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Tennessee williams

WTC Question regarding staged and restaged pistols

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Posted (edited)

Ok. Here goes... 

This is a duelist shooter.

Pistols are staged on a table for the pistol portion of the stage. At the beep, shooter grips one pistol in each hand firing one while the other only remains in contact with the table via the end of the barrel. He then shoots the other pistol and moves on. It is my understanding from some on here that is a no call. That being said, here is the wtc/question:

 

Duelist shooter...scenario is rifle shotgun pistol. Pistols holstered.

Shooter completes rifle, then shotgun. He gets to pistol portion and draws and fires 4 rounds from the first revolver leaving hammer down on a spent case with one live round left in the cylinder. He rests the end of the barrel on the table in front of him and draws and fires 5 rounds from the 2nd pistol. He realizes he has one left to shoot and does so with the first revolver completing the correct sequence. 

WTC

Edited by Tennessee williams

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No call.

It has been determined and ruled (when staged on table) that the pistol remaining or being in contact with the table does not constitute in hand.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

No call.

It has been determined and ruled (when staged on table) that the pistol remaining or being in contact with the table does not constitute in hand.

That is my hope, that BOTH are a no call because I dont see how one can be if they both arent.

Edited by Tennessee williams

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Posted (edited)

No Call for either description.

Well, looks like I was wrong on that call, holstered being different than staged.

Thanks PWB for pointing that out. 

--Dawg

Edited by Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329

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The difference here is, the revolvers were not staged on the table, they came from the holster.  I think a P is in order irregardless of the first touching the table.

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Posted (edited)

The ROC clarification states specifically how to avoid the penalty when the revolvers are drawn from leather:

"...the shooter may holster one of the firearms to avoid the penalty, up until the point when either of the two revolvers is cocked. In other words, unless ONE of the revolvers is cocked, the shooter may simply holster one of the revolvers to avoid the penalty."

It would work the same way if the revolvers started staged on a prop/table...return one back to the prop (or holster) before cocking either one.

 

Consider a shooter who started with holstered revolvers (as in pt.2 of the OP), drew the 1st one and only shot 4 rounds; set it down (instead of reholstering); then drew the second loaded revolver.

As soon as the 2nd revolver is cocked, the penalty applies, as the revolvers were not initially staged before use.

Once the first revolver "cleared the mouth of the holster", it is "in hand" (out of leather) until it has been REholstered.

 

Applicable definition:

Quote

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged.

SHB p.45

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
post ROC clarification
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From PWBs notation,  I would say that it's a "No Call" for the scenario where the revolvers were staged on the table,  but a "P" for having 2 loaded revolvers out of the holsters at one time. 

 

BS

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21 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.45

PWB, I'm lost on this one. I mean, I understand WHAT the rule is saying, just not the logic behind it. Usually it pops right in my head, but not this one for some reason. Here is why. When shooter gets to the pistol portion and pistols are STAGED they pick up first pistol, fire 4 instead of 5 and rest the barrel down on the table where it was originally staged while they fire the 2nd pistol dry then fire the last round from the first pistol, it would technically be a no call. I assume the same call for both would be made for traditional and duelist shooters.

I do know you couldn't use the argument "you dont have to reholster if pistols are last" because you do have to holster them, just not on the clock since there is no other firearm to shoot.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

As soon as the 2nd revolver is cocked, the penalty applies, as the revolvers were not initially staged before use.

Once the first revolver "cleared the mouth of the holster", it is "in hand" (out of leather) until it has been REholstered

 

Quote

Note: The “2 loaded revolvers out” ruling applies to ALL non-Gunfighter/B-Western shooters, not to Duelists exclusively.

SOURCE:

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add quote and link

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Posted (edited)

My bad.

I really should carefully read the whole OP before answering.

The "Staged" and "Restaged" header got me - when the question is actually not about staging, but about failing to holster.

PWB is correct as usual.

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022

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Recommended solution:

Fire all FIVE shots from the first revolver before setting/throwing it on a table/prop.

