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Cimarron Eliminator Overtravel


Juan Solo

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I just received an eliminator8 and it seems to have a good bit of overtravel. When I cock the hammer it stops at the cock before a slight hitch and then it keeps going all the way back. If I let go it catches on the sear at the right spot.

 

Anyone have any ideas on what to check? The hammer overtravel stop is there, but it stops it at what would normally be the full cock, not the short stroke. I'm wondering if it's the hand thats been over fitted and is slipping?

 

Also, would the short stroke use a stock hand, or would it be a custom part? If it's something I can order from vti I wouldnt mind trying to fit it as I've fit nmv ones before.

 

 

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So update, it does appear that the hand is slipping. It also seems they may have filed a few thousands of an inch too much off the 2nd step. Lastly, whoever made the hammer stop wasn't paying attention as it was pretty mis-shapen.

 

I went ahead and reprofiled and adjusted the hammer stop so that the gun stops just after the full cock notch. If I pull extremely slowly and stop right at full cock the bolt is not quite fully engaged about 1/3 of the time. It's something I can live with since cocking with any kind of smooth motion will still fully lock up. 

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1 hour ago, El Cubano said:

So update, it does appear that the hand is slipping. It also seems they may have filed a few thousands of an inch too much off the 2nd step. Lastly, whoever made the hammer stop wasn't paying attention as it was pretty mis-shapen.

 

I went ahead and reprofiled and adjusted the hammer stop so that the gun stops just after the full cock notch. If I pull extremely slowly and stop right at full cock the bolt is not quite fully engaged about 1/3 of the time. It's something I can live with since cocking with any kind of smooth motion will still fully lock up

 

20180817_083003.jpg.4065930c70966cf39181363916d6a1c6.jpg

 

Is this the stop you reprofiled?  The one on mine is purely ornamental.  How did you reprofile it to make it actually functional? 

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Is this the same situation you're seeing on your Pietta? 

 

 

I've not done it but I've see posted a method of stretching the hand by putting it on an anvil like surface and laying a drill bit shank across it and striking the drill bit shank with a hammer - thus stretching the hand.  I think Driftwood Johnson may have posted this method?

 

1922954899_ColtSAAhandadjustmentMar2019(1).jpg.81868e0aa4c27c31205a4c1c6ed25729.jpg

 

I ripped this picture off the AGI video.  He's just illustrating the method. He said he may wack it in several places to achieve the stretch needed. 

 

I got 4 of our Uberti Cattleman out and did the same check and the cylinder rotated to the bolt drop into the notch exactly when the trigger dropped under the full cock notch or just very shortly before.  

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Ha, it's actually your videos and an old post you made on the piettas that made me dig in to this!

 

For the hammer stop, it's actually a screw that's not even lock tighted in, it's just screwed all the way in. On my first gun they obviously screwed it all the way in, then profiled it to a ramp just tall enough to allow a tiny bit of overtravel.

 

On my 2nd gun(the broken one) they profiled it before they ever screwed it in so it was much too short and tilted all kadywampas. I went ahead and screwed it out 1 turn to get the right approximate height, then using a file I gave it that even ramp shape so that the spring sits down on to it evenly as it reaches full cock with just a small but of overtravel. Then I lock tighted it in to keep it in the right spot.

 

As for the hand, compared to mine that's extremely. As I reach full cock the bolt is probably literally 3/4 of a millimeter from dropping in to the cylinder catch. It's literally just enough to notice and I'm thinking a stronger bolt spring might put the tension on it to finish following the ramp in to the slot.

 

I'll take a picture of the new stop when I get a chance this evening.

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I though about replacing the stop screw and starting over.  Also building it up with JB Weld or real weld. I also turned it out a half turn but it was then too tall.  I had other problems to deal with so I did nothing. 

 

So... you're saying my gun is falling shorter in cylinder rotation than yours?  Of course,  if you go ahead and cock it without taking the effort to stop exactly when the trigger falls in full cock notch and apply some drag,  it goes ahead and completes the rotation.

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32177854_PiettaEleminatorAug2018.jpg.ede1acd59e9689e01bafbb77f0a713c6.jpg

 

I bought mine and supposedly previously owned but unfired in the box.  But the more I got into it, it showed signs of being in a butcher shop.  I've corrected a lot of problems.  It's apart right now because I'm fixing to turn the barrel to correct the windage. 

 

I did polish the base pin and bushing. That may account for it going on and locking when it's falling so short. 

 

The drag you're feeling before the full cock is the leg of the bolt sliding over the cam on the hammer. It may smooth out on its own or maybe could use some light honing. 

