WTC: Starting Position?

[Phantom, SASS #54973 2,947]

1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I've started in a faulted position twice, mea culpa all the way. I staged my long guns in the wrong spot and shot them from the wrong spot.

 

One TO apologized profusely.  The other asked why I did that.

Because a good thoughtful TO will feel bad...

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 312]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Referring to staging guns. I never done nor seen a shooter given a P for the "Starting Position" of their body...if you will...

 

The most common error is the staging of guns...particularly if the revolvers are to be staged as that isn't the norm. 

 

If after running a stage, one of the stage officials tells the TO that he/she started them in the wrong location or standing position, and that a P needs to be assessed, I'd probably ask why they didn't say something before the beep...geeze...stage officials are supposed to help the shooters. Ya just don't stand there are do nothing...and then just smile at the shooter as say "It's your responsibility, not mine".

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

Can you show me where this section is referring to staging guns?  It speaks to starting position and location.  

 

The TO initially attempted to get her into the intended starting position so any comments by the other range officials prior to the beep is moot.  

 

Perhaps the shooter didn't understand the intended starting position of "At the Ready" since it wasn't demonstrated during the reading of the stage instructions.  

 

No penalties were applied as she was unable to load the 11th round into her rifle and ultimately started from "At the Ready" on the restart.  That suggests to me she knew what the position entails. 

 

The discussion between the range official and the TO occurred after the stage had been completed as a hypothetical call had she been able to load 11 and started out of the intended position.

 

Yes, I was there and witnessed the incident in its entirety.

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

24 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Can you show me where this section is referring to staging guns?  It speaks to starting position and location.  

 

The TO initially attempted to get her into the intended starting position so any comments by the other range officials prior to the beep is moot.  

 

Perhaps the shooter didn't understand the intended starting position of "At the Ready" since it wasn't demonstrated during the reading of the stage instructions.  

 

No penalties were applied as she was unable to load the 11th round into her rifle and ultimately started from "At the Ready" on the restart.  That suggests to me she knew what the position entails. 

 

The discussion between the range official and the TO occurred after the stage had been completed as a hypothetical call had she been able to load 11 and started out of the intended position.

 

Yes, I was there and witnessed the incident in its entirety.

I agree, you can most definitely be given a P for the position of your body.  For example, if the stage description calls for starting with arms crossed and you start with arms at your sides you should receive a P.  I had that happen to me at Georgia State two years ago.  I forgot to cross my arms, the TO didn't notice.  At the end of the stage we had a conversation and then went to the RO Instructor who was adjudicating those things and he confirmed it was a P.  My bad, I took the P and moved on.

 

In this case I'm not sure what you mean by intended starting position.  If there was an intended position that wasn't explained in the stage instructions then the fault lies with whoever wrote the instructions, not the shooter.  Once the match has started and people have started shooting the stage it's too late for the writer to come in and say, 'well I meant this.'   My response would be, 'then you should have said so.'

 

At the Ready is not defined in the SHB and it sounds like it wasn't defined in the instruction either., In that case a shooter should be given wide latitude with respect to what they consider to be "At the Ready."

 

If there was a required reload that could be done any time after the beep, then I might choose to start 'At the Ready' to reload, which is what it sounds like she did.  

 

No call, next shooter.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 2,947]

Two people that I don't want to posse with...

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 312]

5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Two people that I don't want to posse with...

That doesn't answer my question.  

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973 2,947]

1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

That doesn't answer my question.  

 

 

Don't care.

 

If I start a shooter with their arms down when they should have been crossed, give me the damn P for being a crappy TO.

 

Phantom

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 312]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Don't care.

 

Phantom

Typical

[Bushy Blonco 25]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

One TO apologized profusely.  The other asked why I did that. 

Hi Allie Mo, while I like the first better than the second,  when we hold the timer we all should strive to do our job of "safely assisting" to avoid having to apologize! Thanks for sharing your experiences, I don't get to as many matches as I would like, but the helpful dialog on the Wire is a great way to stay sharp and encourage each other to do well.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973 2,947]

1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Typical

Not really. Usually I'll argue my point/position.

 

So your response is not supported by the facts.

 

Should I respond: typical??

 

Oy...

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 312]

27 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Not really. Usually I'll argue my point/position.

 

So your response is not supported by the facts.

 

Should I respond: typical??

 

Oy...

My response "Typical" is to your statement "Don't Care".  It is typical for you to give this answer when a debate doesn't agree with your position.  

