bars from single action revolvers, particularly in states like California, where guns are available for sale only if their design has passed a "drop test"?

Are modified guns with t-bars removed technically legal to purchase or to possess in those affected states? 

Is it lawful for a person or gunsmith to remove t-bars, or to sell or transfer guns with them removed? 

 

It certainly seems like criminal or civil liability could result in an accident situation where a gun with the transfer bar removed is dropped (or shooter trips) in CAS competition,  and someone is injured.  And in those kinds of lawsuits, everyone who is connected gets tagged for costs, and the gun WILL get inspected.  So does anyone have professional guidance or thoughts about removal of  t-bars constituting criminal or other negligence? 

 

And I know that all we have to do is follow the SASS rules, and be careful.  But I also know that sometimes things like falls or dropped pistols just happen--even to the best shooters--and all of us are certainly not "best shooters". 

 

My t-bars are still in the guns, but I would love to remove them, if it is legal and prudent, so I'm just collecting your thoughts here, particularly any thoughts from professionals in the field of gun ownership law .  

Single action revolvers & exempt from the drop test unless their dimensions fall within the "Saturday Night Special" range.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
1 hour ago, J.D. Daily said:

Single action revolvers & exempt from the drop test unless their dimensions fall within the "Saturday Night Special" range.

 Not in Massachusetts.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
7 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

At least in response to this, removing the transfer bar won't cause it speed increase.  However it is one less part to break.  A 14# spring could cause a speed INCREASE due to longer lock times.

 

If you want to get faster, you have to practice, and practice the right things.  This may help: http://laststand.org/BreakingTheShot/BTS.aspx

 

Doc

  

 

 Doc, you said practice, SHHHHHH! someone might actually hear you.;):FlagAm:

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9 hours ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

 

 what I mean is don't put these guy on a pedestal. Most are hacks, the good ones are in short supply. 

The good ones have earned respect :excl:

'Most are hacks' :huh: WOW really, your're using a pretty wide brush there.-_-

I too have a background in tool & die fabrication, in the aircraft industry.

I also apprenticed for many years under one of the best .45acp gunsmiths there will ever be.

His name was Armand Swenson.

Trust me-Hand fitting of the gunsmith trade is far more time consuming.

OLG

 

 

 

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OLG

much respect for not only having met but apprenticed under the single best 1911 Smith known. 

I used to live in Fallbrook and never had a chance to meet Mr Swenson. I have had the pleasure to have hands on a couple of his pistols

yes sir I use a wide brush. 

I’ve had to fix these hacks crap. There are far to many guys in gun shops that don’t know how to tell a customer “That’s beyond my skill set”

Gunsmith Dan ring a bell? How about that piece of work at ElCajon gun exchange? Any of the Tacticool shops that popped up in San Diego in the last 20 years. 

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Well I'm pretty sure that I am Hack, I've had little or no training in the gunsmithing field, just a pretty good mechanical aptitude. However, it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to do the basic work on most of these guns used in CAS, and if you can read and follow good directions, most things are covered reasonably well either on the internet or in some of the publications.  Besides all of that, I've screwed up enough guns over the past 50 yrs that I have a pretty good idea of what not to do.  ;)

 

Snakebite

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great read folks , its worth thinking on , but we only live once and its damn short ta-boot , have things as you like them as long as you know the risks , this game does control the safety issues if we follow the rules , 

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

Well I'm pretty sure that I am Hack, I've had little or no training in the gunsmithing field, just a pretty good mechanical aptitude. However, it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to do the basic work on most of these guns used in CAS, and if you can read and follow good directions, most things are covered reasonably well either on the internet or in some of the publications.  Besides all of that, I've screwed up enough guns over the past 50 yrs that I have a pretty good idea of what not to do.  ;)

 

Snakebite

 

Snakebite,

When I created the 'Widdermajik' that would feed both the Cowboy 45 Special (C45S) and the 45 Colt 'interchangeably' in the same tube, Adirondack Jack called me "One of the best Kitchen Table Butchers'   he ever saw.

 

I took it as a great compliment, considering he modified his Marlin using the instructions on Marauders

webpage.

 

And I ain't even a tool and die man, nor an engineer nor have much mechanical knowledge.

Heck, I was just a bean counter all my life, military and civilian.

 

Now my "Butchering" is done on Henry .22 lever rifles..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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Widder, you are a Brute!:P

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5 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Snakebite,

When I created the 'Widdermajik' that would feed both the Cowboy 45 Special (C45S) and the 45 Colt 'interchangeably' in the same tube, Adirondack Jack called me "One of the best Kitchen Table Butchers'   he ever saw.

 

I took it as a great compliment, considering he modified his Marlin using the instructions on Marauders

webpage.

 

And I ain't even a tool and die man, nor an engineer nor have much mechanical knowledge.

Heck, I was just a bean counter all my life, military and civilian.

