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Cibola Al

Classic Cowboy holster clarification

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The rule for CC holsters reads:

 

No Buscadero or drop holster rigs allowed (i.e.,  part of the grip must be above the belt on which the holster hangs). 

 

I was hoping to get by with a slight drop such as these from JM Leather (I intend to use a 7.5" 1875 and the extra inch or 2 would be nice)

 

Technically they are drop holsters, but clearly part of the grip is above the belt.

 

Yay or nay?

 

 

007a.jpg

020.JPG

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Those are good to go.

 

I have a couple of rigs built with 2" of drop; both legal, but barely. Like the handbook states as long as the top of the grip is above the top of the belt.

 

I'll add to just tell the maker to make sure they are legal for Classic Cowboy. If they don't know what that means get someone else.

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Agree, as long as the top of the grip is above the belt your OK.

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3 hours ago, Cibola Al said:

The rule for CC holsters reads:

 

No Buscadero or drop holster rigs allowed (i.e.,  part of the grip must be above the belt on which the holster hangs). 

 

I was hoping to get by with a slight drop such as these from JM Leather (I intend to use a 7.5" 1875 and the extra inch or 2 would be nice)

 

Technically they are drop holsters, but clearly part of the grip is above the belt.

 

Yay or nay?

 

 

007a.jpg

020.JPG

On a side note, very cool schofield and rig. 

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I should be clear, those aren't my holsters or guns, the images are from the JM Leather website. They are great looking rigs to my eyes.

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The bottom holster would be OK, but IMHO, the top one would not. Classic Cowboy is supposed to represent what "real" cowboys would have worn, so the totally exposed trigger guard and the open front would not qualify. And in spite of the grips being high enough, it is still clearly a "drop holster".  FWIW, I could make a Buscadero rig and still make the grips high enough, but it would still be a Buscadero. Does this look to you like something that might have been worn back in the day?

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2 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

The bottom holster would be OK, but IMHO, the top one would not. Classic Cowboy is supposed to represent what "real" cowboys would have worn, so the totally exposed trigger guard and the open front would not qualify. And in spite of the grips being high enough, it is still clearly a "drop holster".  FWIW, I could make a Buscadero rig and still make the grips high enough, but it would still be a Buscadero. Does this look to you like something that might have been worn back in the day?

I disagree with this. The rules are what they are, in black and white and not subject to anyone's opinion of what they mean. The rule in it's entirety says

 

No Buscadero or drop holster rigs allowed (i.e., part of the grip must be above the belt on which the holster hangs).

 

Nothing is mentioned about exposed trigger guard and open front. The rules are there to ensure that each contestant is held to the same standard, regardless of where they shoot or the opinion of the Match Director. Now surely all rules are not this way, having some leeway. But this one seems very clear, at least to me.

 

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"No Buscadero or drop holster rigs allowed (i.e., part of the grip must be above the belt on which the holster hangs)."

i.e. 

ABBREVIATION
  1. that is to say (used to add explanatory information or to state something in different words).
    Latin: "id est" - "that is"

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I too like to drink large quantities of alcohol before I try and interpret SASS rules.

 

:mellow:

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56 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

The bottom holster would be OK, but IMHO, the top one would not. Classic Cowboy is supposed to represent what "real" cowboys would have worn, so the totally exposed trigger guard and the open front would not qualify. And in spite of the grips being high enough, it is still clearly a "drop holster".  FWIW, I could make a Buscadero rig and still make the grips high enough, but it would still be a Buscadero. Does this look to you like something that might have been worn back in the day?

I was going to say something but it sounded mean so I’ll be nice 

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There's nothing wrong with Slim posting his opinion. Discourse is not a bad thing, so long as we remain respectful of each others rights and opinions.

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No don’t get me wrong there was no disrespect intended 

After I prof read what I wrote it looked like I was getting onto Slim and I wasn’t so I just deleted it 

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1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

There's nothing wrong with Slim posting his opinion. Discourse is not a bad thing, so long as we remain respectful of each others rights and opinions.

Of course there's nothing wrong with anyone posting their opinion...we'z just funning...

 

But remember when yer speaking in absolutes, yer setting yerself up.

 

:o

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Life would be so much simpler if the rule book simply stated the rule.

No caveats - no explanation - no interjecting semantic details to get hung up on.

State the desired rule and move on.

 

Classic Cowboy must use holsters that carry the pistol in a manner that some portion of the grip is ABOVE the belt the holster is carried by.

Done.

 

It does not matter if it's a "drop loop" or buscadero rig IF the grip is above the belt.

 

Then it is a simple yes or no in regard to any examination of a holster rig.

Grip above belt?  Yes - legal for Classic

Grip below belt?  Not 

 

Paring the extraneous words from the rules down to their simplest and desired meaning would eliminate a large number of WTC and Is this legal?

 

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3 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

The bottom holster would be OK, but IMHO, the top one would not. Classic Cowboy is supposed to represent what "real" cowboys would have worn, so the totally exposed trigger guard and the open front would not qualify. And in spite of the grips being high enough, it is still clearly a "drop holster".  FWIW, I could make a Buscadero rig and still make the grips high enough, but it would still be a Buscadero. Does this look to you like something that might have been worn back in the day?