 

This may surprise you Phantom but I have been around you and have personally seen you in action since the early 2000's when you were at the State Matches at 5 Dogs Creek with China Camp and at Norco annuals.  We have had a few spirited debates on the Wire as well.  I have a solid basis for my opinion whether you agree or not.  You are among the first to jump someone when they cite a rule that either doesn't exist or is misinterpreted but you "Don't Care" when it applies to you.

 

My question was for you to support your statement that basically the cited section applies to staged guns.  There is no mention anywhere on the page about staging guns.  It speaks to starting position and location.  It certainly implies the correct staging of guns and ammunition but is not solely for that definition.

 

Come out west sometime and I'll buy you a round of your favorite libation and we can debate in person.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 2,947]

1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

My response "Typical" is to your statement "Don't Care".  It is typical for you to give this answer when a debate doesn't agree with your position.  

 

This may surprise you Phantom but I have been around you and have personally seen you in action since the early 2000's when you were at the State Matches at 5 Dogs Creek with China Camp and at Norco annuals.  We have had a few spirited debates on the Wire as well.  I have a solid basis for my opinion whether you agree or not.  You are among the first to jump someone when they cite a rule that either doesn't exist or is misinterpreted but you "Don't Care" when it applies to you.

 

My question was for you to support your statement that basically the cited section applies to staged guns.  There is no mention anywhere on the page about staging guns.  It speaks to starting position and location.  It certainly implies the correct staging of guns and ammunition but is not solely for that definition.

 

Come out west sometime and I'll buy you a round of your favorite libation and we can debate in person.

I'll stand by my position that giving a P to someone that is standing incorrectly (ie: arms to their side rather than at Texas Surrender, or Crossed...), Should simply be corrected or not started.

 

If I as a TO start them and folks want give that shooter a P, give it to me... The dumbass TO!!

 

Besides, the starting "Position" could very easily be interrupted as physical location and have nothing to do with posture, etc.

 

And knock the "typical" crap off. If someone chooses to not engage further in a discussion, let them!

 

Phantom

 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 312]

Still didn't answer the question so I will take the high road and let it go.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 2,947]

1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Still didn't answer the question so I will take the high road and let it go.

I did. Sorry you missed it.

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

There is no provision in the SHB to award a P to a TO, nor does giving the TO a P address the issue of the shooter potentially having an advantage from starting in a faulted position.  Next we'll be told that the SDQ for leaving the LT with a cocked rifle should go to the LTO instead of the shooter........

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783 1,093]

I believe Phantom was making a point about a TO not being on top of things. I seriously doubt he was being literal about awarding a "P" to the TO.

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

I'm stating the rules, one of which is that body position at the start of a stage can in fact cause a shooter to receive a P.  Should the TO have caught it, sure, but ultimately it's the shooter's responsibility.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 3,265]

7 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Because a good thoughtful TO will feel bad...

I'll PM you who the "good thoughtful TO" was. You know him well.

5 hours ago, Bushy Blonco said:

Hi Allie Mo, while I like the first better than the second,  when we hold the timer we all should strive to do our job of "safely assisting" to avoid having to apologize! Thanks for sharing your experiences, I don't get to as many matches as I would like, but the helpful dialog on the Wire is a great way to stay sharp and encourage each other to do well.  

There has been some discussion about holding bad TOs responsible. Many felt it would discourage folks from being TOs. In the case where the shooter got a SDQ because the TO knocked the gun out of his hand, someone should have gone to the MD and had the shooter given a reshoot or removed the SDQ, depending on when it happened and if the score was available.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 3,265]

Sheesh Phantom, empty your mailbox. I'll send it on FB.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 2,947]

28 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Sheesh Phantom, empty your mailbox. I'll send it on FB.

 

Sorry...

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973 2,947]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

There is no provision in the SHB to award a P to a TO, nor does giving the TO a P address the issue of the shooter potentially having an advantage from starting in a faulted position.  Next we'll be told that the SDQ for leaving the LT with a cocked rifle should go to the LTO instead of the shooter........

Oh fer gawds sake...I said ME...AWARD ME!!!!

 

Now reference Abilene Slim's post.

 

oy...

[Bushy Blonco 25]

 

2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

There has been some discussion about holding bad TOs responsible.

The way I was taught, "safely assisting the shooter through the course of fire" includes assessing the shooter's readiness to shoot the stage: assessing the shooter's gear (they have all their guns, hammers down, SG shells, loops off pistol hammers, etc.), assessing the shooter's composure (are they ready and understand the stage), seeing that all guns are staged correctly, and that the shooter is in the correct location and starting position. Yes, it is ultimately the shooters responsibility, but a good TO can do all that checking without saying a word if all is well. I enjoy shooting under a TO that I know is looking me over and looking over my shoulder but is only seen or heard if I need it.

