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chestnut louie

1911 recomendations

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Thanks for all of the helpful replies!  For now this gun will only be for fun plinking.  I am hoping to learn a low recoil target load and I think a visit to a WB match will be helpful and fun to watch.

 

Chestnut 

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With a 200 gr bullet you'll need 750 fps to meet power factor for Wild Bunch. Adding on, if one goes too light on the recoil, the slide won't cycle reliably, especially if the gun is "limp wristed". It's easy to chase a lot of variables with a 1911 and it can get kinda spendy in a hurry if you're not careful. Suggest you live with yours for awhile before trying to "improve" it. Lots of great info on the internet and in books.

 

Have fun! 

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On 3/31/2019 at 11:13 PM, chestnut louie said:

Question,

 

I am looking at buying a 1911 and want to know what you think about the Ruger SR 1911 and why.  What else is available in the $700 to $800 price range.

Thanks

 

Chestnut

I have several 1911's 

Three Colts .

Two Full size and One Commander 

Three Rugers

Two Full Size and One Commander .

My Granddads Original Remington Rand he Carried in WWII.

A New Remington R1 .

Two Rock Island Armory .

Lama 380 1911.

Browning 1911 .22

 

I will say My Go too 1911.

Is my Ruger Commander !

( Love it with the G10 Grips on it   )

Just Sayin .

Rooster 

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looky here

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I plan to shoot a few boxes of factory ammo first before doing anything, if only to break it in.

 

Does anyone use the LEE 200 grain SWC  image.png.f606863520c5f9ed05e34543d56934e9.png  ?   Does it feed well?  Accurate?

 

Thanks

Chestnut

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1 hour ago, chestnut louie said:

I plan to shoot a few boxes of factory ammo first before doing anything, if only to break it in.

 

Does anyone use the LEE 200 grain SWC  image.png.f606863520c5f9ed05e34543d56934e9.png  ?   Does it feed well?  Accurate?

 

Thanks

Chestnut

I shoot the same 200 grain bullet I shoot in my .45LC for CAS. Make things very simple to keep up with when reloading. RNFP Works great!

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It'll feed well if you the get OAL just right.

 

If/when you get to reloading, I recommend Missouri Bullet's IDP #4-XD. It's a 200 gr RNFP with a Brinell of 18. I find this harder bullet works better in my 1911 - less leading than the Brinell 12 I had been using. Great accuracy too. They also make the IDP #1 200 gr SWC. I've just loaded up a batch of IDP #4-XD - Hi-Tek bullets, but haven't had a chance to shoot them yet.


Missouri Bullet Co.

 

More than you probably wanted to know.  :)

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Posted (edited)

You must not let the sharp shoulder on a SemiWadCutter (SWC) bullet for .45 auto stick up more than about 0.030" above the case mouth when you seat those.  Then taper crimp so the case mouth measures 0.471 or 0.472" diameter.   Just enough crimp so the bullet stays in place when the slide slams it up the feed ramp and into the chamber.   By keeping the top of the shoulder of the slug (what is also called the driving band) matched up with the brass of of the mouth, no lead sticks out into the forcing cone cut between the chamber and the rifling of the barrel.

 

SWC bullets are normally extremely accurate in a 1911.     Winchester Super Target is famous for giving great accuracy with cast bullets in .45 Auto.   Clays or Red Dot or Unique or 231 will also work fine.

 

Plinking 1911 loads usually only run 15,000 PSI with lead bullets.  That is low enough pressure that I actually get NO leading with a Brinnell 10 bullet (200 grain slug that I cast).  Harder bullets will shoot, but when I use a 16 Brinnell bullet, I get gas cutting of the base of the bullet and leading at the forcing cone and first half inch of rifling.   Just means I have to scrub the barrel when cleaning.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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Abilene Slim, 

 

I have been using Missouri Bullets with hitec powder coating for a while now and like them alot but I am interested in casting ( to save money and to start "another" hobby.

 

Garrison Joe,

 

Thanks for the detailed seating and crimping info.  To date I have only loaded 38 special for cowboy and plinking and 357 mag for plinking with my Henry Big Boy.

I have some learning to do when it comes to 45apc as I understand that they headspace on the case mouth.

 

Regards

Chestnut Louie

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Plinking 1911 loads usually only run 15,000 PSI with lead bullets.  That is low enough pressure that I actually get NO leading with a Brinnell 10 bullet (200 grain slug that I cast).  Harder bullets will shoot, but when I use a 16 Brinnell bullet, I get gas cutting of the base of the bullet and leading at the forcing cone and first half inch of rifling.   Just means I have to scrub the barrel when cleaning.

 

Good luck, GJ

Joe:

That's interesting, just the opposite of my experience with a stock Colt barrel (Series 80, mid 1990s manufacture). I'll have to dig thru my manuals where one of them said (as I recall) the shallow rifling of a 1911 did better with a harder cast bullet. What diameter is your bullet?

 

Louie:

Yes they headspace at the case mouth. It's a taper crimp as opposed to a roll crimp on your .38s. If you crimp too much, you can smoosh a bit lead out at the mouth, kind of like a muffin, which won't feed well. Too little crimp and the bullets can be pushed back into the case when the cartridge hits the feed ramp. Those also don't feed well either. 