 

five.jpg

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43 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

 

Consider a shooter who started with holstered revolvers (as in pt.2 of the OP), drew the 1st one and only shot 4 rounds; set it down (instead of reholstering); then drew the second loaded revolver.

As soon as the 2nd revolver is cocked, the penalty applies, as the revolvers were not initially staged before use.

Once the first revolver "cleared the mouth of the holster", it is "in hand" (out of leather) until it has been REholstered.

 

Applicable definition:

SHB p.45

 

 

I didn't catch this the first go around. The correct call for anyone shooting non gunfighter setting a pistol down with one still in it while firing the last pistol has earned a p (and maybe a miss) if they started in holsters.

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56 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Once the first revolver "cleared the mouth of the holster", it is "in hand" (out of leather) until it has been REholstered.

 

Applicable definition:

SHB p.45

 

 

PWB, how long do you think we have until someone uses their definition of a revolver being "in hand" to try to get out of a penalty for setting a cocked revolver down on a table.

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25 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

PWB, how long do you think we have until someone uses their definition of a revolver being "in hand" to try to get out of a penalty for setting a cocked revolver down on a table.

 

They'd lose that argument.

The applicable rule specifically refers to "leaving the shooter's hand", which has been clarified to mean exactly what it says...on a prop or in a holster, the SDQ penalty applies as soon as the shooter lets go of it/relinquishes control.

Quote

- A cocked revolver may never leave a shooters hand, including from one hand to the other.  This does not apply when loading or reloading on the firing line. 

SHB pp. 15, 23, 42.

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Hey PWB,

 

Ya know TN Williams is just messing with ya.

He ain't had his 1/2 gallon of Butter Pecan Ice Cream tonight.  

 

How would you like it if he had your phone number and calls you during your nap time in the afternoon

to brag about his lobster and steak lunch he's eating with a banana split for desert?

Oh yea, he loves banana splits and Butter Pecan Ice Cream.

 

..........Widder

 

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I might have to take a detour for lunch with him if I ever go visit my cousins in Audrain County, MO.

;)

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17 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Hey PWB,

 

Ya know TN Williams is just messing with ya.

He ain't had his 1/2 gallon of Butter Pecan Ice Cream tonight.  

 

How would you like it if he had your phone number and calls you during your nap time in the afternoon

to brag about his lobster and steak lunch he's eating with a banana split for desert?

Oh yea, he loves banana splits and Butter Pecan Ice Cream.

 

..........Widder

 

 

8 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

I might have to take a detour for lunch with him if I ever go visit my cousins in Audrain County, MO.

;)

Widder never lets me have any fun. 

 

I've got to open another office in St. Louis so all you can eat steak and lobster is yours. The ice cream is all mine though...

 

Now if I can just figure out which definition to go by at which time:ph34r:

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7 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

 

Now if I can just figure out which definition to go by at which time:ph34r:

 

WELLLLLLLL........ if I'm the TO.......... :D

 

..........Widder

 

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All jokes aside, it is a pretty good question. Lord knows if by some chance back to back shooters did each thing I'd have some explaining to do, especially since both deal with cocked revolvers. I'd have to tell one that the pistol they grounded is still "in hand" until it's reholstered so they get a P for shooting out of category. I'd have to tell the next one the cocked revolver sdq'd them as soon as it quit touching their hand because it is no longer in hand. There has got to be a better way of explaining this, or we make the definition the same across the board.

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The primary difference between those two scenarios is that one of the revolvers is COCKED (whether loaded or not), which is a major safety concern.

 

REF: "Firearm Conventions" - SHB pp.14-17 

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You know, with the high percentage of TO's not even watching the shooter...these issues almost become moot.

 

:ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

All jokes aside, it is a pretty good question. Lord knows if by some chance back to back shooters did each thing I'd have some explaining to do, especially since both deal with cocked revolvers. I'd have to tell one that the pistol they grounded is still "in hand" until it's reholstered so they get a P for shooting out of category. I'd have to tell the next one the cocked revolver sdq'd them as soon as it quit touching their hand because it is no longer in hand. There has got to be a better way of explaining this, or we make the definition the same across the board.