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Yeah, mine were new old stock (2017 mfg) that were in sealed boxes. The first gun I got was actually pretty good, but the hand looked like it was fit using a chain saw as it was extremely eaten up and full or burs everywhere. They also ”fixed” cylinder gap/headspace by grinding the front of the bushing when the issue was that it wasn't seated all the way since it was pressed in so tight. Lastly it also shoots to the right as the barrel is ever so slightly twisted.

 

The 2nd gun was much better as far as burs and barrel and general polishing. The only issue it had was the overtravel and the timing.

 

I will say there is no way the us action jobs were done by the same smith. These are only 3 numbers apart and are substantially different in terms of the actual polishing.

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They brought these out with great fanfare I'm thinking 2015.  Some people love them and had not a problem.  Some others had nothing but problems and after some returns for repair, gave up and asked them for refund.  

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Thanks for sharing the conversation for all to see. I’m sure learning a lot. 

 

 

 

 

It would be nice to get some input from experts at smithing SAA.  

 

Meanwhile,  back at ranch, while I had the gun apart,  I did the wack the drill bit over the hand trick.  

 

2005471621_PiettahandstretchMar2018.jpg.fa56d66689ba56b7a360db30ea4622c4.jpg

 

It's shocking to find out how much just a bump with a light hammer will dent the metal.   The hand measured 1.147 before.  1.158 after.  I figured I'd better test before wackiin' it any more. 

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Huh, well looks like I'll be smacking mine with a hammer and small drill bit as well this afternoon. If I can get similar stretch I should be good to go on the timing.

 

BTW do they use a stock hand on these or is it a specialty one? I've got no non short stroked SAA to compare to.

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1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

It would be nice to get some input from experts at smithing SAA.  

 

Meanwhile,  back at ranch, while I had the gun apart,  I did the did the wack the drill bit over the hand trick.  

 

2005471621_PiettahandstretchMar2018.jpg.fa56d66689ba56b7a360db30ea4622c4.jpg

 

It's shocking to find out how much just a bump with a light hammer will dent the metal.   The hand measured 1.147 before.  1.158 after.  I figured I'd better test before wackiin' it any more. 

 

Thanks for the pic and results. I have an 1858 whose hand is a hair short. Locks up fine if you cock fast but if you cock it slow it lacks about 1/2 the cap diameter being properly indexed.

 

 This method was suggested but I didn't know how to go about actually doing it.

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

This method was suggested but I didn't know how to go about actually doing it.

 

1922954899_ColtSAAhandadjustmentMar2019(1).jpg.81868e0aa4c27c31205a4c1c6ed25729.jpg

 

This picture is worth a thousand words. Just don't lay it across the frame of the gun!   

 

Use a drill bit about 1/8".  Put hand on hard, smooth steel surface (like a bumper hitch?).  Lay shank of drill bit across about midway. Give it a bump with light hammer about like cracking a walnut. Check results.  Repeat as required. 

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There are potentially three problems described here.  1.)  The second step on the hand is too short.  2.). The Over-Travel stop is incorrect.  3.). The trigger "may" not be correct.  Since I don't have it apart, the trigger issue is up in the air.

 

If the Second Step is too short and the cylinder does not Carry-Up into battery you have a problem, or not.  If you are cycling the action crisply as in shooting and the cylinder rotates into battery and locks, it is a minor problem you can ignore.  Altering the Trigger/Bolt Spring will NOT assist the cylinder rotation into battery.  Should you elect to extend the hand, remember you are also extending ALL of the hand and it may become too long overall and not allow the cylinder to unlock and begin to rotate.

 

When everything is correct, the over-travel stop effectively stops further hammer movement.  This prevents excess hand wear/stress and excess bolt stress.  The over-travel stop should completely stop the hammer as the bolt stops the cylinder, and the trigger arrives at the full cock ledge.

 

Should you choose to make changes, FIRST.  notice, FIRST invest in a new hand/spring assembly, a new bolt, and perhaps a new trigger.  Learning to correctly set up the SA Action can be a bit of an expensive learning curve.  Fun.  But expensive.  

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4 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

There are potentially three problems described here.  1.)  The second step on the hand is too short.  2.). The Over-Travel stop is incorrect.  3.). The trigger "may" not be correct.  Since I don't have it apart, the trigger issue is up in the air.

