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Bushy Blonco

WTC: Starting Position?

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Are there conventions for Starting Positions other than those listed in the SHB (Cowboy Port Arms and Default)?

Specifically:  "(gun) at the ready", or "(gun) in hand"?

 

I was TO, the stage instructions said "Rifle at the ready" the shooter had her rifle in both hands, but not on her shoulder. I told her she could be on target, but she declined; should I have said she MUST be on target with the butt on her shoulder? Would starting as she wanted be a procedural? 

Thanks.

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she was just fine,, she was ready to shoulder it,,, and no there aren't any conventions covering it,    some folks don't like starting that way,.. 

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Depends on the definition of the position.  I've always given the shooter the widest latitude on starting position as long as it meets basic definition. 

 

No call.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee 

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5 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

she was just fine,, she was ready to shoulder it,,, and no there aren't any conventions covering it,    some folks don't like starting that way,.. 

 

with 4 shoulder surgeries (2 each side) I'm one that doesn't want to have to hold up the rifle unless I'm firing.  

 

At TRR as long as long guns are in hands we are fine with it 

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+1 to Fingers. 

 

Unless stage instructions specify it must be shouldered (they didn't) or "at the ready" is defined or demonstrated during stage reading, it's no call.

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Yep.. This scenario?? No call..

That shooter took a disadvantage in our minds.. :huh:

but an advantage in her mind... :D

No call..

 

Rance ;)

Just my thinkin'

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16 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

That shooter took a disadvantage in our minds.. :huh:

Thanks Rance, the scenario called for loading an extra rifle round on the clock; most folks chose to do it after they fired the first 10, but this gal was trying to load it right at the start, so she saw it as an advantage...

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Was rifle in both hands?  OK, it meets the stage description for "at the ready". 

NO CALL

 

A position of "gun in hands" would require both hands on long gun.

 

"Gun in hand" (as asked about in OP) would be a poor starting position requirement that could invoke arguments.. With a long gun start, it would commonly be interpreted as gun could be held with one or even two hands.  Until you get a literalist who says "only allows one hand on gun"  So, don't use that as a starting position for a long gun.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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My mentor would have yanked the timer out of my hands and told me to learn the basics again before he hands the timer to me again.

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8 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Why even consider calling a P for a start like that?  :blink:

 

Thanks GJ. 

I thought it was fine, and no-called it,  but someone questioned me later. We often have folks visit from other clubs, I want to be consistent in our stage instructions and calls so everyone can have a great time. I'd rather nit-pick my own calls to head off problems than have someone else be bothered with it in the future!!!

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Your call was good Bushy! I heard the input from others at the match about a "P" and glad you stood your ground!

 

RR

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21 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said:

Your call was good Bushy! I heard the input from others at the match about a "P" and glad you stood your ground!

 

RR

Honestly, I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but why in the hell would anyone argue to give this person a "P"???

 

I truly don't get it...sorry.

 

Phantom

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Phantom... You're not being a jerk at all. And we agree on the question of why anyone would argue to give the shooter a P for this call..

 

...RR

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"Rifle at the ready " means different things to people.  It is not defined.  I leave it at whatever position is comfortable to the shooter (and it meets stage description).  For me, aimed downrange.  For others it has been just held in hands.

 

BS

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

why in the hell would anyone argue to give this person a "P"???

Thanks for the reply Phantom,

I suppose if the TO insisted the instructions were to shoulder the rifle and the shooter refused in order to gain the advantage of a faster reload the only possible call would be "Spirit of the game" and not a "P" since it was intentional and Procedurals are for unintentional mistakes?

Or am I missing your point?

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7 minutes ago, Bushy Blonco said:

Thanks for the reply Phantom,

I suppose if the TO insisted the instructions were to shoulder the rifle and the shooter refused in order to gain the advantage of a faster reload the only possible call would be "Spirit of the game" and not a "P" since it was intentional and Procedurals are for unintentional mistakes?

Or am I missing your point?

Ya just don't start the shooter. Having the TO insist on a starting position is kinda weird. It's written down in the stage instructions.

 

That said, I've never had a person argue a starting position. If there was a question, we would pause and clarify.

 

But it's not a "P"...

 

Phantom

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What if the shooter was shooting outlaw? At the ready would be at the hip yeah? 

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Giving a P for something that's not a direct violation of the stage instructions and NOT a competitive advantage is just silly.

And if it is laid out the instructions and they are not starting that way, then like Phantom said, just don't start em until they comply.

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The main concern was the definitions of "at the ready" and "in hand". I couldn't find them in the SHB, and wanted to know if there was a convention I was unaware of.  As BS said, the terms mean different things to different people, so clarifying is important. 

Thanks to all for clearing that up. 

 

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Stating that shooters may start with "gun" in-hand, gives each individual shooter latitude as to how they choose to do that. If the stage writer has a specific starting position in mind, write it (specifically) into the stage instructions. If you leave it up to the shooters, you will see MANY variations in start positions.