You've added a new twist to the OP.  The OP was about staging, now you add cocked revolvers.

ANY cocked revolver that is either set down or re-holstered is a SDQ as soon as the shooter releases their hand from the revolver (be it on a prop or holster).

 

BS

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5 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

You've added a new twist to the OP.  The OP was about staging, now you add cocked revolvers.

ANY cocked revolver that is either set down or re-holstered is a SDQ as soon as the shooter releases their hand from the revolver (be it on a prop or holster).

 

BS

Barry, not trying to be a smartarse here but did you read through the whole thread? The topic morphed from the original comparison of how it is ok for a shooter who has left a round in the pistol to hold it in their hand and rest the barrel on the table or even set it on the table while they fire the other one if they were both originally staged. It is NOT ok for someone to do the same thing with revolvers that came from their holster to SET THE GUN DOWN ON THE TABLE not touching it because its shooting out of category. It has been determined that the gun from a holster is still IN HAND until reholstered regardless if its 20 feet away on a table. That has morphed into the topic of another clarified determination of a cocked revolver not touching you is NOT IN HAND. 

So we have 2 different definitions. 

Basically it is this: A revolver that comes from the holster is considered "in hand" no matter where it is until it is reholstered unless it is dropped or cocked. I propose the definition clarifications as is are contradictory and if the rules stay in place, the verbiage should change to agree with each other. Its hard to give one shooter a P for shooting out of category because one pistol is still IN HAND when they set it on the table and another one a sdq because the pistol left their hand when they set it on the table. 

 

Now I'm no ROC or even a TG but I would ask someone that is to either look at doing away with the P by allowing pistols to be considered STAGED as long as they are fired last regardless if they came from holsters originally(most shooters think this is the case anyway). If the ROC does not want to consider revolvers fired last to be staged, the two contradictory definitions should be changed to corroborate each other by using the verbiage "a pistol is considered in hand unless it is dropped or reholstered or transferred to another hand" The definition of a cocked revolver leaving the hand imho needs to remain as it is, so it would just be better all around to allow them to be staged if fired last.

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TW

Not sure where you got: "It has been determined that the gun from a holster is still IN HAND until re-holstered regardless if its 20 feet away on a table."  If a revolver is drawn from a holster it is considered "in hand" from the time it clears the holster until it is re-holstered.  That statement ASSUMES that the shooter draws, fires, and holsters the revolver.  If the shooter draws, fires, and then lays the revolver on a prop - it is no longer "in hand".

 

BS

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1 minute ago, Barry Sloe said:

TW

Not sure where you got: "It has been determined that the gun from a holster is still IN HAND until re-holstered regardless if its 20 feet away on a table."  If a revolver is drawn from a holster it is considered "in hand" from the time it clears the holster until it is re-holstered.  That statement ASSUMES that the shooter draws, fires, and holsters the revolver.  If the shooter draws, fires, and then lays the revolver on a prop - it is no longer "in hand".

 

BS

No, you are incorrect. Barry, your post here confirms you didnt read through the thread. A shooter is awarded a P when he lays a revolver down on the table with a round in it because it is considered in hand still. I recommend you at least reading what pwb said if you cant read the entire thread.

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29 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, you are incorrect. Barry, your post here confirms you didnt read through the thread. A shooter is awarded a P when he lays a revolver down on the table with a round in it because it is considered in hand still. I recommend you at least reading what pwb said if you cant read the entire thread.

As for more clarity. this is in reference to a non GF BW shooter placing a loaded gun on a prop that started in a holster. Also if before the second pistol is fired it can be corrected by finishing the first 5 shoots.

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52 minutes ago, El Muerto Negro said:

As for more clarity. this is in reference to a non GF BW shooter placing a loaded gun on a prop that started in a holster. Also if before the second pistol is fired it can be corrected by finishing the first 5 shoots.

And it being defined as in hand

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