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Joe Cross, SASS #13848 L

Gunfighter - crossing arms over while shooting

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Posted (edited)

At our local match yesterday a gunfighter crossed his arms over each other two or three times while shooting the revolvers. The engagement was a continuous sweep of three targets for ten shots. It was only done on this one stage. In 21 years of CAS at all levels I have never seen this done in a match; he said he has, but didn't say where.  :unsure:  Both revolvers were kept in the same plain and not moved back and forth, as in pumping, just rotated over and under. Revolvers were being cocked during this movement. Appears to waste time and possibly lose track of target order to look cool but is it unsafe gun handling? Not covered in "Safety and Handling Conventions - Revolvers" in shooter's handbook.

 

So, as a co-match director for my club, I want to make the right call, if there is one here. Ready for commentary....thanks

 

JC

 

Edited by Joe Cross, SASS #13848 L

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Posted (edited)

Sounds like there was no safety violations or illegal movement as dictated by whatever the rules imply or don’t imply.

 

 People with more smarts will probably chime in but that’s how I see it .  Maybe I’ll learn something on this thread too. ;) 

 

GG

Edited by Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274

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I would say as long as he didn’t break the 170 it was okay. I’ve shot gunfighter a few times and I can’t remember ever having to do that. :)

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He wasn't using the non-shooting arm for support, was he?

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That's not a penalty.  I see gunfighters and outlaws do that all the time. It looks cool.

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Gunfighter Style -Gunfighter style is defined as shooting with a revolver in each hand. Revolvers must be cocked and fired one handed, unsupported, one right-handed and the other left-handed. There is no set pattern as to how the revolvers are to be fired, but alternating revolvers is clearly the most efficient

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1.  Which hand crossed over the other?

 

2.  Did the shooter alternate crossing over with R over L, then L over R?

 

3.  Did he hit all the targets in their correct order?

 

(hint:  only #3 is pertinent in addressing any penalty)  ;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

Gunfighter Style -Gunfighter style is defined as shooting with a revolver in each hand. Revolvers must be cocked and fired one handed, unsupported, one right-handed and the other left-handed. There is no set pattern as to how the revolvers are to be fired, but alternating revolvers is clearly the most efficient

One arm over the other is not 'supported'.

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? I asked if he was using the non-shooting arm for support.

If one arm is resting on the other, how could it not be considered as support?

 

Maybe I don't understand what "crossed his arms" is indicating.

Or maybe I'm interpreting the rule incorrectly, in that supporting the shooting hand is not allowed, but supporting the shooting arm is...?

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34 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I would say as long as he didn’t break the 170 it was okay. I’ve shot gunfighter a few times and I can’t remember ever having to do that. :)

 

170 not broken

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28 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

He wasn't using the non-shooting arm for support, was he?

 

If he was resting wrist of shooting hand on the other wrist, it wasn't noticed. The oddity of it kinda took away from noticing anything like that. That would something to look for next time.

 

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23 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

1.  Which hand crossed over the other?

 

2.  Did the shooter alternate crossing over with R over L, then L over R?

 

3.  Did he hit all the targets in their correct order?

 

(hint:  only #3 is pertinent in addressing any penalty)  ;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

1. and 2. Both; he went right over left then left over right, alternately.

3.  He had two misses.

JC

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17 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

? I asked if he was using the non-shooting arm for support.

If one arm is resting on the other, how could it not be considered as support?

 

Maybe I don't understand what "crossed his arms" is indicating.

Or maybe I'm interpreting the rule incorrectly, in that supporting the shooting hand is not allowed, but supporting the shooting arm is...?

I don't think that is what the rule means by supported and I think it would be a classic example of 'don't be a hardass.'  Do you really think the shooter is doing that to support himself and improve his shooting?

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8 minutes ago, Joe Cross, SASS #13848 L said:

 

If he was resting wrist of shooting hand on the other wrist, it wasn't noticed. The oddity of it kinda took away from noticing anything like that. That would something to look for next time.

 

Look for why?  To call a penalty?

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't think that is what the rule means by supported and I think it would be a classic example of 'don't be a hardass.'  Do you really think the shooter is doing that to support himself and improve his shooting?

I do not know the shooter, so I cannot second-guess his intentions, nor could I possibly know how lax the rules are followed at any given club.

In some cases, then, a Gunfighter habitually using his off arm/wrist/hand to support the shooting hand is acceptable. Learn something new every day.

 

29 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:
38 minutes ago, Joe Cross, SASS #13848 L said:

 

If he was resting wrist of shooting hand on the other wrist, it wasn't noticed. The oddity of it kinda took away from noticing anything like that. That would something to look for next time.

 

Look for why?  To call a penalty? 

Well, yeah... in the same manner that spotters are assigned to look for misses or procedural penalties, looking for a shooter adhering to the prescribed conventions of his chosen category shouldn't be out of line.

Edited by J Bar Binks, #47015

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I'm far from perfect, but as an RO Instructor I'm pretty familiar with the rules and I've seen this done at local and state matches and it's never been called.   I would never call a P for that. 

 

I don't believe having crossed arms with a gun in each would be considered supported.  Perhaps if you were shooting one gun dry first, then the other, but even then I don't think so.  You might PM PWB and ask for his opinion.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm far from perfect, but as an RO Instructor I'm pretty familiar with the rules and I've seen this done at local and state matches and it's never been called.   I would never call a P for that. 

 

I don't believe having crossed arms with a gun in each would be considered supported.  Perhaps if you were shooting one gun dry first, then the other, but even then I don't think so.  You might PM PWB and ask for his opinion.