 

If the Second Step is too short and the cylinder does not Carry-Up into battery you have a problem, or not.  If you are cycling the action crisply as in shooting and the cylinder rotates into battery and locks, it is a minor problem you can ignore.  Altering the Trigger/Bolt Spring will NOT assist the cylinder rotation into battery.  Should you elect to extend the hand, remember you are also extending ALL of the hand and it may become too long overall and not allow the cylinder to unlock and begin to rotate.

 

When everything is correct, the over-travel stop effectively stops further hammer movement.  This prevents excess hand wear/stress and excess bolt stress.  The over-travel stop should completely stop the hammer as the bolt stops the cylinder, and the trigger arrives at the full cock ledge.

 

Should you choose to make changes, FIRST.  notice, FIRST invest in a new hand/spring assembly, a new bolt, and perhaps a new trigger.  Learning to correctly set up the SA Action can be a bit of an expensive learning curve.  Fun.  But expensive.  

 

Thanks for your input.  This is one area (one of many) that I have no actual experience - just instructions.  

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12 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

There are potentially three problems described here.  1.)  The second step on the hand is too short.  2.). The Over-Travel stop is incorrect.  3.). The trigger "may" not be correct.  Since I don't have it apart, the trigger issue is up in the air.

 

If the Second Step is too short and the cylinder does not Carry-Up into battery you have a problem, or not.  If you are cycling the action crisply as in shooting and the cylinder rotates into battery and locks, it is a minor problem you can ignore.  Altering the Trigger/Bolt Spring will NOT assist the cylinder rotation into battery.  Should you elect to extend the hand, remember you are also extending ALL of the hand and it may become too long overall and not allow the cylinder to unlock and begin to rotate.

 

When everything is correct, the over-travel stop effectively stops further hammer movement.  This prevents excess hand wear/stress and excess bolt stress.  The over-travel stop should completely stop the hammer as the bolt stops the cylinder, and the trigger arrives at the full cock ledge.

 

Should you choose to make changes, FIRST.  notice, FIRST invest in a new hand/spring assembly, a new bolt, and perhaps a new trigger.  Learning to correctly set up the SA Action can be a bit of an expensive learning curve.  Fun.  But expensive.  

 

I appreciate the input. I didn't think about the trigger. I'll have to take both guns apart and examine the triggers now to see if they over shortened one. They definitely ground on it so I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the issue.

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2005471621_PiettahandstretchMar2018.jpg.fa56d66689ba56b7a360db30ea4622c4.jpg

 

I took a small diamond file and knocked the small extruder bumps off the back and front of the hand and reassembled the gun.  Just that much made a big difference.   The cylinder rotated to about half a bolt width from dropping into the stop notch.  This took up some 3/4 of the slack. 

 

The top of the hand was not too tall. I'm going to leave well enough alone.  Maybe watch it and see if any more adjustments are needed when I take the gun apart again.

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On an unrelated note, do you think if I put the cocking notches in water I'd be able to fire blue the rest of the hammer? I fire blued the screws and the trigger, seems like I should be able to do the same for the hammer if I keep the heat from traveling in to the notches

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8 minutes ago, El Cubano said:

On an unrelated note, do you think if I put the cocking notches in water I'd be able to fire blue the rest of the hammer? I fire blued the screws and the trigger, seems like I should be able to do the same for the hammer if I keep the heat from traveling in to the notches

 

If you're asking me...  I don't know.   

 

They make some kind of putty that keeps heat from migrating.  But I have no experience with any of this.  

 

But if someone knows,  please tell.

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Well, Saturday morning was a perfectly sucky day weather wise.  So I continued on with the task of correcting the short second hand on my Pietta Eleminator.   It took more than several iterations to get it right. Once I got the hand stretched enough for the second hand to rotate the cylinder up correctly,  the top of the hand was too long - starting the cylinder rotation before the bolt had time to drop - thus the bolt nipped the top of the notch on the cylinder.   The tedious part in this exercise is that the gun had to be all but completely disassembled and reassembled every time to test.  I think I've got it about right now.

 

 

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Saw the video on it last night. Nice work on this, i probably could afford to give it another couple of whacks on mine, but its so close after 4 applications that I called it good even if it isnt quite perfect. I'm actually waiting on a replacement hand which seem to be on back order at Vti. Once the hand comes in i'll give this another 2-4 whacks and see if i can stretch it the last bit i need with out having to fit a whole new hand.

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41 minutes ago, El Cubano said:

I'm actually waiting on a replacement hand which seem to be on back order at Vti.

 

Did you order a hand for a "standard" stroke Pietta or one for a "short" stroke?  Something has to be different about the parts in the short stroke guns.

 

I don't have a standard Pietta to compare to the short stoke.

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