When running the clock, it's a good day if I can save someone a P or worse!

That was the motive that started this thread, being educated and prepared to do the best we can for the shooters under our charge when we're running the clock.

If I am fading or not doing a good job, I will ask for relief. If my friends and I see a TO making mistakes or losing focus, we offer to relieve them pronto; most folks I've met take the responsibility seriously.

Everyone taking personal responsibility is what makes CAS so refreshing, we own up to our mistakes whether as shooter or TO, right?

Edited March 27 by Bushy Blonco

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

5 minutes ago, Bushy Blonco said:

 

The way I was taught, "safely assisting the shooter through the course of fire" includes assessing the shooter's readiness to shoot the stage: assessing the shooter's gear (they have all their guns, hammers down, SG shells, loops off pistol hammers, etc.), assessing the shooter's composure (are they ready and understand the stage), seeing that all guns are staged correctly, and that the shooter is in the correct location and starting position. Yes, it is ultimately the shooters responsibility, but a good TO can do all that checking without saying a word if all is well. I enjoy shooting under a TO that I know is looking me over and looking over my shoulder but is only seen or heard if I need it.

When running the clock, it's a good day if I can save someone a P or worse!

That was the motive that started this thread, being educated and prepared to do the best we can for the shooters under our charge when we're running the clock.

If I am fading or not doing a good job, I will ask for relief. If my friends and I see a TO making mistakes or losing focus, we offer to relieve them pronto; most folks I've met take the responsibility seriously.

Everyone taking personal responsibility is what make CAS so refreshing, we own up to our mistakes whether as shooter or TO, right?

Some of us do, others just say they were kidding.

Edited March 27 by Captain Bill Burt

[Creeker, SASS #43022 1,375]

Easy solution on this one.

TO's award P's - No one else.

If "I" (as the TO) start the shooter in a faulted position...

"I" (as the TO) have the following options...

Disregard the penalty.

Offer a reshoot.

Award a "P".

 

Depending on the severity of the infraction; I may decide the first course of action is best and the mistake did not materially affect the competition.

 

If I determine the infraction was advantageous enough; I will offer a reshoot for TO error/ interference (my failure as a TO will have materially affected their match).

 

If shooter declines to accept the offered reshoot - then I will explain that while the TO (myself) does carry some fault ; ultimately the responsibility falls upon the shooter and I will have to exercise my option as TO to award the "P".

 

At a larger or championship level shoot - I would additionally seek out the match director and advise them of my input.

Then I would accept and enact their wishes.

 

An error that is not entirely of the shooters causing; should always be addressed in such a manner as to have the least amount of impact on the shooters score and overall placement.

 

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

47 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Easy solution on this one.

TO's award P's - No one else.

If "I" (as the TO) start the shooter in a faulted position...

"I" (as the TO) have the following options...

Disregard the penalty.

Offer a reshoot.

Award a "P".

 

Depending on the severity of the infraction; I may decide the first course of action is best and the mistake did not materially affect the competition.

 

If I determine the infraction was advantageous enough; I will offer a reshoot for TO error/ interference (my failure as a TO will have materially affected their match).

 

If shooter declines to accept the offered reshoot - then I will explain that while the TO (myself) does carry some fault ; ultimately the responsibility falls upon the shooter and I will have to exercise my option as TO to award the "P".

 

At a larger or championship level shoot - I would additionally seek out the match director and advise them of my input.

Then I would accept and enact their wishes.

 

An error that is not entirely of the shooters causing; should always be addressed in such a manner as to have the least amount of impact on the shooters score and overall placement.

 

It’s rare for me to disagree with you but on this I do. As TO it’s your responsibility to decide whether a P occurred, NOT whether  you want to enforce it.

 

Although you can probably get away with the options you mentioned, under the rules you do not have the option of offering a reshoot nor do you have the option to disregard. If the shooter started in a faulted position they earned a P. If you don’t assess it you aren’t following the rules.

 

TO’s do not have the option to disregard penalties, nor do they have the option to arbitrarily offer a reshoot.

Edited March 27 by Captain Bill Burt

[Creeker, SASS #43022 1,375]

13 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

As TO it’s your responsibility to decide whether a P occurred, NOT whether  you want to enforce it.

To decide whether a P occurred AND WHY a P occurred.

The WHY makes all the difference.

 

If the error is not entirely on the shooter - then yes, as the TO - I do have the option to offer a reshoot.

 

Take a slightly different look at it.

If I read the stage instructions to the posse wrong - and by following those instructions a shooter makes a procedural error...

Would you assign a P to the shooter?

