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Fired cartridge high primer pistol jam?


Hellbender

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This weekend at one of the stages at Trailhead, after emptying my first pistol and getting two shots off from my second pistol, I couldn't cock the hammer more than just a tiny bit.  I tried to force it, it wouldn't budge,  I didn't think to try to turn the cylinder by hand, so I laid the pistol  down, declared "broke gun" and then went on to finish the stage with rifle and shotgun.  I assumed I had a high primer (but this would have been strange because I had spun the cylinder after loading), but when I took out the cylinder at the unloading table, all three unfired rounds were perfectly fine.  The high primer was a spent primer on one of the two empty cartridge cases. It wasn't out much, not straight out but bent and at an angle (maybe from me trying to force it),  but just enough to jam my gun. 

 

The unloading table officer told me it had been blown back and someone else told me it happened because the brass was "old".   Someone else told me there might have been crud built up on the plate behind the cylinder near the firing pin or their might be some roughness there,  but that area was clean and smooth.  I was also told that this is a rare event.

 

I'm kind of new to this game (about 5 years now) but between matches and practice, I've shot probably more than 20,000 rounds through my pistols and this has never happened to me before.  A few other shooters, far more experienced than me, said it had never happened to them.

 

How common or uncommon is this and why do you think it happened?  If it matters, I use stainless steel Ruger New Vaqueros.

 

Thanks!

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One of my pards had a similar problem, we determined was a slightly oversized primer pocket on some well used brass.

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27 minutes ago, Mr w said:

Did that load feel like it could have been a light powder charge. Light loads can let the primer back out.

 

13 minutes ago, El Cubano said:

It was probablh a light load which means the brass didn't slam back in to the shield and keep that primer in.

 

It didn't feel any different or sound any different when the bullet hit the steel, but it certainly was possible and your explanations make sense.  Thanks!

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Yep, a real light load in that one case, or a very loose primer pocket.   Light loads don't produce enough pressure to force the case back against the recoil shield as it fires.   So, primer moves back but case doesn't, leaving primer high on that case.

 

When loading, watch for both very easy to seat primers, and things that lead to inconsistent powder drops.   An RCBS powder lockout die is what I run on all my cartridge presses to help ensure I am getting a consistent powder charge. 

 

Good luck, GJ

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20 minutes ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

One of my pards had a similar problem, we determined was a slightly oversized primer pocket on some well used brass.

The only way I know when my brass is too well used is when the case splits.  Is there any other way to tell?  Also, when I'm reloading sometimes that primer goes in a lot easier than the usual but its not that unusual for that to happen.  Maybe I should set those aside for use in the rifle.  Thanks!

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1 minute ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Yep, a real light load in that one case, or a very loose primer pocket.   Light loads don't produce enough pressure to force the case back against the recoil shield as it fires.   So, primer moves back but case doesn't, leaving primer high on that case.

 

When loading, watch for both very easy to seat primers, and things that lead to inconsistent powder drops.   An RCBS powder lockout die is what I run on all my cartridge presses to help ensure I am getting a consistent powder charge. 

 

Good luck, GJ

I use a Dillion SDB and I've got an LED sewing machine lamp positioned to shine in the case at position 3.  When I seat the primer at position 2, I always look into the cartridge at station 3 to make sure there's powder in it.  I shoot 38 special and I use Trailboss powder.  I started by using 3.7 grain but switched 3.4 grain more than a year ago. These rounds were from after I switched. Maybe I should go back to 3.7 grain to make it less likely I've have a light load.  Thanks GJ!

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Primers are reseated into the pocket when the case is pushed back into the recoil shield... You need a certain amount of pressure to do this.

Thanks Phantom.  You as well as a few others have added to my knowledge of how this all works!

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I 'think' this has happened to me but I use my left hand to rotate the cylinder while I cock the hammer with the right one and get the cylinder to turn--thinking I'm pushing the primer back in enough to allow cylinder to rotate

 

Like you my determination of when brass has reached the end of its life are the splits in the cases.  

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29 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

I 'think' this has happened to me but I use my left hand to rotate the cylinder while I cock the hammer with the right one and get the cylinder to turn--thinking I'm pushing the primer back in enough to allow cylinder to rotate

 

Like you my determination of when brass has reached the end of its life are the splits in the cases.  

Yep, that's what I should have done with my other hand when it happened.  Thanks!

 

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I had a similar issue a few weeks ago. On my second pistol (a New Model Vaquero), on my last shot a got a misfire. I kept cocking the hammer and firing until the cylinder came around, but still no bang. Handed the gun off to the timing officer. When I unloaded, the unfired round did not have a dent in the primer. What? I can't explain that. When I got home and cleaned the gun, I loaded some snap caps in and the cylinder turned in the normal manner. I also put in a sized, case with only a primer in and shot it and the primer did fire. So, I'm at a loss. Can anyone venture an opinion on what happed to my cartridge/gun?

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OP-What's the load you were using?

What brand case and primer?

I will say it sound like the classic 'fly-fart' load level where the case doesn't reseat the primer.