 

This is why I'm asking. I don't look to penalize shooters, but if an infraction occurs, it will be called. So, is resting one's shooting hand wrist on the other considered supported or not? If it is, then is it not adhering to category? I can't say if he did rest one wrist on the other and neither can anyone else since it was such an unusual move no one noticed that detail. If there is nothing here, then I'll let it be, but I want to make the right call if someone says, "...can he do that...?

 

Simple as that, and I look forward to any input from PWB.

 

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I have crossed over before. An example would be a Nevada sweep with targets stretching across the entire stage. Left gun shoots left target, right gun shoots middle, left gun crosses over to shoot right target, and right gun stays put to shoot middle again. The purpose would be so that the right gun isn’t even close to hitting 170, as well as only having to move and aim one gun instead of both. But I never rested one hand on the other arm while doing so. It might help with accuracy, but it would certainly slow you down as well as create a potential scenario where one gun could hit the other crossing back. 

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1 hour ago, Joe Cross, SASS #13848 L said:

 

This is why I'm asking. I don't look to penalize shooters, but if an infraction occurs, it will be called. So, is resting one's shooting hand wrist on the other considered supported or not? If it is, then is it not adhering to category? I can't say if he did rest one wrist on the other and neither can anyone else since it was such an unusual move no one noticed that detail. If there is nothing here, then I'll let it be, but I want  make the right call if someone says, "...can he do that...?

 

Simple as that, and I look forward to any input from PWB.

 

Well... You've looked through the rules, what rule do you think he/she may be violating?

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Joe Cross, SASS #13848 L said:

 

This is why I'm asking. I don't look to penalize shooters, but if an infraction occurs, it will be called. So, is resting one's shooting hand wrist on the other considered supported or not? If it is, then is it not adhering to category? I can't say if he did rest one wrist on the other and neither can anyone else since it was such an unusual move no one noticed that detail. If there is nothing here, then I'll let it be, but I want to make the right call if someone says, "...can he do that...?

 

Simple as that, and I look forward to any input from PWB.

 

The OPs question didn't address 'resting one's shooting hands wrist on the other' it asked about crossing, which isn't an infraction.  I feel comfortable saying that if in a situation like that the wrists incidentally touch it's a no-call.  If the shooter is alternating these crossings I don't think that would constitute supporting, but I will defer that to PWB.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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no call,,,,, I've seen it done,,, kinda slow but cool looking

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No call.  I've done it many times with a black pin as the TO.  It's fun to do

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The only concern would be whether the shooter actually supported the shooting hand/wrist/forearm with the opposite one in violation of the category requirement cited in previous posts (as long as no safety infractions were committed).
In that case, the penalty would be the progressive
P/SDQ/MDQ.

 

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4 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The only concern would be whether the shooter actually supported the shooting hand/wrist/forearm with the opposite one in violation of the category requirement cited in previous posts (as long as no safety infractions were committed).
In that case, the penalty would be the progressive
P/SDQ/MDQ.

 

 

Thank you PWB...this is what I wanted to confirm. I consider the matter closed.

JC

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5 hours ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

I think he swept himself,  just my thought.  Perhaps not a written safety penalty, but dangerous.

Why do you believe the shooter swept himself?

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Posted (edited)

I'm getting comfortable shooting gunfighter and hit what I'm aiming at most of the time but I've not tried to make it complicated.  I always start with my left pistol and alternate until empty - even if switching leads may be more efficient - just because I'm not capable of making it even more complicated just to gain a second.   It never occurred to me to cross arms while shooting.  Now I can see where it could be used. But I'd just swing both guns in parallel just to keep it simple.

Edited by Warden Callaway

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6 hours ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

I think he swept himself,  just my thought.  Perhaps not a written safety penalty, but dangerous.

 

I can see where it could be done safely.   A clear video example would be very telling. 

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I've done it before and I can promise you that there is no advantage gained.  Crossing pistols is strictly for show and quite often will result in a miss.  If the wrists touch, it's by accident and will probably result in slowing you down even more.

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9 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well... You've looked through the rules, what rule do you think he/she may be violating?

 

Now, none at all...matter closed. That's why I asked, in case there was a point I wasn't aware of. I appreciate everyone's input.

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Posted (edited)

I do it all the time. Actually look for opportunities to cross guns. It is no slower by the way. It has never even been questioned and I would challenge any call against it.

Edited by Tn Tombstone
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8 minutes ago, Tn Tombstone said:

I do it all the time. Actually look for opportunities to cross guns. It is no slower by the way. It has never even been questioned and I would challenge any call against it.

No slower for YOU! I’ve seen you DO it and I’ve seen a few others TRY it.

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Matthew, if the shooter pumps the guns as some gunfighters do, he has crossed one of his arms with a loaded gun, just my thoughts.   I use  a cross draw holster set up, and it was pointed out to me many years ago, that when I drew my cross draw gun I swept my arm with a loaded gun, now I make sure it is out of the way.

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When shooting GG there are many options in sequence preference you can use, dependent of number of targets and shot sequence. The goal is to not have to cross over guns during the sequence. If you start with a different gun, or the first target on the other side of the string, First because is takes a lot of time to get one gun out of the way of the other (for most). Second, you don't want to shoot yourself , or the other gun. The key here is, how good are you at shooting GF? This is not a good practice for those just starting out GF. You have enough to think about without adding this safety potential issue to the mix.

 

Your goal is to come up from the bottom of the target when aiming. When you cross arms, your coming over the top and your sight picture is covering the target till you move down the target (at which time the target may not be where you thought it was). This is big when the targets are not right next to each other. It simply takes longer to aim. This is the cause of misses during a crossover.

 

 

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NO CALL!!  (Plus one to Culpepper)

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