Or offer a reshoot - if the error materially affected the stage time?

Or make a judgement call that is in the best interest of the game?

 

We are not mindless robots that simply hold a timer and stand back.

As TO; we are sometimes (unwitting and unwilling) participants in the shooters performance.

When our errors/ mistakes or omissions materially affect a match or a shooters performance - we should be looking for ways to correct our impact - not looking for rules to justify assigning penalty.

 

After safety - the most important guidance is "Don't be a hardass"

 

If we are wrong - we should strive to fix it. 

Not shrug our shoulders and move on.

 

If I'm out of line for my desire to not have MY mistakes harm another's shooters match...

I will happily never touch a timer ever again.

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

SHB 19

Coaching and constraining the shooter from unsafe acts are expected when appropriate, minimizing procedural and safety penalties whenever possible. Proper coaching or no coaching at all is NOT considered RO interference and will never be grounds for a reshoot.

 

SHB 24

ASSESSING PENALTIES AND PROTESTS
During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed. The immediate authority on the stage to that end is the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO), assisted by the input of the spotters. The scope of assessing penalties includes safety violations, procedural errors, appropriate completion of stage activities, illegal firearms and equipment, appropriate ammunition, appropriate dress, and other category specific requirements such as the adequate production of smoke in the blackpowder categories. The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses). Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters.

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

21 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

To decide whether a P occurred AND WHY a P occurred.

The WHY makes all the difference.

 

If the error is not entirely on the shooter - then yes, as the TO - I do have the option to offer a reshoot.

 

Take a slightly different look at it.

If I read the stage instructions to the posse wrong - and by following those instructions a shooter makes a procedural error...

Would you assign a P to the shooter?

Or offer a reshoot - if the error materially affected the stage time?

Or make a judgement call that is in the best interest of the game?

 

We are not mindless robots that simply hold a timer and stand back.

As TO; we are sometimes (unwitting and unwilling) participants in the shooters performance.

When our errors/ mistakes or omissions materially affect a match or a shooters performance - we should be looking for ways to correct our impact - not looking for rules to justify assigning penalty.

 

After safety - the most important guidance is "Don't be a hardass"

 

If we are wrong - we should strive to fix it. 

Not shrug our shoulders and move on.

 

If I'm out of line for my desire to not have MY mistakes harm another's shooters match...

I will happily never touch a timer ever again.

 

 

Your heart is in the right place, but failure to tell the shooter they are in a faulted position is ‘no coaching’ and starting in the wrong position is a failure on the shooters part, just as shooting targets in the wrong order or leaving the LT with a cocked gun is  the shooters fault.

 

Did the shooter hear the correct stage instructions? Did they tell him how and where to start? Did he follow them? Are the answers yes, yes, and no? If so the TO and the shooter BOTH failed. The shooter gets the P, the TO needs to hand the timer off, and feel bad.

 

Please cite the rule that says you, the TO, should determine why the P occurred and why that has an impact on the call.

Edited March 27 by Captain Bill Burt

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783 1,093]

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 2,719]

To reiterate an earlier post:

Quote

While the TO should do his/her best to not start a competitor in a faulted position or location, the ultimate responsibility of starting position lies with the shooter. A shooter who starts in a faulted position will be assessed a Procedural penalty.   

RO1 p.47 (this is "starred" as a test item)

 

Quote

Failure to stage firearms or ammunition at the designated position(s) or location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under the clock. 

RO2 p.7

 

 

Edited March 27 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add text

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

Thank you PWB.

 

Creeker I meant no disrespect, I just differed with your conclusion.

Edited March 27 by Captain Bill Burt

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 2,719]

Additional commentary:

Any T/O who would intentionally start a shooter, KNOWING that a "faulted" situation exists in order to assess a "P" deserves a MDQ for "unsportsmanlike conduct".

REF: SHB p.23

[Captain Bill Burt 1,013]

Just now, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Additional commentary:

Any T/O who would intentionally start a shooter, KNOWING that a "faulted" situation exists in order to assess a "P" deserves a MDQ for "unsportsmanlike conduct".

REF: SHB p.23

I wholeheartedly agree with that!

[Creeker, SASS #43022 1,375]

44 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Thank you PWB.

 

Creeker I meant no disrespect, I just differed with your conclusion.

No disrespect taken.

And certainly no disrespect was intended in your direction either.

 

Civil and articulate disagreements are always educational.

 

They remind me that I'm often wrong. .

And I need to strive to do better.

 

 

 

 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 391]

Wow, a civil discussion with no personal attacks... how refreshing.

Thanks for your inputs.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 391]

Just the response I expected. Thank you