BTW-how much front to back play do you have in the cyl when it's in the gun?

OLG

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55 minutes ago, Lawman Mays said:

I had a similar issue a few weeks ago. On my second pistol (a New Model Vaquero), on my last shot a got a misfire. I kept cocking the hammer and firing until the cylinder came around, but still no bang. Handed the gun off to the timing officer. When I unloaded, the unfired round did not have a dent in the primer. What? I can't explain that. When I got home and cleaned the gun, I loaded some snap caps in and the cylinder turned in the normal manner. I also put in a sized, case with only a primer in and shot it and the primer did fire. So, I'm at a loss. Can anyone venture an opinion on what happed to my cartridge/gun?

Take the grips off, and with brake cleaner flush the insides out.

You run'n 'lite' hammer springs?

OLG

 

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LM: Maybe you have a bad locking notch, that allows that chamber to over-rotate when cocked hard. 

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59 minutes ago, Lawman Mays said:

I had a similar issue a few weeks ago. On my second pistol (a New Model Vaquero), on my last shot a got a misfire. I kept cocking the hammer and firing until the cylinder came around, but still no bang. Handed the gun off to the timing officer. When I unloaded, the unfired round did not have a dent in the primer. What? I can't explain that. When I got home and cleaned the gun, I loaded some snap caps in and the cylinder turned in the normal manner. I also put in a sized, case with only a primer in and shot it and the primer did fire. So, I'm at a loss. Can anyone venture an opinion on what happed to my cartridge/gun?

Check the hand that locks the cylinder. It might not be locking the cylinder on a particular chamber and when running the hammer vigorously it'll pass right by that chamber every time. Latch spring could be bent or weak.

 

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP-What's the load you were using?

What brand case and primer?

I will say it sound like the classic 'fly-fart' load level where the case doesn't reseat the primer.

BTW-how much front to back play do you have in the cyl when it's in the gun?

OLG

I was using 3.4 gn Trailboss, Federal Magnum primer,  125 gn bullet, and one of a large variety of cases I have accumulated over the years.  I'll have to dig out that one spent case from the 200 empties I brought back from the shoot to find out what the brand was.

 

I can't recall ever noticing any front to back play in the cylinder when its in the gun but I've never checked for it.

 

I'll post the answers to these two questions later on today.

 

Thanks OLG!

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3.4 in a 38 should be plenty as i run that with a 200gr in a cowboy special. I'm thinking that maybe the powder bridged, or you had a bad drop on that one case. Out of 100 rounds i'll usually get 1 TB drop that is significantly lower, like in the 2-2.5gr range instead of the 3.2-3.5 range i shoot for.

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11 minutes ago, El Cubano said:

3.4 in a 38 should be plenty as i run that with a 200gr in a cowboy special. I'm thinking that maybe the powder bridged, or you had a bad drop on that one case. Out of 100 rounds i'll usually get 1 TB drop that is significantly lower, like in the 2-2.5gr range instead of the 3.2-3.5 range i shoot for.

What could cause a bad drop like that?  Does the amount of powder present in the hopper have any effect?   Thanks!

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6 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

What could cause a bad drop like that?  Does the amount of powder present in the hopper have any effect?   Thanks!

All kinds of things.

 

Trail boss is notoriously bad at being metered since its such a large flake. Common things are bridging (which is when flakes block up the hole in the meter, lack of settling where the "volume" happens to be right but its cause there is a lot of air space instead of actual powder, also more random things like static cling, having a baffle (i've found the baffle makes it worse in my hornady drop with TB), or even humidity in the powder.

A few things you can do to avoid this is get a small 5 dollar aquarium air pump and slap it to the side to help settle the powder, use the rifle metering insert not the pistol, take out the baffle for TB if you are using a hornady powder drop, and keep the hopper relatively consistent in terms of fullness.

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Quote

things that lead to inconsistent powder drops

 

Leaving powder in measure for more than about 24 hours - it clumps and bridges if atmospheric conditions are right

Oil, grease in the powder measure slide or drop tube (fix with a good cleaning with rubbing alcohol on swabs and cotton cloths)

Static on the powder measure hopper (defeat that by wiping inside of hopper with a used dryer sheet)

Not fully cycling the press handle (Dillon measures drop at the very end of the ram stroke)

Bouncing powder out of case thru overly fast or rough cycling

Letting powder run out in measure

 

Good luck, GJ

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59 minutes ago, El Cubano said:

All kinds of things.

 

Trail boss is notoriously bad at being metered since its such a large flake. Common things are bridging (which is when flakes block up the hole in the meter, lack of settling where the "volume" happens to be right but its cause there is a lot of air space instead of actual powder, also more random things like static cling, having a baffle (i've found the baffle makes it worse in my hornady drop with TB), or even humidity in the powder.

A few things you can do to avoid this is get a small 5 dollar aquarium air pump and slap it to the side to help settle the powder, use the rifle metering insert not the pistol, take out the baffle for TB if you are using a hornady powder drop, and keep the hopper relatively consistent in terms of fullness.