 

Now my "Butchering" is done on Henry .22 lever rifles..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

Speaking of kitchen table gunsmiths, I visited Rowdy Yates of Lee’s Gun smithing fame up at his house/shop in Orange, Ca. a few years ago and his kitchen table was his workbench and he did great work, just saying.

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On 4/11/2019 at 8:04 PM, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

You do realize that SASS rules require that we load the revolver with five rounds, hammer down on an empty chamber?  Same rule applies whether your revolvers have transfer bars (or some other passive drop-safe feature) or not.  For a match gun the transfer bar is pretty much a non-issue.

A dropped, cocked revolver would be fully in battery and would most likely fire if the t-bar is removed and the hammer gap filled. 

But with the t-bar in place, it would not be in battery or  fire as long as the trigger is not pulled or jarred back far enough to raise the t-bar into firing position.  

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On 4/12/2019 at 6:10 PM, Snakebite said:

Well I'm pretty sure that I am Hack, I've had little or no training in the gunsmithing field

I think 30+ years experience in curing or repairing every imaginable mechanical problem  with the broad array of cowboy guns for yourself, many others and me (recently),  with much of that experience under mid-match pressure at the unloading table, and then explaining and teaching many of us the best way to address problems with our own guns, IS training in the gunsmithing field, and you're very good at it.  You've saved a lot of shoot days for a lot of people, including me.  

Don't under-rate your expertise.  

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I learned early in my Navy career that one should not confuse smarts and ability with education.  A Senior Chief drove that home with a couple of us instructors and he was absolutely correct.  It was a valuable lesson I never forgot as well as a couple of other things he told us.

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On 4/11/2019 at 12:38 PM, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

  a few states require drop tests on Single action revolvers

States I would refuse to live in...…...says the guy with no T-bars in my Rugers. 

 

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On 4/12/2019 at 6:10 PM, Snakebite said:

Well I'm pretty sure that I am Hack, I've had little or no training in the gunsmithing field, just a pretty good mechanical aptitude. However, it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to do the basic work on most of these guns used in CAS, and if you can read and follow good directions, most things are covered reasonably well either on the internet or in some of the publications.  Besides all of that, I've screwed up enough guns over the past 50 yrs that I have a pretty good idea of what not to do.  ;)

 

Snakebite

Snakebite, 
That's not what I'm getting at. My definition of a Hack, is a few things that stick out in my mind.

Right off the bat. a person that would use the wrong tools with no care or concern, Ham handed, a Beat it to fit, paint it to match mentality.

: Has no concept of Headspace
: Wonders why he can't pick up a 6-48 or an 8-40 tap at home depot
: thinks cold blue will work on the entire gun
; Mounts a sloped scope rail backwards
: when attempting to drill a hole in a hardened piece of steel melts three drill bits in the process, can understand why and wonders why I'm going to charge him $100 to fix it. 
: Not knowing the difference in what NOT to do and what to do

A hack does not mean no formal education, A hack is the kid that didn't take his toys apart, Never worked on his bicycle, skateboard, or what have you. Just a plain lack of mechanical intellect. Not necessarily skill but just an understanding of whats going on and some good common sense. 
Formal training would be nice but not required. Like I said above knowing what not to do is just as important as knowing what to do. and quite frankly out here in southern California. we have a hand full of good gunsmiths. but we have a whole barrel full of AR15, and glock guys that think they can fix anything. 


 

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8 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think 30+ years experience in curing or repairing every imaginable mechanical problem  with the broad array of cowboy guns for yourself, many others and me (recently),  with much of that experience under mid-match pressure at the unloading table, and then explaining and teaching many of us the best way to address problems with our own guns, IS training in the gunsmithing field, and you're very good at it.  You've saved a lot of shoot days for a lot of people, including me.  

Don't under-rate your expertise.  

Well based on this gentleman's testimony I'd have to agree. that's very far from a Hack

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8 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

A dropped, cocked revolver would be fully in battery and would most likely fire if the t-bar is removed and the hammer gap filled. 

But with the t-bar in place, it would not be in battery or  fire as long as the trigger is not pulled or jarred back far enough to raise the t-bar into firing position.  

Pulling the trigger doesn’t raise the t-bar into ‘firing position’ cocking the hammer does. I just pulled out my wife’s Single Sixes and verified that. So a cocked Ruger is ready to fire regardless of whether it has a t-bar or not.

 

Mine don’t have t-bars, hers does, the middle sons Ubertis don’t.

 

There’s no substitute for the safety between your ears. Use it and you’ll be ok.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Pulling the trigger doesn’t raise the t-bar into ‘firing position’ cocking the hammer does. I just pulled out my wife’s Single Sixes and verified that. So a cocked Ruger is ready to fire regardless of whether it has a t-bar or not.

 

Mine don’t have t-bars, hers does, the middle sons Ubertis don’t.