 

I hear what you're saying! I would lean towards the most period authentic holster that I could reasonably manipulate. I used that picture primarily to illustrate the drop. I was actually thinking of having somebody build me a holster in the style of the one Frank James wore except with an inch or 2 of drop to save wear and tear on my old shoulder.

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I agree with Creeker. The rule as written seem to indicate that drop holsters and Buscaderos by their nature have the grip below the belt, when this is not necessarily so. I did say "IMHO" :)   I shoot 7.5" pistols myself, and was thinking of doing the crossed belt thing to lower the handguns a bit.

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1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I agree with Creeker. The rule as written seem to indicate that drop holsters and Buscaderos by their nature have the grip below the belt, when this is not necessarily so. I did say "IMHO" :)   I shoot 7.5" pistols myself, and was thinking of doing the crossed belt thing to lower the handguns a bit.

Don't let that "I agree with Creeker" stuff get too widespread. 

You'll find yourself banned from certain states.

 

Rules should simply (and only) state what they want to avoid or accomplish.

Adding phrases only as needed to convey the actual desire of the rule.

If the rules desire is no pistol grips lower than belt - that is all that is necessary to be stated. 

If there is an additional desire to preclude buscadero rigs (or the color purple or rough side leather... Whatever); those are separate rule lines to avoid conflation with the initial rule.

 

* Classic Cowboy must use holsters that carry the pistol in a manner that some portion of the grip is above the belt the holster is carried by.

* No buscadero holsters or rigs/ regardless of pistol height relative to belt are allowed.

* No purple or derivative of the color purple is allowed.

* No rough side out leather is allowed.

 

 

 

 

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I know this isn't NCOWS, and I don't want it to be. But it would be nice if we had at least one category for those of us who at least try to look like what most of us? think cowboys should look like and shoot with. CC is the closest we have managed, with the exception of requiring BP. I hate to see the rules nit picked until it isn't "Classic" anymore. To me, if the holster doesn't look like something I have seen in "Packing Iron" then it doesn't look right to me. But then, I shoot 1872 Opentops with 7.5" barrels with full power BP 44-40's.  To each his own.

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1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I know this isn't NCOWS, and I don't want it to be. But it would be nice if we had at least one category for those of us who at least try to look like what most of us? think cowboys should look like and shoot with. CC is the closest we have managed, with the exception of requiring BP. I hate to see the rules nit picked until it isn't "Classic" anymore. To me, if the holster doesn't look like something I have seen in "Packing Iron" then it doesn't look right to me. But then, I shoot 1872 Opentops with 7.5" barrels with full power BP 44-40's.  To each his own.

Since you're shooting with all types of categories within a posse...and you can personally dress any way you like, what difference does any of this make?

 

Just curious...

 

Phantom

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If you're going for true Old West cowboy realism then you better stick to a single revolver, probably worn butt forward/reverse side. Any caliber from .36 cap and ball on up. Small sack of cartridges if using a cartridge revolver. All loads black powder. Single or double action revolver.

 

Most likely a small folding knife, no large Bowie. Gun leather should be something from Rick Bachman or similar.

 

And either a carbine or shotgun riding back in the wagon. The carbine is NOT 45 Colt caliber. All black powder ammo.

 

And no bathing for at least 30 days, torn clothing, sunburned and covered with dust, run down boot heels, roll your own smokes or bite off a chaw, and a might tired, sore and cranky.

 

:D

 

For SASS Classic Cowboy, almost anything goes and should. Just stick with mandatory requirements as listed in SASS handbook and have fun.

 

 

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In the long run is doesn't make any real difference, as there are no prizes or anything. But that's like asking guys why do they bother to install short stroke kits, better sights, and use holsters with the top half of the gun sticking out? It helps you do better against the guys that are in your category. So it is important to keep things as equal as possible in your particular category, otherwise, it isn't actually a specific category, is it? If we start getting a " just shoot what ya want, why does it matter?" attitude, we might as well just eliminate categories altogether and just rank everybody by total time. When I shoot CC it is specifically so that at least I will be shooting against guys who have to shoot a caliber that starts with 4, they have to shoot Duelist, and they can't shoot a '97.  And they have to dress up even if it can get a bit uncomfortable, just to look the part. I don't expect everyone to go through that much trouble, but if you are going to shoot any sort of particular class, at least do more than just the minimum. Otherwise, why bother?

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16 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

In the long run is doesn't make any real difference, as there are no prizes or anything. But that's like asking guys why do they bother to install short stroke kits, better sights, and use holsters with the top half of the gun sticking out? It helps you do better against the guys that are in your category. So it is important to keep things as equal as possible in your particular category, otherwise, it isn't actually a specific category, is it? If we start getting a " just shoot what ya want, why does it matter?" attitude, we might as well just eliminate categories altogether and just rank everybody by total time. When I shoot CC it is specifically so that at least I will be shooting against guys who have to shoot a caliber that starts with 4, they have to shoot Duelist, and they can't shoot a '97.  And they have to dress up even if it can get a bit uncomfortable, just to look the part. I don't expect everyone to go through that much trouble, but if you are going to shoot any sort of particular class, at least do more than just the minimum. Otherwise, why bother?