 

57 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Leaving powder in measure for more than about 24 hours - it clumps and bridges if atmospheric conditions are right

Oil, grease in the powder measure slide or drop tube (fix with a good cleaning with rubbing alcohol on swabs and cotton cloths)

Static on the powder measure hopper (defeat that by wiping inside of hopper with a used dryer sheet)

Not fully cycling the press handle (Dillon measures drop at the very end of the ram stroke)

Bouncing powder out of case thru overly fast or rough cycling

Letting powder run out in measure

 

Good luck, GJ

Thank you both.  I'll follow your suggestions!

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1 hour ago, Hellbender said:

I was using 3.4 gn Trailboss, Federal Magnum primer,  125 gn bullet, and one of a large variety of cases I have accumulated over the years.  I'll have to dig out that one spent case from the 200 empties I brought back from the shoot to find out what the brand was.

 

I can't recall ever noticing any front to back play in the cylinder when its in the gun but I've never checked for it.

 

I'll post the answers to these two questions later on today.

 

Thanks OLG!

Are you using a firm crimp?

Don't let the hopper get below 1/3 full or fill more than 3/4 full when adding powder.

OLG

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20 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Are you using a firm crimp?

Don't let the hopper get below 1/3 full or fill more than 3/4 full when adding powder.

OLG

Yes, firm crimp.  I refill the hopper when the powder gets about half filled but I've always been filling to the top.  Thanks for the tip!

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7 hours ago, Hellbender said:

I tried to force it, Never a good idea.it wouldn't budge,  I didn't think to try to turn the cylinder by hand Whew!, so I laid the pistol  down, declared "broke gun" and then went on to finish the stage with rifle and shotgun. This was the best idea. Ya done good!

 

A number of years ago, a pard at our club had a similar situation. He tried forcing the cylinder to rotate with his off hand and blew his thumb off. A high, unfired primer set the round off with the cylinder not fully indexed with the barrel. Ruptured the cylinder in his hand.

 

If you find you want to force something, declare a broken gun and deal with it later.

 

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Scale check the powder charge every tenth round. You may well want to up the chg to 3.5gn.

That powder will very in charge more than most, and the main reason I refuse to load it.

When was the last time you calibrated your powder scale?

OLG

 

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50 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

I tried to force it, Never a good idea.it wouldn't budge,  I didn't think to try to turn the cylinder by hand Whew!, so I laid the pistol  down, declared "broke gun" and then went on to finish the stage with rifle and shotgun. This was the best idea. Ya done good!

 

A number of years ago, a pard at our club had a similar situation. He tried forcing the cylinder to rotate with his off hand and blew his thumb off. A high, unfired primer set the round off with the cylinder not fully indexed with the barrel. Ruptured the cylinder in his hand.

 

If you find you want to force something, declare a broken gun and deal with it later.

Will not try to force it again and for sure won't try to turn cylinder by hand if something like that happens again - thanks for the great warning/advice!

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53 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Scale check the powder charge every tenth round. You may well want to up the chg to 3.5gn.

That powder will very in charge more than most, and the main reason I refuse to load it.

When was the last time you calibrated your powder scale?

OLG

 

Thanks for the advice.  I don't check the powder charge very often, but when I do check it I find it has never changed.  I calibrate the scale each time before I use it.

 

BTW - I was unable to locate that one empty case after examining the approx. 200 empties I brought back home.  I don't know what happened to it.  I know I didn't throw it away.  It will remain a mystery!

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52 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

5 yrs into the game and have you read any reloading manuals ? :huh: :FlagAm:

Been reloading for the last 2 of those 5 years.  I did read a little about reloading but learned just about everything I know from a pard who has been reloading for many decades.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
12 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

Will not try to force it again and for sure won't try to turn cylinder by hand if something like that happens again - thanks for the great warning/advice!

 

8 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

Been reloading for the last 2 of those 5 years.  I did read a little about reloading but learned just about everything I know from a pard who has been reloading for many decades.

I would suggest reading a lot more .Stay safe and enjoy the game. :FlagAm:

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5 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 

I would suggest reading a lot more .Stay safe and enjoy the game. :FlagAm:

Thanks, I plan to do that now!

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13 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

Been reloading for the last 2 of those 5 years.  I did read a little about reloading but learned just about everything I know from a pard who has been reloading for many decades.

 

Sometimes pards don't know as much as we might think. Not suggesting that's the case with your mentor. I am suggesting you read those reloading manuals cover to cover anyway (I have three). I'll bet there are some things that haven't been covered in your conversations, not for lack of knowledge, but because there's so much to cover. I've been reloading for 10 years and there are still things to be learned.

 

One of the best books there is: https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bullet-Handbook-4Th/dp/B004DWBKQY/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=234327295654&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9023901&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1o1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12258714700744991341&hvtargid=kwd-6900806613&keywords=cast+bullet+handbook&qid=1553639892&s=gateway&sr=8-1

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

Most of all remember that to be able to survive the wire, you need the hide of an Armadillo. :D :FlagAm:

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