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Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439

Shooting an 1886 with a healed eye?

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?  EDidn’t mean to make it sound cryptic but after cataract surgery and two detached retinas in my right eye, I am now afraid to shoot a Winchester 1886 that I just purchased. Why? I just saw an episode of shooting galllery and Michael Bain’s said something about getting a detached retina shooting a 45-70!  I still have a band on my right eye from the second surgery and I definitely don’t want to go for a third one. Should I worry?

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Might want to post that question to your eye surgeon .......

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Trusting one eyesight to the comments of strangers on the Wire should never be done...I mean... Really... Never ever.

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7 hours ago, Muley Gil SASS # 57795 said:

Ask your doctor!

 

THIS!!!!!

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Ask your specialist. I have had the cataract surgery and five retina tears or partial detachments (the last was nine years ago). I shoot a Winchester  85 in 45-90 and an 86 in 45-70 with no problems.

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Well, you're asking an honest question, and I don't blame you, I'd probably do the same thing in your shoes.  However, listen to what your ophthalmologist has to say.  He/she is the only one who knows the clinical features of your case.  Not all retinal detachments are created equal... some are more/less serious than others.  I don't know your case... but your ophthalmologist knows.  There is a variance in severity across patients, so asking what others have seen or experienced is not a good idea.

 

In this day of easy lawsuits, you'll most likely get a conservative response from all providers.  Therefore, in the end, it will probably come down to a personal decision based on how much risk you are willing to take.  Just make sure you are making an informed decision base on information relevant to your case that you have discussed thoroughly with your physician.  What others have seen or done may not be pertinent to your health.  In fact, I'd suggest that hearing the stories of others, even though shared with good intentions, may give you a false impression of reduced risk.

 

Good luck with this, sir.
Doc
 

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Posted (edited)

The 45-70 can be downloaded to have no more recoil than a 45colt/44-40 caliber rifle.  If you really want to shoot it I believe it can be safely done.  You could also attempt to trade it for a pistol caliber rifle in the classified section.

Edited by July Smith
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If you’re asking us here you are already worried. Keep worrying until your doctor says not to.

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I can't believe... Well... Maybe I can... That there are folks that'll actually give answers other than "ask your doctor".

 

Folks, we're talking about someone's eyesight here!!

 

Good Lord ...

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If I recall correctly, Michael Bane also mentioned the same gun loosening up the fillings in your teeth. They were shooting loads that would take down a Cape Buffalo with one shot. Those were some hot loads. I know Michael was just joking around. However, I did shoot a 300 Win mag so many times it loosened the filling in one of my teeth. Heavy gun with light loads shouldn't be any worse than our CAS shotgun loads. I'd still okay it with the doctor first.

 

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Posted (edited)

Retinal detachments are not a "one-size fits all" deal.  So, the severity of yours may not match someone else's.  This is going to come down to a decision between you and your doctor, and how much risk you are willing to take.  Are there micro-aneurysms involved, diabetes, lattice structures that are on the verge of letting go, any areas that hemorrhage?... this is going to take some informed decision making on your part, and other people's experience won't necessarily be yours. 

 

Of course, you already know... if you see a new shower of floaters, any bright flashes, diminishing of vision in any area... get yourself back to the retina specialist immediately! 

 

 

 

Edited by McCandless
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Nimble Fingers, I had retina problems simply from flying in a plane. Have I flown since? Yes. Do I shoot big guns? Yes. Have I had any more issues? No. I was told for me that it is an aging of the fluid in the eye thing. Can it happen again? Yes at any time. Should you change your life because it might happen again? That depends how important that thing is your doing. I would have no problem stop using my ass kicken big game rifle and stick with black power (which is what I have done). I consider the risk to be moderate to high. Sometimes we have to change our game as we get older.

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PLUS ONE to PHANTOM (BOTH !!!! :ph34r:)

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As others have said "talk to your eye doc" .  Recoil is all about the weight and speed of the bullet, and the weight of the rifle.  All 3 can be played with to cut down on the amount of felt recoil.  My son has an 18 pound 45-100 Sharps that he shoots 500+ bullets, that thing kicks very little, more like a 38-55.

 

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Ok all I wanted to know if any other shooters had been told by their doctors not too shoot 45-70 because there was a chance that you could get a detached retina after Michael Blaine mentioning shooting his Marlin 1895 was chancing one. Of course when I have my periodic check up in 2 weeks I will ask the surgeon that fixed the two over a year ago if there is too good a chance to get another from the recoil. Unfortunately yes I do worry about that “veil” as I am still working as an accounting professional had would like to have both eyes working. 

 

For those of you that shared your experience thank you as that was what I was looking for. 

