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Duelist vs GF


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Thought I would start this thread so as not to  high-jack another couple of recent threads that has brought up some interesting points in both DD & GF methods.  Lets first establish what was emphasized in other posts, strong side Double Duelists is generally the faster of duelist methods, much to the net gain in transition times in most stages. 

IMO,  the GF and DD both equal in ability with rifle & shotgun and par per shot with revolvers, the GF will win out simply because the category places that shooter shooting both revolvers at same time.  Now here I am speaking of the best of the best of each and as much as I love to see a fast DD, the GF's mental ability to engage a stage the way some do with their revolvers blazing is awesome.  But, where can a DD gain on a GF  ( let's say a GF who is not so fast in par time on revolvers)?  Is holstering both revolvers at same time a disadvantage to this GF? 

An example  stage-- some 16-20 feet from A to C, A to B a good three steps. Scenerio of  left to right, revolvers first (I'm not trying to give edge in shooting order but for example here, two shots on five targets).  If DD shoots right gun first, holsters right quickly as left gun is out and firing, he/she then turns right and as they move they are  holstering on way to long gun at B.  Can they gain on the GF  who struggled a tad in revolver shots?  IMO, the holstering of both guns before move is critical whether it was a DD or this GF in example.  My caution point here is the holstering of that right gun if turn is made to right to soon.  Even with a quick muzzles down before turn to not break 170 with muzzle to outside, didn't the DD who holstered left"inside gun"  on move gain in time?  

 

Hope I made myself clear and can generate some good points pro & con to those interested in DD and GF.  Holstering is certainly a part of overall transitions of a competitive shooter.  The "missed holster" is time, as one has to re-focus on the next "stab"..  the clock is ticking and there is suddenly a mental interruption. 

 

Widder made a valid point in a thread to the DD who was not quick in holstering, that they might consider placing first gun on an available surface if convenient, then holster both as a GF would.  Good idea, but personally, I think I can holster faster and without the interruption of thought that gun could spin on flat surface.  (My thought pattern to cadence and rhythm is fragile.  :D)  Of course if revolvers are shot last I do not have to even holster first (assuming it is dry)....here placing first gun on surface could be a gain for DD.

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Billy you bring up a lot of good points here and I will chime in here to agree with you on a few points and disagree on a few. While I'm not a great Duelists, I do alright. 

 

The Name of the game for any duelists, but especially a "double duelist" is transitions. Your hands should never be idle. In your example above where a duelist needs to transition only a few feet from the pistols to go to their next firearm you comment that they pull their right pistol and then their left and holster on the move to the next firearm. Which pistol I pull the right or left pull first depends on that next firearm. If it is shotgun I'm pulling left pistol first because while I'm shooting right pistol I'm pulling shells from my belt and when I reholster the right my right hand is already at approximately shotgun grip height. If it's rifle next I'm shooting right pistol first and while shooting left pistol I'm reholstering the right and outstretching my arm to grab rifle and shoulder while I reholster left.  The gunfighter in both scenarios is holstering both reguardless of next firearm, this is where the duelist makes up their time on the gunfighter in transitions and the opportunities that they hold. 

 

Now with that being said any man woman or child that works on their craft enough can be faster then the next guy/gal on any given day.  I would never make the assumption that one style is faster then any other.  The examples I give is EOT 2016 and Gunsmoke Midwest regional championship 2017.  A young man by the name of Pecos Nick took 4th overall at EOT that year shooting as a duelist. That's unheard of!  The three above him we're 2 handed shooters.  Billy the Avenger won Gunsmoke as a GF that year. Again incredible! Each of these gents had mastered their craft and pulled together 12 great stages over a few days and come out looking amazing. 

 

Holstering is a big part of our game but if you really work on your skills and you put in the time, energy, and effort nothing can stop you from beating any other style of competitor. 

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The place where a (good) Duelist makes any time over a GF or Traditional shooter is in the performance of concurrent actions. 

Utilizing their free hand grasping the next firearm, pulling shells or holstering while AT THE SAME time firing a pistol. 

 

Whereas the GF or Traditional shooter has both hands occupied with pistols.

 

Some of these concurrent actions are FREE time that two handed shooters do not get.

 

The GF gains an edge on the Traditional shooter by their ability to draw their pistols at the same time - halving the time allocated for drawing. 

This time benefit will be slightly negated by the Duelist who; while having two separate draws; eliminates the time waste by performing some concurrent secondary action at the time of the 2nd draw. 