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

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Posted (edited)
Quote

That's interesting,...What diameter is your bullet?

0.452"   lubed with soft lube very similar to the old Alox formula.

 

Yep, surprised me that I had to go to softer alloy to get rid of leading.   But if you read some of the Glen Fryxell articles at Cast Boolits and the Los Angeles range site, you see that he explains the mechanism that allows that to be true. 

 

IF the 1911 required a hard alloy to shoot accurately, then 1911 Bullseye Target shooters would not be able to shoot soft alloy semiwadcutter bullets into the 10 ring.   But they have for the last 80 years or so.  I think that is an old wife's tale that needs to be buried, myself.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Found it on page 71 of Lymans Cast Bullet handbook, subheading "Auto Loading Pistols". The author recommends BHN of 15-20. I'll check out Glen Fryxell. Thx!  

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OK, Slim.   Here's a pointer to the Fryxell article I referred to:

 

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_5_Lubrication.htm

 

I'll get right to the part of the hundred or so pages of reading material, and quote the section describing why I use a somewhat soft bullet and a soft lube:

 

Quote

Most American shooters are devoted magnum fans, and so they push commercial hard-cast bullets at full-house magnum levels, and the hard alloys and hard lubes do just fine in this ballistic regime. There are also quite a few bullseye shooters running .38 WCs at 725 fps and these commercial offerings do just fine in this regime as well. Where problems are encountered is in the +P range, around 1000-1100 fps. The 6-2 alloys, with their Brinnel hardness of 20 or so, are too hard to obdurate at intermediate pressures, and the hard lubes are not effectively melted or efficiently pumped in this pressure regime, so the bore sealing process breaks down and severe leading can result. Shooting oversized bullets may help, but probably not much because this leading is caused primarily by variations in the land/groove width, and once the bullet is swaged down to groove diameter in the forcing cone it is subject to all of the same variations that a groove diameter bullet would be subjected to. Softer alloys and/or softer lubes are the key to success here.

 

An "unsweet" spot just about where .45 auto loads for Wild Bunch tend to run.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

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Since my NRA Bullseye dayz-

My ,45acp load has been 200gn LSWC over 5.5gn WW231, and a COAL of 1.245", +/-.005.

I do now use a Lee FCD for the last 10 yrs or so.

This load feeds in every .45acp I have tried, including real 'Tommy' guns and a couple 'grease' guns.

My 1911s with fitted Bar-Sto barrels, have no issues either.

OLG

 

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Garrison Joe,

 

I cast some Lee 200grain tumble lube bulletsimage.png.f606863520c5f9ed05e34543d56934e9.png last night and tried them at the range in my Ruger SR1911. The Lee loading manual states that the cartage overall length must be 1.225".  When I load to this spec my cartridge looks like.  The front band hangs up on the rifling in a big way causing problems.

 

I removed the barrel and tested a cartage that had a COAL of 1.205" and it seated just fine!

 

I am reluctant to do anything that is not in the manual, so how can I resolve this problem?

 

Thanks All

Chestnut

 

868978744_1.225coal.thumb.jpg.36e6ab7db0e84c93c236238f5e7995ee.jpg

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I seldom shoot WB, but when I do I have a older mil spec Colt 1911 that is well used.  It shoots everything I feed it.  I have the Rugers, great guns and have never failed me.  Buy the best magazines you can find, spend the money and you'll be much happier. I use Wilson in all my 1911's whether made by Colt or Ruger, 9 mm  or 45.  I trusted my life to a series 70 Colt 1911 while in law enforcement.  It was a well used workhorse with match grade innards.  There are so many good ones now, just ask around, Ruger makes a quality pistol, so does Springfield and a few others in your price range.  Shop around and shoot as many as you can.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, chestnut louie said:

I cast some Lee 200grain tumble lube bullets last night and tried them at the range in my Ruger SR1911. The Lee loading manual states that the cartridge overall length must be 1.225".  When I load to this spec my cartridge looks like (pic deleted).  The front band hangs up on the rifling in a big way causing problems.

 

I removed the barrel and tested a cartridge that had a COAL of 1.205" and it seated just fine!

 

I am reluctant to do anything that is not in the manual, so how can I resolve this problem?

 

Well, as we've said many times, you CANNOT leave more than about 0.010" of lead band out in front of the case mouth.   You proved that once again.  1911 barrels CAN be throated with a reamer to open up the rifling and create a "more standard" throat.  But you won't have to do that!

 

I scaled off of your fine photo, and the top of the driving band right now seems to be about 0.110" above the case mouth.  If you would seat deeper, about 0.070" deeper, to an OAL of about  1.155" or 1.160" you will have plenty of clearance of the rifling.   You are not reducing the internal volume in the case much by seating another 0.070" deeper.  And I'll assume you are not loading any where near a max load per the Lee manual.   So, no real chance of driving pressures way up. 