Equal = all "Things" are available to everyone.

 

They are.

 

And frankly, one can dress CC without any discomfort at all. 

 

Phantom

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50 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

In the long run is doesn't make any real difference, as there are no prizes or anything. But that's like asking guys why do they bother to install short stroke kits, better sights, and use holsters with the top half of the gun sticking out? It helps you do better against the guys that are in your category. So it is important to keep things as equal as possible in your particular category, otherwise, it isn't actually a specific category, is it? If we start getting a " just shoot what ya want, why does it matter?" attitude, we might as well just eliminate categories altogether and just rank everybody by total time. When I shoot CC it is specifically so that at least I will be shooting against guys who have to shoot a caliber that starts with 4, they have to shoot Duelist, and they can't shoot a '97.  And they have to dress up even if it can get a bit uncomfortable, just to look the part. I don't expect everyone to go through that much trouble, but if you are going to shoot any sort of particular class, at least do more than just the minimum. Otherwise, why bother?

 

I shoot Classic and my caliber doesn't start with a 4 it starts with a 3.

38 WCF or 38-40

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Not true. In CC I can't shoot a '97. I can't shoot a 38 Special. I can't shoot 2 handed. In B-western I can't shoot my '66's. So "all things are available to everyone" is just not true. The Categories have restrictions, and I wish some people would respect them more and stop trying to out-wit the rules. Just one of those pet peeves of mine, but I don't let it ruin my fun. I try and shoot against the guys who are like me and stick more with what I think was the intention of the category. I don't tell anyone else what to do, but I can and do express my opinion on things.

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24 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Not true. In CC I can't shoot a '97. I can't shoot a 38 Special. I can't shoot 2 handed. In B-western I can't shoot my '66's. So "all things are available to everyone" is just not true. The Categories have restrictions, and I wish some people would respect them more and stop trying to out-wit the rules. Just one of those pet peeves of mine, but I don't let it ruin my fun. I try and shoot against the guys who are like me and stick more with what I think was the intention of the category. I don't tell anyone else what to do, but I can and do express my opinion on things.

Apparently you didn't understand what I was saying...or I just did a poor job on my side.

 

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So it is important to keep things as equal as possible in your particular category, otherwise, it isn't actually a specific category, is it?

Everyone within a category has the same opportunity to do everything that the category allows. So everyone IS equal in the sense that they all have the same set of rules.

 

What am I missing here???

 

Phantom

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45 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

 

I shoot Classic and my caliber doesn't start with a 4 it starts with a 3.

38 WCF or 38-40

 

The 38-40 is a misnomer. The designation is backwards. It IS a 40 caliber backed by 38 grains of BP. The caliber DOES however technically start with a 3, so...

 

You probably knew that though. ;)

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

...And frankly, one can dress CC without any discomfort at all. 

 

Phantom

 

100% correct.

 

I've been doing it and enjoying the "discomfort" of all that "extra" accoutrementing for years. Any more, when I start removing it after a match I feel very, uh... not naked exactly, but you get the point.  ;) For me, CAS just ain't CAS without all the CC stuff.

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2 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

 

The 38-40 is a misnomer. The designation is backwards. It IS a 40 caliber backed by 38 grains of BP. The caliber DOES however technically start with a 3, so...

 

You probably knew that though. ;)

 

Yep but the original nomenclature was 38 Winchester Center Fire WCF

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14 hours ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

 

I shoot Classic and my caliber doesn't start with a 4 it starts with a 3.

38 WCF or 38-40

That’s incorrect. The caliber does start with a 4. It’s the cartridge that doesn’t. I know, it’s just semantics. But caliber is a measurement and cartridge is the name. 

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40 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

That’s incorrect. The caliber does start with a 4. It’s the cartridge that doesn’t. I know, it’s just semantics. But caliber is a measurement and cartridge is the name. 

 

Yep you got me there. B)

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Everybody has an opinion... but it is only the rule that counts. No doubt that some of the rules are subjective... but this in NOT one of them. How much clearer can it be? Geeze the grip is either above or below the top of the belt .... it can NOT be even with the top of the belt or it would not qualify for use in any category..................right??? :wacko:

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15 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Everybody has an opinion... but it is only the rule that counts. No doubt that some of the rules are subjective... but this in NOT one of them. How much clearer can it be? Geeze the grip is either above or below the top of the belt .... it can NOT be even with the top of the belt or it would not qualify for use in any category..................right??? :wacko:

If the grip is even with the top of the belt it would be legal for every category except Classic Cowboy, which must be above; or B-Western, which it must be below.

 

Know of shooters who believe when it is even they are good to go in any category.  The progressive penalty for not complying with category requirements cures this when they try to shoot CC or BW.

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Oh.... tnx for clearing that up for me.

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