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Was joking, sort of. Some of the heavy boomers can quite literally detach a retina, or so I've heard...but it's a notch up from 45-70. The loads i was running in Africa were honest to goodness brutal in my light Marlin Custom Shop gun...they hit me as hard as I've ever been hit. And I've shot most of the heavy guns. Closest comparisons I can give you are a .450 Rigby or a .460 Weatherby Magnum. OTOH, the 45-70 knocked a really pissed off cape buffalo off its feet...

 

Wolf Bane

sass13557

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Yes, all things concerning this subject is 'relative'.

I've seen (and shot) a Short Bbl 45-70 Guide rifle with the Lever Revolution ammo that shredded a red dot scope in less than 50 rounds. It about detached my eyebrows!  But this is not what we are talking about here, are we?

 

You could learn to shoot without the cheek weld... At least you might be able to keep shooting.

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10 hours ago, Wolf Bane, SASS 13557 said:

Was joking, sort of. Some of the heavy boomers can quite literally detach a retina, or so I've heard...but it's a notch up from 45-70. The loads i was running in Africa were honest to goodness brutal in my light Marlin Custom Shop gun...they hit me as hard as I've ever been hit. And I've shot most of the heavy guns. Closest comparisons I can give you are a .450 Rigby or a .460 Weatherby Magnum. OTOH, the 45-70 knocked a really pissed off cape buffalo off its feet...

 

Wolf Bane

sass13557

Thank you sir for responding. Love your show, learn a lot and was asking if it really could/had happened to others. My surgeon is a young guy who doesn’t shoot. So before I put my right cheek against the stock of a 24” Moriku Winchester 1886 rifle and pull the trigger on some Hornady rounds I thought I better see if this is a possibility. The two detached retinas were cause by the healing from cats to surgery in the one eye I have. And each time I was in front of a screen at work recording journal entries. With an eyeball shaped like a football I was later told after the fact that the detachment is possible, painless and basically looks like a shade covering your eye. 

So again thank you all for your responses. If anything I will shoot from the hip of the latest addition to my lever action collection. 

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When I was about 42, I started seeing floaters in my eyes that had never been there before!  Went to a retinalogist (MD) who checks me annually due to diabetes.  So far, so good at 76+.  But he did advise me NOT to shoot a 375 H&H.  Again, CHECK WITH YOUR EYE SPECIALIST!  Yes, the .45-70 can be down-loaded quite a bit.  Lighter bullets and reduced powder charges will reduce recoil quite a lot, but CHECK WITH THE DOC!

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Kid Russel-

The first time I heard this song, by Jack Gladstone, was at an Indian Pow Wow in Denver.  Having spent 3-1/2 years driving around the Judith Basin country in a blue truck, and having hung around the C. M. Russell museum in Great Falls, I have the computer screen fog up every time I see the lyrics or play Jack's tape.  I have often said that only God and Charlie Russell can paint a western sunset!  Thanks for posting this.

In old St. Louis over in Missouri
The mighty Mississippi, well, it rolls and flows.
A son was born to Mary Russell
And it starts the legend every cowboy knows.

Young kid Russell was born to wander.
Ever westward he was bound to roam,
Just a kid of sixteen in 1880.
Up in wild Montana he found his home.

God made Montana for the wild man,
For the Piegan and the Sioux and Crow,
Saved His greatest gift for Charlie,
Said, “Get her all down before she goes.
You gotta get her all down
‘cause she's bound to go.”

God hung the stars over Judith Basin.
God put the magic in young Charlie's hands.
And all was seen and all remembered,
Every shining mountain, every longhorn brand.

He could paint the light on horsehide shining,
The great passing herds of the buffalo,
And the twisting wrist of the Houlihan throw.

God made Montana for the wild man,
For the Piegan and the Sioux and Crow,
Saved His greatest gift for Charlie,
Said, “Get her all down before she goes.
You gotta get her all down
‘cause she's bound to go.”

When the Lord called Charlie to his home up yonder
He said, “Kid Russell, I got a job for you.
You're in charge of sunsets up in old Montana
Cause I can't paint them quite as good as you,
And when you're done, we'll go out and have a few,
And Nancy Russell will make sure it's just two.”

God made Montana for the wild man,
For the Piegan and the Sioux and Crow,
Saved His greatest gift for Charlie,
Said, “Get her all down before she goes.
You gotta get her all down
‘cause she's bound to go.”

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Update for those of you in my or close to my condition. Just saw my surgeon and optometrist and both said that I could go ahead and shoot with no negative effects to my right eye where I suffered the double detached retina. So I will soon go and enjoy my 25th anniversary present from my wife, my 1886 rifle. Thank you all for you relevant advice from your own personal experience and Wolf Bane for making me aware enough to ask the question with his wonderful episode of hunting water buffalo in Africa with a 45-70 lever action. 