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57 minutes ago, Bushy Blonco said:

The main concern was the definitions of "at the ready" and "in hand". I couldn't find them in the SHB, and wanted to know if there was a convention I was unaware of.  As BS said, the terms mean different things to different people, so clarifying is important. 

Thanks to all for clearing that up. 

 

 

This is why stage writers must be clear, concise, correct, and complete in their grammar and punctuation when writing instructions so there is no room for misinterpretation or "is it ok to do it this way?" questions.

JC

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And sometimes I will intentionally leave the instructions loose to give shooters options. They like options. ;)

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When I write "gun in hand" or "at the ready" I always tell the shooters that the gun may be on target should they so choose but it's not required. Up to the shooter. Like a whole bunch of other folks said, No Call!

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The whole idea of "at the ready" or "in hand" (or the bulk of it at least), was to eliminate the widely misinterpreted starting position of Cowboy Port Arms ... Let's try not to morph back into that old dilemma.

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HATE Cowboy Port Arms just for that reason. The position itself is fine, but I'm not crazy about the "jump" some like to get.

Sometimes I will write loose instructions so I can see just how "gamey" some will get on their start. It's funny to me.

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1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

HATE Cowboy Port Arms just for that reason. The position itself is fine, but I'm not crazy about the "jump" some like to get.

Sometimes I will write loose instructions so I can see just how "gamey" some will get on their start. It's funny to me.

I haven't written or seen Cowboy Port Arms used in a long time ... Thank God!

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56 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I haven't written or seen Cowboy Port Arms used in a long time ... Thank God!

 

I told the RO1 students in yesterday's class the same thing (after demo'ing both the intended position and the "technically legal" version).

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Very helpful comments! Being fairly new to the game, it is a huge help to have you all fill-in-the-blanks regarding interpretation of the SHB and RO courses. As Snakebite said "No rule book can cover every possible 'what-if' situation... it takes common sense." The wealth of information shared on the Wire really helps clarify the practicality of how the rules are applied. Your willingness to share and help develop common sense and personal responsibility in our sport is what sets it apart and makes it such a good time. Thank you for the discussion and education.

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Here I've been thinking that gun in hands could not be screwed up.........in the words of Phantom....OY. Good call Bushy. One thing I've learned is that someone is always watching and itching to make a call (or more accurately go to the match officials and make them make the call). 

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When I was writing the match conventions for Eldorado; we clarified "in hands" as:

TWO hands in contact with the firearm - 

Firearm held in any safe manner.

Hands DO NOT have in be in traditional or expected positioning on the firearm.

Hands may not be in contact with ammunition.

 

This allowed for ANY safe positioning or posture. 

From every variation of Port arms to shouldered and aimed. 

With zero debate.

 

And additionally allowed the shooter to position their hands in any manner that they felt advantaged them (for example, shotgun resting on back of hand with palm facing shotgun shells instead of gripping the firearm).

 

I have always been a huge proponent of allowing every shooter to determine the starting position (body posture, hand position, etc.) that best serves their individual performance. 

As long as every shooter has access to the same options; there is no fairer starting position than that.

 

 

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The plot thickens!!

Regarding the penalty question,

A diligent friend pointed out this quote from the ROI Student Handbook, page 47:

 

  •   While the TO should do his/her best to not start a competitor in a faulted position or location, the ultimate responsibility of starting position lies with the shooter. A shooter who starts in a faulted position will be assessed a Procedural penalty. 

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9 hours ago, Bushy Blonco said:

The plot thickens!!

Regarding the penalty question,

A diligent friend pointed out this quote from the ROI Student Handbook, page 47:

 

  •   While the TO should do his/her best to not start a competitor in a faulted position or location, the ultimate responsibility of starting position lies with the shooter. A shooter who starts in a faulted position will be assessed a Procedural penalty. 

Referring to staging guns. I never done nor seen a shooter given a P for the "Starting Position" of their body...if you will...

 

The most common error is the staging of guns...particularly if the revolvers are to be staged as that isn't the norm. 

 

If after running a stage, one of the stage officials tells the TO that he/she started them in the wrong location or standing position, and that a P needs to be assessed, I'd probably ask why they didn't say something before the beep...geeze...stage officials are supposed to help the shooters. Ya just don't stand there are do nothing...and then just smile at the shooter as say "It's your responsibility, not mine".

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Referring to staging guns. I never done nor seen a shooter given a P for the "Starting Position" of their body...if you will...

 

The most common error is the staging of guns...particularly if the revolvers are to be staged as that isn't the norm. 

 

If after running a stage, one of the stage officials tells the TO that he/she started them in the wrong location or standing position, and that a P needs to be assessed, I'd probably ask why they didn't say something before the beep...geeze...stage officials are supposed to help the shooters. Ya just don't stand there are do nothing...and then just smile at the shooter as say "It's your responsibility, not mine".

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

I've started in a faulted position twice, mea culpa all the way. I staged my long guns in the wrong spot and shot them from the wrong spot.

 

One TO apologized profusely. :wub: The other asked why I did that. :(

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