 

There’s no substitute for the safety between your ears. Use it and you’ll be ok.

 the trigger pull is what keeps the transfer bar in place while the hammer is falling.

 

 

Phantom

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52 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Pulling the trigger doesn’t raise the t-bar into ‘firing position’ cocking the hammer does. I just pulled out my wife’s Single Sixes and verified that. So a cocked Ruger is ready to fire regardless of whether it has a t-bar or not.

 

Mine don’t have t-bars, hers does, the middle sons Ubertis don’t.

 

There’s no substitute for the safety between your ears. Use it and you’ll be ok.

Um.... the trigger certainly is what raises the transfer bar. Not the hammer. 

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6 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Um.... the trigger certainly is what raises the transfer bar. Not the hammer. 

Is there a finger on this trigger? No. Is the transfer bar up? Yes. Unmodified Single Six, other than lighter springs.

D7513FD1-E80F-40C0-85FD-B0815EE1A887.jpeg

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I own a set of NVs. 

 

1. Cocking the hammer raises the TB to hover 3/4s of the way across the rear of the firing pin.

2. Squeezing the trigger raises the TB the last bit to cover the FP completely.

3. As the hammer falls and the trigger is kept rearward, ignition occurs.

4. If you had the gun cocked, and dropped it, and something taps/touched the trigger setting the hammer falling, the TB will drop, and prevent firing.

5.  The trigger must be kept rearward in order for the hammer to strike the firing pin to ensure the gun will only fire when the trigger is pulled and held rearward.

 

This is both a drop safety (if you drop it when cocked, just like a half cock notch), and a drop safety with a 6th round under the firing pin if it lands on the hammer (even when down on the loaded round).

 

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Pulling the trigger releases the sear and keeps the t-bar up, it does not raise it. Ok, maybe a 1/16, but it is already covering the pin.

 

Try this, cock your t-bar equipped Ruger. With no finger in the trigger guard, tap the t-bar, it moves freely, the firing pin is depressed, no trigger pull required.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Is there a finger on this trigger? No. Is the transfer bar up? Yes. Unmodified Single Six, other than lighter springs.

D7513FD1-E80F-40C0-85FD-B0815EE1A887.jpeg

It's irrelevant what raises the transfer bar during a drop. It's what keep the transfer bar up while the hammer is falling.

 

Phantom

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SMS... I took no offense, and meant none. I have great admiration for Tool & Die makers. They are skilled people, and must have a broad knowledge of things from metallurgy to machining. It provides an excellent background to venture into Gunsmithing. My professional background is in Electrical Engineering and I don't have the knowledge or experience doing many of those things. The vast majority of what I do is done with hand tools. I've been tearing apart motorcycles and cars since I was a youngster, and we learned to do a lot of things using what we had. But if I find that I can't get the job done with what I have,  I take it to a Machinist friend of mine that has both the experience and the expertise to do what I want done. But for the most part there is very little that I do that I can not do using hand tools. I got started working on guns many years ago when I took one of my Colts apart. I was amazed at just how simple it was. Since I had it apart I just as well tune it up …. right? I had seen the ads from Eddie XXXXX and saw how much he got to tune up a Colt SAA. Well heck I knew that I wasn't the sharpest pencil in the box but this thing was so simple that I wasn't about to pay anyone that kind of money.... I'd just do it myself.  It was a little over a year before I got that gun working properly again. It was so simple that I just didn't grasp the fact that each little simple thing had to be done EXACTLY right for this simple contraption to work properly. During that period, out of necessity, I learned how to recut sears and notches, replace cams and tune up those things that were so "Simple", and in the end I wondered how he could do it all at such a reasonable price. Now days there are any number of after market parts available. They are CNC made to be perfect and most folks with a little ability can drop them in and with just a little fine tuning they work pretty well. Some folks have made a business out of replacing parts. That doesn't make them a Gunsmith, but some of them are pretty darned good at replacing those parts and making the guns work well. Now, what's this about Cold Bluing a gun.... Why heck..... I've painted guns and been pretty pleased with the results! :P

 

Snakebite

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Pulling the trigger doesn’t raise the t-bar into ‘firing position’ cocking the hammer does. I just pulled out my wife’s Single Sixes and verified that. So a cocked Ruger is ready to fire regardless of whether it has a t-bar or not.

I believe your observation is in error.  The T-bar is attached to an extended limb of the trigger, and is independent of the hammer.  Hold back the hammer, pull the trigger  and watch the t-bar.  The T-bar moves up into firing position when the trigger is pulled rearward, and the trigger  is in fact pulled rearward as the hammer is retracted and cocked.  The T-bar operates independently of the hammer, except that the hammer cam is what draws the trigger rearward.  The trigger pivot radius is set to assure that the T-bar is up and remains up when the trigger is squeezed.  If you release the trigger and lower the hammer, as in decocking, the T-bar is drawn down as the trigger spring draws the trigger back to its forward rest position. 

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