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Even though the Doctor as said yes, I'd still recommend that you use a low recoil loading.   And just because it's "Trapdoor safe" does not mean it will be low recoil.   I learned the hard way that Trapdoor loads that worked fine in a Trapdoor rifle kicked like a mule in a Trapdoor carbine or a 20" 1886.  

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

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Thank you for your suggestion. I did buy a pack of Hornady Leverevolution to shoot in the 1886, figuring that the 24” barrel and rest of the gun’s weight will take up a lot of the recoil. I was also concerned with shooting a P17 and an Enfield Jungle Carbine both in a .30 caliber rifle round thinking that I would also get a lot of recoil from them as well. 

Edited by Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439
spelling error

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1 hour ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

Thank you for your suggestion. I did buy a pack of Hornady Leverevolutuon to shoot in the 1886, figuring that the 24” barrel and rest of the gun’s weight will take up a lot of the recoil. I was also concerned with shooting a P17 and an Enfield Jungle Carbine both in a .30 caliber rifle round thinking that I would also get a lot of recoil from them as well. 

 

For .45-70 I use a .458" 405 grain RNFP bullet over a charge of 12 grains of Trailboss.   Very pleasant to shoot in all my rifles.

For .303 British, in my SMLE rifle I use .313" 205 grain spritzer bullet, gas checked, over 10.3 grans of Trailboss

For .30-'06 in my 1903, 1903A3 and 1903A4 rifles it's a .308" 185 grain spritzer bullet, gas checked, over 13.5 grains of Trailboss.

All of these are pleasant shooting, and have very good accuracy.

 

For use in the M1, I use GI surplus ammo or commercial ammo loaded to military specs.   Don't wanna mess with lead bullets in that gun.

 

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14 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

For .45-70 I use a .458" 405 grain RNFP bullet over a charge of 12 grains of Trailboss.   Very pleasant to shoot in all my rifles.

For .303 British, in my SMLE rifle I use .313" 205 grain spritzer bullet, gas checked, over 10.3 grans of Trailboss

For .30-'06 in my 1903, 1903A3 and 1903A4 rifles it's a .308" 185 grain spritzer bullet, gas checked, over 13.5 grains of Trailboss.

All of these are pleasant shooting, and have very good accuracy.

 

For use in the M1, I use GI surplus ammo or commercial ammo loaded to military specs.   Don't wanna mess with lead bullets in that gun.

 

Again thanks for the advice, but I only reload .44 spcl/mag on my little Square D.  I will look to make sure that I am not getting to strong a round in the .30-06.

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One thing about "felt recoil" is that it depends on the rate of onset of the recoil impulse.  Faster-burning powders will generate a sharper impulse (kick); slower-burning powders less so.  The only problem there is that slower-burning powders must be fast enough, depending on the cartridge and bullet weight to ignite and burn properly.  Lighter bullets will help. Instead of 405 gr. bullets, use 300 gr., but not necessarily some of the hi-velocity factory loads.  Best of luck, Pard!

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The Gift by Ian Tyson. 

 

In old St. Louis over in Missouri
The mighty Mississippi, well, it rolls and flows.
A son was born to Mary Russell
And it starts the legend every cowboy knows.
.......................

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7 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

One thing about "felt recoil" is that it depends on the rate of onset of the recoil impulse.  Faster-burning powders will generate a sharper impulse (kick); slower-burning powders less so.  The only problem there is that slower-burning powders must be fast enough, depending on the cartridge and bullet weight to ignite and burn properly.  Lighter bullets will help. Instead of 405 gr. bullets, use 300 gr., but not necessarily some of the hi-velocity factory loads.  Best of luck, Pard!

Thanks for the additional advice. Don’t misunderstand, l am not going to go thru boxes of 45-70 cartridges, too expensive and not necessary, I want to shoot for the experience and for special hunting and competitions, not for punishment. Appreciate all the feedback from all posters. 

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On 4/4/2019 at 7:53 AM, Clyde Henry 7046 said:

As others have said "talk to your eye doc" .  Recoil is all about the weight and speed of the bullet, and the weight of the rifle.  All 3 can be played with to cut down on the amount of felt recoil.  My son has an 18 pound 45-100 Sharps that he shoots 500+ bullets, that thing kicks very little, more like a 38-55.

 

Must not be Buffalo Bore 38-55.  I recently watched a review of the new Henry loading gate rifle in 38-55.  One of the factory ammo fired was Buffalo Bore.  The reviewer commented on the THUMP when firing.  One suggestion is shoot black powder or subs except 777.  Also wear a Past shoulder pad.  They only work with shotgun butt stocks though.  I wear one when shooting a lot of clay pigeons with a 12ga.

Never the less I agree with those that have stated "Consult your eye doctor before shooting the rifle". 

 

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