But the draw time of the GF will still be superior to the time required by a Duelist or Traditional shooter.

 

The act of reholstering for a GF is NEARLY concurrent; but even the very best Gunfighters rarely get both pistols into the holsters at the exact same time.

And no matter how concurrent the action is - the reholstering is still a separate stand alone action that takes X amount of time (because for a GF, in that moment, there is no free hand to be doing any other action at the same time - good Traditional shooters gain an edge here as well) 

 

Every style category has conditions under which it has "some" advantage over another style.

 

The best in each style are always pressing those advantages when they present themselves.

 

It is another layer to the challenge of our game - making the best use of our style choices.

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Great comments guys.  Just what I thought many will find interesting in thread.  Creeker and Clay, you are so "right on" in your points...and thanks Clay for mentioning feats of Nick and Billy...super performances, and great individuals. 

Before I first got "my feet wet" in CAS, not to mention as duelist, my late wife and I were on a visit to Freedom Arms and the home of Wayne and Mariam Baker (around '99).  There we had the pleasure of meeting Handsome Valentine.  We became good friends and perhaps because of his  recent duelist title and the fact that my handgun silhouette shooting actually focused on one hand hold, the category seemed for me.  I often teamed up with one of the top Texas Duelist, Texas  Paladin, so sort of learned from one of the best, but I also began to always check the carts for performance of others in the category at EOT & WR.  Buckskin Frank Leslie, Bull, Durango Kid, Dan Nabitt, & Sasquatch are names that come to mind now but it was not many years until the name Macon Rounds hit the board and I mean EOT Top Twenty- five Over-all list.  Soon the likes of FJT rose to winner's circle and then my  friend Nuttin Graceful, who became first duelist to break into top 10 at EOT as I recall.  An awesome feat and to think Pecos Nick at 4th. WOW.  Even now with the speeds of the GFers and traditional shooters, names like El Muerto Negro and Hair Trigger Hayes show up extremely high on over-all postings.  Great Duelists and Gunfighters are a treat to watch, as are many two-handed shooters, or in my case convenience of watching a CC such as T-Bone Dooley at my home court.   To watch the best in your chosen category is not only a super experience but the knowing most any one of them is open for advice to you just make this sport we love so great.

Keep the comments coming.

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Good topic Billy.

 

From witnessing and some rumors of great Duelist and GFer's, my thoughts are basically the same

as my thinking of the SxS vs the 97.

 

The advantage comes from the shooters practice and training..... with a big plus going towards the

mental aspect once the 'Beep' goes off.

 

There are some darn good Duelist (or DD) who really know how to 'play the stage' that allows

them optimum opportunities to get the most from their transitions, etc.....

With a darn good GF, they also 'play the game' to their optimum with emphasis on such things

like 'lead change'  or  'cross over'.

 

As for my using the SxS and 97 as an example, let me explain:

If a 97 shooter loads over the top, its would seem an advantage if they engaged the targets in a Right to Left

motion.   This technique lets the load port follow the loading hand.   If the over the top shooter

shoots left to right, their loading hand is chasing after the port for each shot.   Just my opinion, but a few

.000's is lost in the Left to Right technique.

 

The opposite goes for the right hand loader.   Engagement of targets in the Left to Right motion would

be the most efficient, because the port and the loading hand are working together to allow the shortest

movements of SG and hand to place subsequent shells in the port for firing. 

The Right to Left motion would have the loading hand chasing after the port for

each shot, therefore the least efficient.

 

When either the Duelist (or DD)  or the GF approaches a stage with the knowledge and ability

that masters their category style, they are truly a treat to watch and shoot with.

 

..........Widder

 

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

 Simple, all being equal in skills, just be lighter , healthier, be able to MOVE faster and all this without shooting faster. 

 Not hard to do ,see it all the time This is not just about shooting faster. IMHO. :FlagAm:

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2 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 This is not just about shooting faster. IMHO. :FlagAm:

 

It is rarely about shooting faster.

Shooting speed is probably only the 3rd or 4th best indicator of performance.

 

SASS has different groups of shooters.

 

The "Elite" of our game...

That group of shooters that have few peers; those that can win overall at Winter Range or EOT (and no one would be shocked).

How many shooters are in that group at any given time?

10 shooters? 15?

 

Then there is the next group of shooters.

Super fast shooters that are right on the heels of that elite group.  May not take the overall; but are likely going to be in the top gun shoot off and winning their category (or darn close).