 

That will roughly put the case mouth slightly above the center of the driving band.  Taper crimp so the mouth closes down to 0.471-2" with caliper measurement.  That will crimp the case mouth firmly ON the driving band, instead of the mouth "floating" over the first groove in the slug (as your pic shows), where the mouth can't do anything to make the bullet more secure against "collapse on hitting feed ramp".

 

Where did this mistake on seating depth come from?   Maybe Lee just copied a loading depth from another of their bullet designs when preparing the handbook. Maybe you looked at the OAL for a different load.  Who knows?   All I know is, that bullet's nose is not long enough to be able to use a 1.225" OAL in .45 auto.

 

I've double checked against the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for a reality check.  The Lyman 452460 bullet is a very close match to the Lee design you have.   Lyman calls the proper length for a cartridge loading their version of this bullet as 1.161" OAL.

 

Give that a try.  Watch for signs of higher pressure than normal.  Watch for any "extracted while still loaded" cartridges having rifling marks on the driving band.  Bet there won't be any problems on either test.  

 

Bottom line - in a .45 auto, the proper placement of the lead bullet top driving band is SO much more important than the OAL (until you start to get to the long OAL limit the gun was designed for, which is 1.275").     When other folks say they can use a long OAL, you can bet the nose of the bullet is MUCH longer than your bullet design has.   Yours is stubby.    An H&G 68 design SWC has a LONG.....G nose, so OAL should be longer.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Just seat the bullet to 'touch' the front band.

Use a good tapper crimp.

Also-get a Dillon case gauge to ck your rounds.

OLG

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I looked at the Lee manual and some powders (like Red Dot) specify a coal of 1.19" and that seems to fit fine.  I think for now I will try Red Dot.

 

The bottle of 800x that I just purchased for this purpose for now.

 

 

Thanks for the very detailed answer

 

Chestnut Louie

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Get some WW231 powder, and you'll be GTG.

231 was developed for the .45acp round.

OLG

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I have 5 1911's.  The Ruger (fullsize) and the Kimber (compact) are the 2 daily carry guns.  As for reloads, my Ruger does just fine with the 200 gr round nose flat point from Molten Lead.

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I just picked up a Series 70 Govt model SS. I may give WB a try. 

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Posted (edited)

Remington has a $75 rebate going on right now. With rebate a Remington 1911R1 at my LGS cost would be $489.....

Edited by Rancho Roy

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7 hours ago, chestnut louie said:

coal of 1.19" and that seems to fit fine.  I think for now I will try Red Dot.

 

Red Dot will work very nicely from my experience with it in .45 auto and 1911s.

GJ

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I have a SR1911 that I shoot in Wild Bunch. I use a 200 grain RNFP with no problems. Mine is persnickety about magazines. AS long as I am using the  Wilson or Chip McCormick mags that i have no issues. 

My Springfield will feed anything and run with any mag in good shape.

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9 minutes ago, Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L said:

I have a SR1911 that I shoot in Wild Bunch. I use a 200 grain RNFP with no problems. Mine is persnickety about magazines. AS long as I am using the  Wilson or Chip McCormick mags that i have no issues. 

My Springfield will feed anything and run with any mag in good shape.

 

I've not found any Wilson mags without bumpers on the bottom.

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5 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

I've not found any Wilson mags without bumpers on the bottom.

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/mobile/920-Series-1911-Magazine-45-ACP-Full-Size-7-Round-Stainless-Welded-Base-Plate/productinfo/920-45FS7/

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Posted (edited)

Gracias Boggus.

 

Decent price, too.

Edited by Abilene, SASS # 27489

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I have always heard if you are trying to make power factor you have less perceived recoil with a heavy bullet moving slower. Since the 230 LRN bullets feed so well in a 1911 and the fact you are trying to make power factor I just used those. 

 

I never had a failure in my Kimber Custom TLE II in any match but they are more $$$ than you asked about new but I paid in the price range you were asking about for mine used. A friend of mine was selling it and I never owned a Kimber so I bought it for WB. It had trigger work done and I swapped the main spring and it's a real accurate and reliable 1911. 

 

If you shoot WB at all you notice if you have no failures you are about guaranteed to finish well as most people fight the shotgun and pistol for most of the match...…...lol

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On 5/2/2019 at 4:35 PM, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

I've not found any Wilson mags without bumpers on the bottom.

They are kinda like a Sasquatch. Rarely seen but they do exist, :ph34r: sometimes you might be looking at one and realize what it is.

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1 hour ago, Cowboy Junky said:

I have always heard if you are trying to make power factor you have less perceived recoil with a heavy bullet moving slower. Since the 230 LRN bullets feed so well in a 1911 and the fact you are trying to make power factor I just used those. 

 

I never had a failure in my Kimber Custom TLE II in any match but they are more $$$ than you asked about new but I paid in the price range you were asking about for mine used. A friend of mine was selling it and I never owned a Kimber so I bought it for WB. It had trigger work done and I swapped the main spring and it's a real accurate and reliable 1911. 

 

If you shoot WB at all you notice if you have no failures you are about guaranteed to finish well as most people fight the shotgun and pistol for most of the match...…...lol

You are correct about a slow moving 230. After tons and tons of testing, I can prove with split times between shots.

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