Probably 200 shooters nationwide.

A lot of clubs have one or two.

Southern Nevada has Quickly Downunder and we still claim Pecos Nick as our own.  

 

Then there is the next group.

Good shooters.

Or as I call them; right mite sudden shooters. 

Shooters who can run a gun and likely won't embarrass themselves at most any match; but are never winning Winter Range or EoT (or maybe even our category).

There are 1000's of these shooters.

I count myself in this group.

 

What's the point?

If you simply and only look at speed events (the shooting).

Me, Creeker; a high average shooter, can run my rifle, my pistols, my shotgun "nearly" as fast as ANY ONE.

The best in the world don't beat me by much.

Maybe a second on the rifle...

Maybe a second and a half on shotgun...

Maybe a second and a half on pistols...

Maybe, and usually not even that; but let's say four seconds difference in shooting.

 

So by that standard - I should be within 40 to 50 seconds of anyone over 12 stages. 

I'm sadly not.

 

My foot speed lacks.

I sometimes fail to see the front site.

My concentration and focus sometimes wanes.

My transitions and movements have NEVER been described as smooth.

There are a dozen reasons and excuses I can make for not being a threat to the elite or almost elites in our game.

 

None of them are about shooting speed.

 

A lot of shooters are fast shooters.

 

Tell me which ones will get thru the entire match smoothly without a shell fumble, brain fart, mistep, rifle jack out or pistol go around...

And Ill tell you who has a really good chance of winning. 

Without ever mentioning or comparing their shooting speed.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
25 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

It is rarely about shooting faster.

Shooting speed is probably only the 3rd or 4th best indicator of performance.

 

SASS has different groups of shooters.

 

The "Elite" of our game...

That group of shooters that have few peers; those that can win overall at Winter Range or EOT (and no one would be shocked).

How many shooters are in that group at any given time?

10 shooters? 15?

 

Then there is the next group of shooters.

Super fast shooters that are right on the heels of that elite group.  May not take the overall; but are likely going to be in the top gun shoot off and winning their category (or darn close).

Probably 200 shooters nationwide.

A lot of clubs have one or two.

Southern Nevada has Quickly Downunder and we still claim Pecos Nick as our own.  

 

Then there is the next group.

Good shooters.

Or as I call them; right mite sudden shooters. 

Shooters who can run a gun and likely won't embarrass themselves at most any match; but are never winning Winter Range or EoT (or maybe even our category).

There are 1000's of these shooters.

I count myself in this group.

 

What's the point?

If you simply and only look at speed events (the shooting).

Me, Creeker; a high average shooter, can run my rifle, my pistols, my shotgun "nearly" as fast as ANY ONE.

The best in the world don't beat me by much.

Maybe a second on the rifle...

Maybe a second and a half on shotgun...

Maybe a second and a half on pistols...

Maybe, and usually not even that; but let's say four seconds difference in shooting.

 

So by that standard - I should be within 40 to 50 seconds of anyone over 12 stages. 

I'm sadly not.

 

My foot speed lacks.

I sometimes fail to see the front site.

My concentration and focus sometimes wanes.

My transitions and movements have NEVER been described as smooth.

There are a dozen reasons and excuses I can make for not being a threat to the elite or almost elites in our game.

 

None of them are about shooting speed.

 

A lot of shooters are fast shooters.

 

Tell me which ones will get thru the entire match smoothly without a shell fumble, brain fart, mistep, rifle jack out or pistol go around...

And Ill tell you who has a really good chance of winning. 

Without ever mentioning or comparing their shooting speed.

YUP! like I said all things being equal  the one who moves faster will win IF, all other factors are the same .This is a song made up of many notes.

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I may try this, since I loose the coolness of transitions like a duelist,,  fire two shots out of my right pistol and then after alternating for the rest, holster the right and go for long gun as I finish the last two shots with the left.....  perhaps the best of two worlds?

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I didn't mean, all five shots, just two,, then alternate for 6 then finish the last two with left,,  unless pistols are last of course,,, and then remember to aim the shotgun at least a lil bit,,, lol  

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4 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

I may try this, since I loose the coolness of transitions like a duelist,,  fire two shots out of my right pistol and then after alternating for the rest, holster the right and go for long gun as I finish the last two shots with the left.....  perhaps the best of two worlds?

Glad to see somebody reads my posts!

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
15 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Glad to see somebody reads my posts!

 I enjoy reading your posts.;) :FlagAm:

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